Council Member
Posts: 4,490 
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
July 10th, 2004, 04:54 PM
By Megan Goldin
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel has asked Washington to block any U.N. Security Council resolution that would act on Friday's World Court ruling that Israel's West Bank barrier is illegal, Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said Saturday.
"The issue will go to the Security Council because the (Palestinians) can muster an automatic majority in the U.N. General Assembly," Shalom told Israel Radio.
He said he had just spent a week in the United States trying to stop the "all out party" he expected the Palestinians to seek to arrange at the Security Council. "I am therefore assuming ... that there is a good chance there will be a veto," he added.
The World Court, the U.N.'s highest tribunal, issued a non-binding opinion that the partially built barrier, which cuts into the West Bank, should be dismantled. Only the 15-nation Security Council can take action on the ruling, but as a permanent member, Israel's ally the United States can veto it.
Palestinian President Yasser Arafat hailed the court's decision, saying it "was a sign that the world supports the Palestinians in rejecting this wall."
"This wall cannot be imposed on us and this wall will ... be removed," he said at his West Bank headquarters.
Israel has said the ruling is invalid because it fails to address its stated reason it built the barrier -- to keep Palestinian suicide bombers out of its cities where they have killed hundreds of people.
Palestinians call the barrier an "apartheid wall" that will deny them a viable state and has separated thousands from fields, schools and hospitals. Officials said they would demand the Security Council take action.
But U.S. officials made clear they opposed U.N. involvement.
"We do not believe that that's the appropriate forum to resolve what is a political issue," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan, adding it should be tackled through an internationally-backed "road map" to peace.
As the row over the ruling continued, a 16-year-old Palestinian girl was killed by army gunfire near the Gaza-Egypt border, medics said. Military sources said they knew of no such shooting by Israeli troops.
Haneen Abu Samhadana was in her flat when gunfire penetrated the window, hitting her in the chest, her sister said.
Later, four Palestinians were killed when a car exploded in central Gaza in an incident Palestinian security officials blamed on Israel. Israeli military officials denied involvement.
CALL TO "PUNISH ISRAEL"
In the West Bank, Arafat's adviser Nabil Abu Rdainah said the Palestinians would use the decision to push the Security Council and General Assembly -- which requested the ruling -- to "isolate and punish" Israel.
"It is the responsibility of the United Nations to put in place a mechanism to commit Israel to this decision," Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie told reporters.
The World Court said Israel must pull down the barrier and pay compensation to those who had lost their homes and land.
"The wall ... cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security," its head, Shi Jiuyong of China, said.
The court said the barrier -- mostly razor-tipped fences but with portions of cement walls -- "severely impeded" Palestinian rights to self-rule.
Israel has already vowed to keep building the 600-km (370-mile) barrier, which is about one-third complete. It says the barrier has already prevented scores of suicide bombings.
The planned route curves around Jewish settlements deep in the West Bank, occupied by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's spokesman Raanan Gissin called the ruling unjust and said it "will find its place in the garbage can of history."
Israel's High Court ruled last week that Israel had the right to build a barrier in the West Bank on security grounds, but in a precedent-setting decision said parts of the structure must be rerouted to minimize Palestinian hardship.
Sharon later ordered segments of the barrier to be altered.
By Megan Goldin
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel has asked Washington to block any U.N. Security Council resolution that would act on Friday's World Court ruling that Israel's West Bank barrier is illegal, Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said Saturday.
"The issue will go to the Security Council because the (Palestinians) can muster an automatic majority in the U.N. General Assembly," Shalom told Israel Radio.
He said he had just spent a week in the United States trying to stop the "all out party" he expected the Palestinians to seek to arrange at the Security Council. "I am therefore assuming ... that there is a good chance there will be a veto," he added.
The World Court, the U.N.'s highest tribunal, issued a non-binding opinion that the partially built barrier, which cuts into the West Bank, should be dismantled. Only the 15-nation Security Council can take action on the ruling, but as a permanent member, Israel's ally the United States can veto it.
Palestinian President Yasser Arafat hailed the court's decision, saying it "was a sign that the world supports the Palestinians in rejecting this wall."
"This wall cannot be imposed on us and this wall will ... be removed," he said at his West Bank headquarters.
Israel has said the ruling is invalid because it fails to address its stated reason it built the barrier -- to keep Palestinian suicide bombers out of its cities where they have killed hundreds of people.
