The end of US democracy?

[Haggis McBagpipe]

US Democracy nearing an end?

Do you think the potential exists for democracy to end as a result of another large-scale attack on US soil? Would the US Constitution, as has been suggested by many, be shelved?

 

[researchok]

Good questions.

Firstly, there is no real will for anything other than democracy here (save fringe elemenst on left or right), attack or no attack.

Secondly, the constitution wouldnt be suspended- it would be the Bill of Rights-- a VERY important distinction. Though intertwined in many ways, they are mutually exclusive.

 

[crash]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Well, there's always unfortunately a battle between security and individual rights.

I would be really surprised to see a situation where American's rights were completely suspended, across the nation. Though I feel a day is coming soon where we see a situation like we did in Quebec with the war measures act.

The constitution of the United States is too strong for a simple terrorist attack to destroy it IMHO. I am no expert in the United States but I don't believe, even in times of total war on their own soil has the president been handed unilateral power and I doubt it would happen now.

 

[American Voice]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Do you think the potential exists for democracy to end as a result of another large-scale attack on US soil? Would the US Constitution, as has been suggested by many, be shelved?

You don't specify the nature of the attack, but I am assuming you mean a terrorist attack. I am anticipating, perhaps, suicide bombers in New York during the Republican Convention. While it would be a horror, the consequences for democracy would be a strengthening of it, as people closed ranks.

The largest attack against the United Stated occurred in Maryland, in September of 1862. Lee's Maryland campaign. I am proud to say my great grandfather was there with his regiment, who drew first blood at South Mountain, and distinguished themselves on the field two days later, at Antietam. I have been researching his biography for several years. He kept a war diary, the original of which, as well as a typewritten transcription, are kept at the Hayes Presidential Center, up in Fremont. This reminds me, I need to make an appointment to go up and see it. A newspaperman and attorney by vocation and trade, I don't doubt but that he recorded his views on your very question, Haggis.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Americans, although they loudly proclaim a love of freedom and the 'American Way of Life', seem quite willing to strip away freedom when it suits a political agenda. Americans say they believe in democracy, but do they understand what it is?

Have Americans lost sight of what it is to be free? Easy to offer platitudes about freedom, but don't you have to understand the concept of true democracy to embrace and protect it?

 

[American Voice]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

I think the essential point about democracy is that it is an organic phenomenon. It will occur spontaneously among people of good sense and good will. That may sound naive, but democracy is of the natural order of things, and thrives where not suppressed.

Haggis, have you ever seen James Madison's essay, No. 10, among The Federalist Papers? I highly recommend it as essential reading, for an understanding of politics and democracy. In my opinion, Madison deserves the tallest monument in DC, but has none there at all.

 

[researchok]

I dont think terror is an agenda.

On 9/10, 2001, this wasnt even on the radar.

Democratic countries define themselves at the ballot box-- for example, there are hard core socialist democracies and every variety between that and pure market society. One variety over another is what works for that society-- no more, no less.

As long as there is access to the ballot box, democracies will continue to define themselves.

Freedom comes in all flavours.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Tommy Franks, in an interview with Cigar Afficiando magazine, did mention the possibility of suspending the US elections if there was another terrorist attack though. To me it sounded like he was sending up a trial balloon...testing the waters. I never heard a huge negative outcry from the American people and the story was never picked up by a major press outlet.

The Patriot Act was pushed through without too much opposition at all, and it is very much a rights-raping piece of crap that should have incited the American people to try its authors for treason and vicious stupidity.

I really don't have a lot of hope for American democracy in its present form. I think the leaders of the US more and more come from an elite class of people (look at the presidential candidates) and understand what democracy is really all about less and less.

If reforms, big ones, aren't made very soon I fear that the USA may lose its democracy all together.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

t should have incited the American people to try its authors for treason and vicious stupidity.

And this is precisely what worries me. Instead of being enraged at these freedom-thieves, Americans are instead enraged at the so-called 'anti-American' rhetoric of those who do oppose it. Americans are being sold on something that is wrong, and in the name of fear, they are turning off the critical thinking and turning on the patriotic fervour.

 

[American Voice]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Oh, fuddleduds! You Canadians, far from being like vichysoisses, are so easily stirred up. The Department of Homeland Security is nothing more than a grandiose pork-barrel scheme. The Patriot Act is a concern, but I don't lay awake at night worrying.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Oh, fuddleduds! You Canadians, far from being like vichysoisses, are so easily stirred up. The Department of Homeland Security is nothing more than a grandiose pork-barrel scheme. The Patriot Act is a concern, but I don't lay awake at night worrying.

Well, maybe you should. Maybe Canadians are the real defenders of feedom, not Americans, since we do worry about the loss of it.

 

[American Voice]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

I hate the word freedom. I prefer the word liberty.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

I hate the word freedom. I prefer the word liberty.

Why?

 

[American Voice]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Liberty is guarunteed by authority. Freedom is all to often a ploy that plays upon an ignorant aversion to authority, used to deny liberty, and to furtively promote racketeering as compensation. Speeches at the Republican convention are always peppered with the word freedom. At the Democratic convention, the speeches are salted with the word liberty.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Thank you for the clarification. I do see what you mean now. I like it.

 

[crash]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

The difference between freedom and liberty are semantical by definition.

Surely, anyone who knows what the patriot act includes is opposed to it and is rightfully so.

To say as if that this means that the degradation of American democracy is imminent is foolish.

Americans have inalienable rights to democracy regardless of the patriot act or any other act that can be passed by democracy and or the president.

The mere fact that we are having a debate on who will be the next president of the United States (one party of which is naturally very opposed to the patroit act) should speak of the durability of American democracy.

Perhaps we might be able to dig up some type of formula that proves American presidential candidates are becoming increasingly and relatively more wealthy than in the past. However, I would say that American presidential candidates are as detatched from the general public as they have been for the indefinate past.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

To say as if that this means that the degradation of American democracy is imminent is foolish.

Americans have inalienable rights to democracy regardless of the patriot act or any other act that can be passed by democracy and or the president.

The mere fact that we are having a debate on who will be the next president of the United States (one party of which is naturally very opposed to the patroit act) should speak of the durability of American democracy.

Crash, why do you assume there will be an election?

Why do you think those rights to democracy cannot be snatched away in a state of martial law? And maybe accidentally forgotten to be returned?

If Americans don't believe they can lose their freedom, they will.

 

[American Voice]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Haggis, calm down.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

Haggis, calm down.

Calm down? What an incredibly stupid thing to say.

 

[American Voice]

Re: US Democracy nearing an end?

You are clealy overreacting, that's all. I meant no disrespect. The threats to American democracy are internal, yes, but they are also local. Organized crime and the subversion of law enforcement, predicated upon the curruption of civil authority, as well as the subversion of the courts, these are the threat. We must be vigilant locally to protect liberty collectively. You ought to read that essay by Madison, he provides a brilliant insight into this very issue. It's all about competing interests. He had a Ghandi-esque insight into human nature, Madison did. I can give you a couple of titles, if you like.

Please, don't ever suppose that I have anything less than respect for you and your point of view. It hurts me when you doubt it.