A signal of progress?

[Paco]

Looks like Egypt and Israel are beginning to work together. The two countires swapped prisoners at the Taba checkpoint today.

Egypt freed an Israeli Arab man convicted of spying in exchange for Israel's release of six Egyptian students Sunday, a swap that signaled a warming of relations that had been severely strained by the four-year-old Palestinian uprising. ...

The swap is the second major advance in the past week and seems to show improving relations between Sharon and Mubarak. Mubarak has reportedly said that Sharon (considered a war criminal by most Arabs) represented the Palestinians' best chance for peace. Additionally, he said that if the Palestinians didn't hurry up and come to an agreement with Sharon, they might not see one.

The sudden will of these two countries to work together are the result of; the death of Arafat and the offer of withdrawal from Gaza by Sharon. The withdrawal offer is the most intrepid move by Israel since Barak offered Arafat most of what he demanded, only to be rewarded by a bloody intifada. It would appear the Bush and Sharon administrations chose wisely by refusing to negotiate with Arafat, who never would have conceded anything in negotiations. With the old terrorist gone, even other Arab governments feel free to negotiate with Israel. Arafat's presence obviously prevented any sort of peace.

 

[moghrabi]

I do not think there will ever be peace in the Middle East as long as Sharon (the terrorist) is alive. This move by Mubarak is the result of the White House push on him to do something so as to have the Palestinians start trusting the Americans again. Do not forget that Mubarak is the biggest puppet in the Middle East working full time for GWB. The prisoner released by Egypt is not even an Israeli. He was an Israeli Arab. So you can see the game there.

A year ago, Mubarak dismissed Israel's prime minister as incapable of making peace. Today, he calls Sharon the region's best chance for an end to hostilities.

Mubarak was told what to do so that the US can go back into the negotiating table with their heads up.

As for Barak and Clinton offering Arafat what he demanded, I disagree. They offered him 85% of west bank and 100% of Gaza (which is very fair in my opinion and the opinion of most Arabs). However, he was flatly told to forget about the return of 1948 refugees and about Jerusalem as a future capital.

Let me take the second point first. the problem of Jerusalem could have been solved by dividing the city (Israel refused claiming that the whole of Jerusalem is the future capital of Israel), or have it as an international city such as the Vatican for all religions and all people (also rejected by Israel).

Back to the first point: Telling Arafat to forget about the right of return is like telling him to go and shoot himself in the head. He knew he can't do as such or be killed by his own people. Also, a UN resolution states clearly that these refugees have the right of return. So why blame Arafat for not accepting it. It is a UN resolution and Clinton can not tell the Palestinians that they have no right to return and that they have to live as refugees forever.

One more point for me to add: Why is Israel allowed to have it's own version of right of return (from Europe, Russia etc...) and not the Palestinians. Are they second class people and their rights can be shoved aside?

Arafat presence indeed prevented any sort of peace but there is the other half. Sharon and all Zionists must go before we see any real peace.

 

[Paco]

BEIRUT, Lebanon — Fearful of being left behind, Syrian President Bashar Assad (search) has been saying something quite startling — that he is willing to resume peace talks with Israel (search) unconditionally.

Yet the overtures — documented by visitors including U.N. Mideast envoy Terje Roed-Larsen — are another clear sign of how a virtually dead Middle East peace process has suddenly reached its most hopeful moment in years.

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Hey! Paco

I guess Jesus would be tickled pink over that, eh?

This is the same crap the media gives us every year at Christmas.

Calm

 

[Paco]

Not very optimistic, Calm.

I can look at it with hope. You don't have to.

 

[Just the Facts]

The prisoner released by Egypt is not even an Israeli. He was an Israeli Arab.

I think that right there is the best defense I've ever seen of Israel's refusal to accept the right of return.

 

[moghrabi]

BEIRUT, Lebanon — Fearful of being left behind, Syrian President Bashar Assad (search) has been saying something quite startling — that he is willing to resume peace talks with Israel (search) unconditionally.

Yet the overtures — documented by visitors including U.N. Mideast envoy Terje Roed-Larsen — are another clear sign of how a virtually dead Middle East peace process has suddenly reached its most hopeful moment in years.

I am very aware of this article. Syria will resume talks were they were left off in 2000. The Golan Heights and Tabaria Lake. No Swiss Cheese land and we keep this part and we exchange for something else that Israel is known to do.

 

[moghrabi]

The prisoner released by Egypt is not even an Israeli. He was an Israeli Arab.

I think that right there is the best defense I've ever seen of Israel's refusal to accept the right of return.

I don't get your point there. Can you elaborate.

 

[Just the Facts]

The prisoner released by Egypt is not even an Israeli. He was an Israeli Arab.

I think that right there is the best defense I've ever seen of Israel's refusal to accept the right of return.

I don't get your point there. Can you elaborate.

Yes, you don't consider an Israeli Arab to be an Israeli. Given that sentiment, how can you expect Israel to agree to a mass immigration of people who will never consider themselves Israeli. That would be suicide.

 

[moghrabi]

First, why would I consider an Israeli Arab an Israeli if what we are taking about here is a homeland for the Pals. Even the Israeli Pals don't consider themselves Israelis. They need the damn piece of paper to survive. These are the Pals who refused to leave and stayed within the current borders of Israel.

Now, why would you think Israel will give all the returning Pals a citizenship. That is absured. Israel is refusing to give them basic rights nevermind a citizenship. That would be the suicide you are talking about. The returning Pals will be coming to a Palestinian state with its own borders, government, and people. They will not be returning to be Israelis nor live in Israel.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: A signal of progress?

First, why would I consider an Israeli Arab an Israeli if what we are taking about here is a homeland for the Pals.

My mistake, I thought we were talking about the return of Arabs to their homes that they left in 1948.