Palestinians call the barrier an "apartheid wall" that will deny them a viable state and has separated thousands from fields, schools and hospitals. Officials said they would demand the Security Council take action.
But U.S. officials made clear they opposed U.N. involvement.
"We do not believe that that's the appropriate forum to resolve what is a political issue," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan, adding it should be tackled through an internationally-backed "road map" to peace.
As the row over the ruling continued, a 16-year-old Palestinian girl was killed by army gunfire near the Gaza-Egypt border, medics said. Military sources said they knew of no such shooting by Israeli troops.
Haneen Abu Samhadana was in her flat when gunfire penetrated the window, hitting her in the chest, her sister said.
Later, four Palestinians were killed when a car exploded in central Gaza in an incident Palestinian security officials blamed on Israel. Israeli military officials denied involvement.
CALL TO "PUNISH ISRAEL"
In the West Bank, Arafat's adviser Nabil Abu Rdainah said the Palestinians would use the decision to push the Security Council and General Assembly -- which requested the ruling -- to "isolate and punish" Israel.
"It is the responsibility of the United Nations to put in place a mechanism to commit Israel to this decision," Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie told reporters.
The World Court said Israel must pull down the barrier and pay compensation to those who had lost their homes and land.
"The wall ... cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security," its head, Shi Jiuyong of China, said.
The court said the barrier -- mostly razor-tipped fences but with portions of cement walls -- "severely impeded" Palestinian rights to self-rule.
Israel has already vowed to keep building the 600-km (370-mile) barrier, which is about one-third complete. It says the barrier has already prevented scores of suicide bombings.
The planned route curves around Jewish settlements deep in the West Bank, occupied by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's spokesman Raanan Gissin called the ruling unjust and said it "will find its place in the garbage can of history."
Israel's High Court ruled last week that Israel had the right to build a barrier in the West Bank on security grounds, but in a precedent-setting decision said parts of the structure must be rerouted to minimize Palestinian hardship.
Sharon later ordered segments of the barrier to be altered.
Council Member
Posts: 4,490
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
July 10th, 2004, 04:55 PM
Little baby Israel is asking daddy to protect it. What a bunch of crock. Why do they protect Israel and go after everyone else? Is this world democracy that some countries get punished and some do whatever the hell they want to do. If this stays up like this, there will never be peace in the ME and no one can blame the terrorists after that. I know terrorising is very bad and should not happen, but what do the palastinians have to lose. Everything is taken away from them. They go and cut their trees, demolish their homes, arrest their men and the US is looking the other way. But if another country in the ME does anything close to that, the US will bomb the hell of them in the name of democracy.
If this is democracy, I do not want anything to do with it.
Little baby Israel is asking daddy to protect it. What a bunch of crock. Why do they protect Israel and go after everyone else? Is this world democracy that some countries get punished and some do whatever the hell they want to do. If this stays up like this, there will never be peace in the ME and no one can blame the terrorists after that. I know terrorising is very bad and should not happen, but what do the palastinians have to lose. Everything is taken away from them. They go and cut their trees, demolish their homes, arrest their men and the US is looking the other way. But if another country in the ME does anything close to that, the US will bomb the hell of them in the name of democracy.
If this is democracy, I do not want anything to do with it.
Council Member
Posts: 4,490
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
July 10th, 2004, 05:42 PM
I wonder how Israel will be down the list. They murder by the thousands. Everyday you read about 5 - 10 people shot including children and women. The PA had no choice but to fight until both of them get the same treatment from junior and his elk. the PA has the right to live on their land as much as anybody else.
The question here is not whether they are fighting the wrong war. The question is why does Israel get a different treatment from the US. Why does Israel get the US to veto whatever resolutions become against it. Isn't the Jewish lobby that is running the US. That is the questions. The PA made many mistakes but that does not give Israel the right to deal with a whole population that way.
Another question: Are they repeating what the Nazis did to them?
I wonder how Israel will be down the list. They murder by the thousands. Everyday you read about 5 - 10 people shot including children and women. The PA had no choice but to fight until both of them get the same treatment from junior and his elk. the PA has the right to live on their land as much as anybody else.
The question here is not whether they are fighting the wrong war. The question is why does Israel get a different treatment from the US. Why does Israel get the US to veto whatever resolutions become against it. Isn't the Jewish lobby that is running the US. That is the questions. The PA made many mistakes but that does not give Israel the right to deal with a whole population that way.
