Religion, suicide terrorism link disputed in book

moghrabi

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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A surge in suicide attacks in Iraq and elsewhere around the world is a response to territorial occupation and has no direct link with Islamic fundamentalism, according to the author of a new book who has created a database of such bombings over the past 25 years.

Robert Pape, associate professor of political science at the University of Chicago, said most suicide terrorists were well-integrated and productive members of their communities from working-class or middle-class backgrounds.

"Technicians, waitresses, security guards, ambulance drivers, paramedics ... few are criminals. Most are volunteers whose first act of violence is their very own suicide attack," Pape told Reuters in an interview.

A broad misunderstanding of the issue, he said, is taking the U.S.-led war on terrorism in the wrong direction and could in fact be fueling an increase in suicide terrorism.

Pape has created what he calls the first comprehensive database on every suicide terrorist attack in the world since 1980, using Arabic, Hebrew, Tamil and Russian-language sources.

The U.S. Departments of Defense and Homeland Security, as well as the U.N. Secretary General's office were looking at the information, he said.

Some insurgent leaders in Iraq have cast suicide attacks in holy-war terms. President Bush has called such attacks a tactic of "enemies of freedom" driven by a "thirst for absolute power."

HOMELANDS

"Islamic fundamentalism is not the primary driver of suicide terrorism," Pape said. "Nearly all suicide terrorist attacks are committed for a secular strategic goal -- to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory the terrorists view as their homeland."

"Yes, it's true we're killing terrorists day by day, but the real measure of suicide terrorism is simply the number of attacks," said Pape. "The problem with suicide terrorism is that it's not supply limited, it's demand-driven."

Pape cited suicide terrorism campaigns from Lebanon to Israel, Chechnya and Sri Lanka, where he said major democracies -- the United States, Israel, France, India, Russia -- had been the principal targets.

In "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism," Pape writes that the world's most prolific suicide terrorist organization is the Tamil Tigers -- a secular, Hindu group in Sri Lanka which he said invented the "suicide belt."

Iraq, he said, was a prime example of strategic terrorism. Prior to the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003 there was "never in Iraq's history a suicide terrorist attack" but since then they had doubled every year.

There has been a sharp escalation in violence, especially suicide attacks, since Iraq's new Shi'ite Islamist-led cabinet was announced in late April. More than 700 Iraqis and 78 U.S. soldiers were killed in bombings and other attacks in May, making it the deadliest month in Iraq since January.

Pape collected demographic information on 462 suicide attackers who completed their missions and said he found that the common wisdom was wrong.

"The standard stereotype of a suicide attacker as a lonely individual on the margins of society with a miserable existence is actually quite far from the truth," he said.

Pape, who has been invited to discuss his analysis with a bipartisan group of U.S. congressmen, said he hoped his book would demonstrate to policymakers that a presumed connection between suicide attacks and Islamic fundamentalism is misleading and could contribute to policies that worsen the situation.

The U.S. government had only "a partial understanding" of what has been driving suicide terrorism because it did not begin collecting data until 2000, Pape said.

"Once you have a more complete picture you can see that the main cause of suicide terrorism is a response to foreign occupation, not Islamic fundamentalism, and the use of heavy combat forces to transform a Muslim society is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists as is now happening."

http://reuters.myway.com//article/2...139_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SECURITY-TERRORISM-DC.html
 

jimmoyer

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That analysis is quite shallow, quite part of the world zeitgeist of thinking.


The Genius terrorist leaders charged with the spirit of the predator, search for their prey. The 20 year old. They ask him to give up his life. They do not give up their own.

It is a sick, cold way overlooked by the world.

Nor do millions of Iraqis find it necessary to shoot themselves in the foot, or commit suicide and homicide on their fellow neighbors, their fellow citizens.

Most would like to stop the bombing of their electric power stations. Most would like to walk to a job with no fear. Most want to have a nice family.

Almost 18 million Iraqis voted, and everyone of them spat at any dead terrorist body parts as they stepped over the parts of the corpse to enter the voting booth.

By the way that's 18 million voters.
That's not 18 million terrorists.

They all have the same reasons and yet why does one choose to do what others don't ?

Why do 18 million proudly show a blue inked finger, but only less than a 100th of a percent prefer to commit suicide and homicide in their neighborhood mosque while bellyaching hours before how the American infidel held a Koran in his left hand?

What kind of shallow psychology refuses to answer that question?

If the hard test is applied to the author's point, then why aren't there 18 million terrorists in that country?