They need the damn piece of paper to survive. These are the Pals who refused to leave and stayed within the current borders of Israel.

I've heard tell that the average Arab with that piece of paper enjoys a better standard of living than the average Arab anywhere else in the ME.

The returning Pals will be coming to a Palestinian state with its own borders, government, and people. They will not be returning to be Israelis nor live in Israel.

Which basically supports my conclusion on the whole mess - Palestinians don't want a state, they want Israel. How can anyone expect Sharon to say - "OK, in exchange for peace, we agree to cease existing". That is an unrealistic expectation and is not negotiating in good faith.

Anyway, I don't want to open that whole can of worms again, we've been through it already and we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[moghrabi]

I do respect what you are saying. But you misunderstood what I am saying.

The Peace Process calls for the creation of a state called Palestine which is made of Gaza strip and West Bank. I am not saying that the Israeli cease to exist but give them the land ceased in 1967 to create their own country.

As for the average Pal living in Israel, you are saying they have a better standard of living than anyone in the ME. This is absurd. Have you been to the ME. Have you seen how people live in countries such as Lebanon, Saudi, Bahrain, all of Gulf states.

I was just reading an article about Israelis trying to get any kind of citizenships to relocate because the life in Israel is bad. The economy is collapsing and people have to move around after the Gaza withdrawal.

You said that the Pals do not want a state. They want all of Israel. Why don't you look a bit further and tell me why the settlers are not going to leave the illegal settlements that belong to the Pals. Don't they want all of the land?

 

[Twila]

I've heard tell that the average Arab with that piece of paper enjoys a better standard of living than the average Arab anywhere else in the ME

Are these the same Palistinians who get to have their houses bulldozed on Isreali whim. Who get to stand outside at 3 in the morning for hours on end while Isreali soldiers ransack their house?

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: A signal of progress?

I do respect what you are saying. But you misunderstood what I am saying.

The Peace Process calls for the creation of a state called Palestine which is made of Gaza strip and West Bank. I am not saying that the Israeli cease to exist but give them the land ceased in 1967 to create their own country.

And yet you say they cannot agree to that without right of return. Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but right of return means people currently in Judea and Somaria and Gaza or wherever they may be return to Israel proper, correct? If that's correct then what the peace process calls for as you describe above has been offered to the Palestinians. You explained to me that it was rejected on the issue of right of return. I am very confused.

As for the average Pal living in Israel, you are saying they have a better standard of living than anyone in the ME.

No, I'm saying I've heard that to be the case. If it's not so then it's not so. <shrug>

Why don't you look a bit further and tell me why the settlers are not going to leave the illegal settlements that belong to the Pals. Don't they want all of the land?

The settler's can want whatever they want, they aren't making the decisions. They are being forced to leave Gaza if I'm not mistaken. If Judea and Somaria and Gaza become a Palestinian state then the settlers will choose between leaving or living in Palestine under Palestinian rule. What's the big deal, there are over a million Arabs in Israel, will they all be forced to move to Palestine when a state is formed? I doubt it. Why are a few Jewish settlers in Palestine so offensive?

Either way, the issue of the settler's has no bearing on the original point, that the PA doesn't care about a state, except as a step towards the annihlation of Israel. Just because there are zionists who are equally aggressive and misguided doesn't change that.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: A signal of progress?

I've heard tell that the average Arab with that piece of paper enjoys a better standard of living than the average Arab anywhere else in the ME

Are these the same Palistinians who get to have their houses bulldozed on Isreali whim. Who get to stand outside at 3 in the morning for hours on end while Isreali soldiers ransack their house?

Umm, no. Read. Thank you.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

The Right to Return doesn't seem realistic to me. What problems will it solve? And better, how many new problems will arise? Talking about compensation is something else though. The problem of Right of Return is not unique to Israel/Palestine by the way. What about the Polish Germans and Poland? What about Native Americans and Native Canadians and their claims? What about Hungarian claims, or all those other nations and groups who claim land under the umbrella of the Right to Return? Sadly enough, this is not a case of "justice"; this is a case of reality.

Why are a few Jewish settlers in Palestine so offensive?

Those "few" Jewish settlers (350,000 on the Westbank, including parts of Eastern Jerusalem) do occupy a large part of the Westbank. Just look at the map.

 

[Just the Facts]

Those "few" Jewish settlers (350,000 on the Westbank, including parts of Eastern Jerusalem) do occupy a large part of the Westbank.

Granted, but given the creation of a Palestinian state I assume they would be under Palestinian rule. I don't believe it's been proposed that settlements have their own sovereignty. Stranger things have happened though, I guess. :?

I suspect all but the most adament zionists would leave. I suspect also, that the latter would not last long. It would be a tremendous step towards lasting peace, however, if Jews could live in Palestine with the same rights and privileges of citizenship that Arab Israeli's enjoy in Israel. Am I dreaming?

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

You are forgetting a crucial part Just the Facts: I don't think you will find many Jewish settlers who are willing to live in a Palestinian state - hell no! But meanwhile, and that's the crucial part, I don't think you will find a lot of colonists either who will leave the settlements. They say it's their G-d's given right to live there.

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: A signal of progress?

You are forgetting a crucial part Just the Facts: I don't think you will find many Jewish settlers who are willing to live in a Palestinian state - hell no! But meanwhile, and that's the crucial part, I don't think you will find a lot of colonists either who will leave the settlements. They say it's their G-d's given right to live there.

So that's one vote for Yes, I'm dreaming.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

I don't think that it will be realistic to think - sadly enough - that the settlements on the Westbank will disappear somewhere soon. The colonists have threatened with a civil war when that happens, and I think most Israelis in that case prefer an enemy from the "outside" (suicide bombers) than from the "inside".