Another question: Are they repeating what the Nazis did to them?
July 10th, 2004, 05:48 PM
That's what I ask myself, too, moghrabi. I'm not Israeli, I'm not Arab, I'm not palestinian. I've actually never visited the region. I have friends from many races.
What I see as someone watching from the sidelines is pure hypocrisy. Israeli/Jews are constantly complaining about how they were treated in WWII, but many of them either a) participate in or b) agree with the similar treatment of Palestinians or Arabs in general. This is not to say that every Jew is a Zionist or Pro-Israel to any extent, because many realise the true meaning and real effects of Zionism...
I just wish I could find that essay I read a year ago on Jews against Zionism.
Quoting
Another question: Are they repeating what the Nazis did to them?
That's what I ask myself, too, moghrabi. I'm not Israeli, I'm not Arab, I'm not palestinian. I've actually never visited the region. I have friends from many races.
What I see as someone watching from the sidelines is pure hypocrisy. Israeli/Jews are constantly complaining about how they were treated in WWII, but many of them either a) participate in or b) agree with the similar treatment of Palestinians or Arabs in general. This is not to say that every Jew is a Zionist or Pro-Israel to any extent, because many realise the true meaning and real effects of Zionism...
I just wish I could find that essay I read a year ago on Jews against Zionism.
Council Member
Posts: 4,490
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
July 10th, 2004, 05:54 PM
I agree that not all Jews are zionists. But I do think that they are treating the whole world the same way the Nazis treated them. Their claim is: Hey, look what happened to us. We were burnt by Hitler and so on. But this does not give them the right to treat other people the same way. To the contrary, I think people who went through this should learn the lessons and avoid nazi like behavior.
Still the question at large is: Why does the US always block UN resolutions against Israel? I really would like to find a good and clear answer to this.
I agree that not all Jews are zionists. But I do think that they are treating the whole world the same way the Nazis treated them. Their claim is: Hey, look what happened to us. We were burnt by Hitler and so on. But this does not give them the right to treat other people the same way. To the contrary, I think people who went through this should learn the lessons and avoid nazi like behavior.
Still the question at large is: Why does the US always block UN resolutions against Israel? I really would like to find a good and clear answer to this.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,103
July 10th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Depends how you measure.
If youre referring to the number of deaths, Israel is way down that list.
Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Congo, Sudan, Mauritania, etc etc, have far more egregious human rights violation. By comparison, Israel isnt in the same list.
In addition, comparing Israel to the Nazis is absurd.
The occupation, such as it is, has beeen the most benign occupation in history, by any standard of measurement. Iknow thats not PC nowadays, but its true.
Prior to 67-- a war started when Egypt and Syria kicked out UN peacekeepers, massed troops along Israels borders, blockaded the Guld of Aqaba (an act of war in itself) and promised 'rivers of blood'-- there was lomited electricity, infrastructure, health care and education. The Isreali occupation changed all that.
Now, Im not defending the occupation-- let me make that clear-- but since 67, the offer of land for peace has been on the table.
In truth, the Palestinians got screwed by the Khartoum Declaration of 68-- which turned down all offers of negotiation and vowed only military solutions-- this done prior to PA authority ceded to them by Egypt and Jordan.
That was exacrebated by PA corruption, now rampant. Th ecorruption was so deep that PA leaders couldnt AFFORD peace-- theyd be giving up a billion dollar gravy train.
Anyway, its an interesting topic.
More on this if youre interested.
Depends how you measure.
If youre referring to the number of deaths, Israel is way down that list.
Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Congo, Sudan, Mauritania, etc etc, have far more egregious human rights violation. By comparison, Israel isnt in the same list.
In addition, comparing Israel to the Nazis is absurd.
The occupation, such as it is, has beeen the most benign occupation in history, by any standard of measurement. Iknow thats not PC nowadays, but its true.
Prior to 67-- a war started when Egypt and Syria kicked out UN peacekeepers, massed troops along Israels borders, blockaded the Guld of Aqaba (an act of war in itself) and promised 'rivers of blood'-- there was lomited electricity, infrastructure, health care and education. The Isreali occupation changed all that.
Now, Im not defending the occupation-- let me make that clear-- but since 67, the offer of land for peace has been on the table.