Why are most hating any Saudi or Syrian or Morrocan or Pakistani coming into their country and destroying their homes? Or why are most Iraqis so honorable in holding back from total all-out civil war between the sunnis and shi-ites? Headlines make you think that is happening?

If it really was it would be 500,000 times worse.

They're telling each other to hold back. They are savy that the insurgents want this war between the Sunnis and Shi-ites.

Look again.
 

peapod

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Jun 26, 2004
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predator, search for their prey. The 20 year old. They ask him to give up his life. They do not give up their own.

Just like good old dubya eh? :twisted:
 

jimmoyer

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If you think so, then why aren't you joining the terrorists and helping them persuade another young person to blow up another mosque?

You got the same reasons they got to not help Iraq get on its feet.

Send your 200 Canadians to Dafur to suage your moral integrity.

Oh crap, Peapod, your point stands alone admidst the apparent picture of a nation struggling to get on its feet with no help from the western world ----a world who would have preferred to deal with a psycho that dreamt of being your next Kim of North Korea.
 

peapod

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Oh double crap right back at you jimmy...you send your kiddies to fight your wars to, although they don't strap bombs on themselves...the end result is the same...dead people. Amazing how you always seem to think that "yours" is the high moral ground.

Nah, you won't go after north korea, they got some equally big bombs..it would not be like shooting ducks in gallery. I guess I could have just said

Pot/Kettle
 

annabattler

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Jun 3, 2005
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RE: Religion, suicide ter

The American rationalization for entering Iraq has proven to be false...no weapons of mass destruction.
Equally false is the American bleat of "Iraqi Democracy",as if somehow democracy can be achieved at the end of a gun.
No doubt we in the West do not truly understand suicide bombers. The suicide bombings continue because they are effective, and will likely continue.
 

jimmoyer

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Yes, annabattler and Peapod, yes, and yes and yes.

But !

The real crime is now compounding the original one.
History will look back and take note how the world withheld help.

And history will note all the reasons why the world felt it necessary to not help.

And the suicide bomber knows the world will either look the other way or actually even say the suicide bomber has a right and a reason and that is the sin of the evolved intellectuals on this planet.

You tell yourselves you are better?

At least a million Iraqis won't buy it for a minute.
Especially the ones over 40 who see the young grabbed by the cojones of this world cluster think.
 

peapod

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"Yes, annabattler and Peapod, yes, and yes and yes."

Ehm...were you watching a porno or something there :idea: 8O

I never said we were better, you just think that there is only one side to a coin. Well there are two sides to every story, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. You should be asking yourself why these people are driven to this result, becoming human bombs. Maybe if you could solve that, the bombings would stop. Killing them is not working.

Why does the arab world hate the american government so much? There has to be reasons for such seathing hatred, what do you think the reasons are for that jimmy.
 

moghrabi

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Where were the Islamic fundamentalists before the US invaded Iraq? Why these "terrorists" are active now? How come there were no Islamics fundamentalists in the Arab world (not counting Iran since it is not Arab).

Don't you think the action of the US government has to do with the whole issue. If you come to my house and occupy it by force and with your big gun, I might be tempted to put myself on fire to bring down the whole house on you.
 

jimmoyer

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Where were the fundamentalists before the war?
I refer you to Saddam. Pilgrimages to the holiest site in the Shi-ite world were not allowed. Just like in Russia and Poland where public displays and marches were not allowed, the people silently kept worship. The fundamentalists, the moderates, the worshipers were already there. I suppose the dictatorship that silenced them also silenced them for you, making you not know they were there all the time.

As far as what you would really do or not do, you'll notice that after every police station gets blown up by your favorite terrorists, a 100 more Iraqis sign up for duty, spitting at the suicide corpse that killed their relatives.

As far as what you would really do or not do, you will notice the top TV broadcast is JUSTICE FOR THE TERRORIST.

As far as what you would really do or not do, 18 million Iraqis chose to vote instead of your honorable approach.
 

moghrabi

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There is not much sense in your statements. The Shiite that were oppressed are not the ones supposedly doing the blowing up. it is Sunni insurgency. They are from the same sect as Saddam.

If you read the news lately, the puppet government is having trouble with keeping the men. The police chief in Iraq lately said he trusts only 25% of his men.

You can not have democracy by force or occupation. you will not have peace as long as you interfere illegally with other nations and install their puppets. You will not live in peace as long as you don't let others live in peace. These are the messages I am getting from the insurgents. Get out of their country.