In truth, the Palestinians got screwed by the Khartoum Declaration of 68-- which turned down all offers of negotiation and vowed only military solutions-- this done prior to PA authority ceded to them by Egypt and Jordan.
That was exacrebated by PA corruption, now rampant. Th ecorruption was so deep that PA leaders couldnt AFFORD peace-- theyd be giving up a billion dollar gravy train.
Anyway, its an interesting topic.
More on this if youre interested.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
July 10th, 2004, 11:29 PM
The US, by defending Israel and only Israel is making things worse...not better. The so-called roadmap to peace is a tattered rag laying alongside the highway.
To draw up a new map the US has to begin dealing with all parties fairly through the UN. That means going back to the pre-1967 borders, pulling out all of the settlers, tearing down that ridiculous and dangerous wall, and calling both sides to account for their crimes. At that point the Israelis and the Palestinians can actully begin talking and start sorting things out.
The US, if it wants to make an progress at all, needs to support action against the wall. There is little doubt that they'll veto anything that even smells of not fully supporting the crimes of Israel. Their veto should be removed because they abuse it.
The US, by defending Israel and only Israel is making things worse...not better. The so-called roadmap to peace is a tattered rag laying alongside the highway.
To draw up a new map the US has to begin dealing with all parties fairly through the UN. That means going back to the pre-1967 borders, pulling out all of the settlers, tearing down that ridiculous and dangerous wall, and calling both sides to account for their crimes. At that point the Israelis and the Palestinians can actully begin talking and start sorting things out.
The US, if it wants to make an progress at all, needs to support action against the wall. There is little doubt that they'll veto anything that even smells of not fully supporting the crimes of Israel. Their veto should be removed because they abuse it.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,103
July 10th, 2004, 11:40 PM
Cessation of violence.
Recognition of the need for secure borders for all parties
A non corrupt PA that can actually deal....
at a minimum, thats the starting point.
Quoting
I dont necessarily disagree-- but until the basic conditions are met, its a catch 22.
The US, by defending Israel and only Israel is making things worse...not better. The so-called roadmap to peace is a tattered rag laying alongside the highway.
To draw up a new map the US has to begin dealing with all parties fairly through the UN. That means going back to the pre-1967 borders, pulling out all of the settlers, tearing down that ridiculous and dangerous wall, and calling both sides to account for their crimes. At that point the Israelis and the Palestinians can actully begin talking and start sorting things out.
The US, if it wants to make an progress at all, needs to support action against the wall. There is little doubt that they'll veto anything that even smells of not fully supporting the crimes of Israel. Their veto should be removed because they abuse it.
To draw up a new map the US has to begin dealing with all parties fairly through the UN. That means going back to the pre-1967 borders, pulling out all of the settlers, tearing down that ridiculous and dangerous wall, and calling both sides to account for their crimes. At that point the Israelis and the Palestinians can actully begin talking and start sorting things out.
The US, if it wants to make an progress at all, needs to support action against the wall. There is little doubt that they'll veto anything that even smells of not fully supporting the crimes of Israel. Their veto should be removed because they abuse it.
Cessation of violence.
Recognition of the need for secure borders for all parties
A non corrupt PA that can actually deal....
at a minimum, thats the starting point.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
July 11th, 2004, 12:45 AM
You won't achieve a PA that can deal until the wall is gone and the borders are back to pre-1967 though. That's a baseline for anything to happen.
I'm unconvinced that either side actually wants peace, but that can't be changed until both sides are at a table so they can actually talk to each other.
You won't achieve a PA that can deal until the wall is gone and the borders are back to pre-1967 though. That's a baseline for anything to happen.
I'm unconvinced that either side actually wants peace, but that can't be changed until both sides are at a table so they can actually talk to each other.
Newbie
Posts: 29
Location: Fraser Valley, British Columbia
Location: Fraser Valley, British Columbia
July 11th, 2004, 12:49 AM
"In addition, comparing Israel to the Nazis is absurd.
The occupation, such as it is, has beeen the most benign occupation in history, by any standard of measurement. Iknow thats not PC nowadays, but its true. "
Absurd? Benign? Where the hell do you get your information? I find myself questioning your intellectual acuity.
Pehaps you'd like to test your declarations by volunteering to go live with the Palestinians as a Palestinian and report back.