Reasd down:

Basra Out of Control, says Chief of Police

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0531-06.htm
 

moghrabi

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peapod said:
"Yes, annabattler and Peapod, yes, and yes and yes."
Ehm...were you watching a porno or something there :idea: 8O

It does sound like it. Except he is getting his facts about Iraq from the Porno movie.
 

jimmoyer

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LOL, actually you guys oughta know where all the porno movies got that YES from.

James Joyce, ULYSSES.
Whole pages of YES.

We not only got a heavy dose of "stream of consciouness" writing but we also got the great Jungian archetypal impact of a woman saying YES and YES and more YES.

Joyce must have really got his rocks off writing that one.

And now to the rest that computes little to you....

That same Police Chief finds those terrorists to be more the bastard than you do, moghrabi.

And Sistani, the revered leader of the Shi-ites is quite a leader for keeping the Shi-ites for going all out revenge on the Sunnis. Sistani's young rebel that led a Shi-ite insurgency recently came out trying to get the Sunnis to be part of the government. Even al Qaeda messages being sent out are regretting how many fellow Iraqis are being killed, and that the backlash of anger and hate from the fellow Iraqis is not what the insurgency (Sunnis and neighboring foreigners) anticipated.

Hey, guess what happens for Iraq if the terrorism stops?

Take a guess, oh great advocate for the terrorist?
 

moghrabi

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I am not an advocate for terrorits. I am simply an anti-US policy bastard. Like it or not, I prefer to deal with the terrorists in Iraq than dealing your prez in the whitehouse. At least they have way les blood on their hands.

Please next time do not call me names such as a terrorist advocate. This is a board were ideas are shared and debated. When you get personal, this when I know you are losing. Learn to debate rather than fight your way through.
 

jimmoyer

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You need to decide where you stand, moghrabi, about the terrorists. You come very close to being an advocate and I didn't make any of that up, but refer you to what you write. If you prefer to deal with the terrorists, then so do the Iraqis in their way. And the terrorists are clearly bullying the majority of the population, n'est pas?

I'm quite in agreement about much of the anger towards Bush, but I find this anger towards Bush makes you not see what else can be.

High priority is for Bush anger.

High priority should instead be to give this country of Iraq (an arbitrarily drawn one from WWI) a chance now.
 

moghrabi

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I told you where I stand. I support a full withdrawal from Iraq. Paying reparations, having a real democratic elections, getting Bush to answer for his crimes as much as Hussein has to answer to his and so on.

I am a freedom fighter advocate. Not all the people in Iraq are killing Iraqis. I am with the people who choose to fight the illegal occupier.

As for who is bombing mosques and people and so on, I don't doubt the US knows more than we do about who is doing it. Isn't a good thing for the US to have all this turmoil happening so they could stay a little longer. Hey it started in Lebanon. The Guy was killed yesterday and the blame is on Syria but somehow 4 FBI are investigating the scene. I wonder why they are the first at the scene.
 

jimmoyer

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Not all people in Iraq are killing Iraqis?

The percentages of American targets and of fellow Iraqis should make you less glib in that statement.

200 iraqis lined up for a job. Dead. How many headlines have said this? Over 12000 Iraqis killed by the insurgents alone.

You'll work very hard to dilute that point.

Two days ago, yet another mosque in flames by the insurgents. Don't even hold the Koran in your left hand, my friend.

You are too much in the grip of another point of view.

I credit you your condemnation of America. That's a point that no longer interests me, especially since the world has made up its mind and there is no longer any chance of a conversation.

What interests me most is the world letting Iraq hang on its own, for whatever righteous reasons it must muster to make itself feel good.
 

moghrabi

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These 200 Iraqis who ;lined up for a job were warned beforehand not to work with he Americans. They are seen as agents of the US. I am not supporting their killing but explaining the circumstances.

As for mosques being bombed, it is an atmosphere of hatred between Shiites and Sunnis created by the US to have a civil war. This civil war will enable the US to stay in Iraq and have some legitimacy. The US is losing this war so it must find some other way of creating an atmosphere of terror. Civil war is the best. Sunnis will be supported by Syria and Shiites by Iran. They US will stand by and watch the real killing happening.

If we want to see barbaric actions, just look at the US government. Look at their history and the dictators who they supported to have their crimes committed for them. Lets face the truth that the US is the mother of all evil.
 

Twila

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Mar 26, 2003
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RE: Religion, suicide ter

What interests me most is the world letting Iraq hang on its own,

Jimmoyer. What should be done? In your opinion how can it be stopped?