What people are saying--now read VERY, VERY carefully.......is that the Jewish people having suffered unspeakable crimes themselves at the hands of the Nazis should be the very ones who look for other methods to resolve their differences. As the good doctor (see below) points out, Israel is a proponent of torture and quite regularly subjects its Palestinian prisoners to torture.
No country or person has the right to engage in such practices. Such behaviour is reprehensible whether it's done to one or to millions. To talk numbers is insane.
Torture is torture is torture. Try being on the receiving end.
With a handle such as yours you might want to broaden your scope of reading to include the following. You might also check out some of the late Edward Said's pennings. Above all, don't be in such a hurry to give the Israelis a pass. In fact, don't give a pass to any country who engages in human right abuses.
June 9, 2004
Nearly Half of Palestinian Adult Males Have Spent Time in Israeli Prisons Since 1967
Israel's Common Use of Torture Must be Exposed
By MUSTAFA BARGHOUTHI
The pictures of American soldiers torturing prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq have shocked the world. To the Palestinian people however, these photographs of hooded or naked figures come as no surprise. For the tens of thousands of Palestinians who have served time in Israeli prisons, the pictures only bring back memories of their own torture.
In many cases, the treatment of Iraqis in Abu Ghraib bears a striking resemblance to Israeli methods of torture. Accusations are now being made in the world's press that Israeli security officers have actually assisted in the training of private US security contractors being sent to Iraq.
Regardless of whether there is any truth to these allegations, the world must recognize that torture is commonplace in Israel. It is not enough to condemn the actions of these American soldiers while ignoring the systematic human rights abuses imposed upon the Palestinian people.
Like the United States, Israel lays claim to the highest moral standards, yet it is apparent that there are elements within the Israeli Armed Forces and indeed government for whom torture is a necessary and acceptable weapon. The two nations' refusal to accept the legitimacy of the International Criminal Court can only enhance the suspicion that these two countries wish to legitimize the torture of prisoners without ever being held to account by those they abuse.
An Israeli High Court ruling on Sept. 6, 1999 prohibited a number of torture techniques. However, these methods were not completely outlawed. Instead the court's ruling still allows the Knesset to enact laws that would give intelligence officers the authority to use such methods. The court deemed the security situation faced by Israel to be grave enough to merit granting intelligence services the power to torture.
Now, the excuse that every Palestinian is a "ticking bomb" gives the Israeli security forces carte blanche to abuse any prisoners in their care, including children. Human rights groups maintain that the use of torture in Israeli prisons has increased and become more systematic over the past two years. Violations of the United Nations Convention Against Torture are now commonplace as the military grip on the Occupied Territories has been tightened.
The Israeli Army and police also receive the unconditional backing of the country's legal system, perpetuating the culture that they can act with impunity in Israeli prisons. The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) has found that the Israeli attorney general has approved every case of torture as a necessary security measure. The High Court has rejected every single one of the 124 petitions submitted by PCATI against prisoners being denied access to legal support.
The thousands of statements given by former Palestinian prisoners bear witness to the relish with which their Israeli tormentors went about their task. Just as in Iraq, any humiliation or abuse is permissible if it goes under the spurious banner of security. The casual disregard for human dignity and international law within the Israeli Army and police is despicable.
Despite all the evidence to the contrary, including the death or maiming of numerous Palestinian prisoners, Israel continues to deny that torture is used in its prisons. Over 7,000 Palestinian prisoners currently remain in Israeli prisons, many of them held without charge or trial. Most will have suffered some degree of torture before their release. It is shocking to realize that around 650,000 Palestinians have spent time in Israeli custody since 1967, most of them adult males. This means that almost one in two Palestinian adult males has been imprisoned.
The torture in Abu Ghraib prison has shaken the Bush administration to its very core. Photographic evidence is all that is lacking to finally expose and condemn Israel's barbaric treatment of its Palestinian prisoners. This is the only difference between the two cases, yet the weight of evidence against Israel, in the testimonies of former prisoners and investigations by human rights organizations, is overwhelming. It is not enough to condemn the actions of American soldiers in Iraqi jails while thousands of Palestinians continue to suffer. Israel's use of torture must also be exposed.
Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi is the Secretary-General of the Palestinian National Initiative. He lives in Ramallah
"In addition, comparing Israel to the Nazis is absurd.
The occupation, such as it is, has beeen the most benign occupation in history, by any standard of measurement. Iknow thats not PC nowadays, but its true. "
Absurd? Benign? Where the hell do you get your information? I find myself questioning your intellectual acuity.
Pehaps you'd like to test your declarations by volunteering to go live with the Palestinians as a Palestinian and report back.
What people are saying--now read VERY, VERY carefully.......is that the Jewish people having suffered unspeakable crimes themselves at the hands of the Nazis should be the very ones who look for other methods to resolve their differences. As the good doctor (see below) points out, Israel is a proponent of torture and quite regularly subjects its Palestinian prisoners to torture.
No country or person has the right to engage in such practices. Such behaviour is reprehensible whether it's done to one or to millions. To talk numbers is insane.
Torture is torture is torture. Try being on the receiving end.
With a handle such as yours you might want to broaden your scope of reading to include the following. You might also check out some of the late Edward Said's pennings. Above all, don't be in such a hurry to give the Israelis a pass. In fact, don't give a pass to any country who engages in human right abuses.
June 9, 2004
Nearly Half of Palestinian Adult Males Have Spent Time in Israeli Prisons Since 1967
Israel's Common Use of Torture Must be Exposed
By MUSTAFA BARGHOUTHI
The pictures of American soldiers torturing prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq have shocked the world. To the Palestinian people however, these photographs of hooded or naked figures come as no surprise. For the tens of thousands of Palestinians who have served time in Israeli prisons, the pictures only bring back memories of their own torture.
In many cases, the treatment of Iraqis in Abu Ghraib bears a striking resemblance to Israeli methods of torture. Accusations are now being made in the world's press that Israeli security officers have actually assisted in the training of private US security contractors being sent to Iraq.
Regardless of whether there is any truth to these allegations, the world must recognize that torture is commonplace in Israel. It is not enough to condemn the actions of these American soldiers while ignoring the systematic human rights abuses imposed upon the Palestinian people.
Like the United States, Israel lays claim to the highest moral standards, yet it is apparent that there are elements within the Israeli Armed Forces and indeed government for whom torture is a necessary and acceptable weapon. The two nations' refusal to accept the legitimacy of the International Criminal Court can only enhance the suspicion that these two countries wish to legitimize the torture of prisoners without ever being held to account by those they abuse.
An Israeli High Court ruling on Sept. 6, 1999 prohibited a number of torture techniques. However, these methods were not completely outlawed. Instead the court's ruling still allows the Knesset to enact laws that would give intelligence officers the authority to use such methods. The court deemed the security situation faced by Israel to be grave enough to merit granting intelligence services the power to torture.
Now, the excuse that every Palestinian is a "ticking bomb" gives the Israeli security forces carte blanche to abuse any prisoners in their care, including children. Human rights groups maintain that the use of torture in Israeli prisons has increased and become more systematic over the past two years. Violations of the United Nations Convention Against Torture are now commonplace as the military grip on the Occupied Territories has been tightened.
The Israeli Army and police also receive the unconditional backing of the country's legal system, perpetuating the culture that they can act with impunity in Israeli prisons. The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) has found that the Israeli attorney general has approved every case of torture as a necessary security measure. The High Court has rejected every single one of the 124 petitions submitted by PCATI against prisoners being denied access to legal support.
The thousands of statements given by former Palestinian prisoners bear witness to the relish with which their Israeli tormentors went about their task. Just as in Iraq, any humiliation or abuse is permissible if it goes under the spurious banner of security. The casual disregard for human dignity and international law within the Israeli Army and police is despicable.
Despite all the evidence to the contrary, including the death or maiming of numerous Palestinian prisoners, Israel continues to deny that torture is used in its prisons. Over 7,000 Palestinian prisoners currently remain in Israeli prisons, many of them held without charge or trial. Most will have suffered some degree of torture before their release. It is shocking to realize that around 650,000 Palestinians have spent time in Israeli custody since 1967, most of them adult males. This means that almost one in two Palestinian adult males has been imprisoned.
The torture in Abu Ghraib prison has shaken the Bush administration to its very core. Photographic evidence is all that is lacking to finally expose and condemn Israel's barbaric treatment of its Palestinian prisoners. This is the only difference between the two cases, yet the weight of evidence against Israel, in the testimonies of former prisoners and investigations by human rights organizations, is overwhelming. It is not enough to condemn the actions of American soldiers in Iraqi jails while thousands of Palestinians continue to suffer. Israel's use of torture must also be exposed.
Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi is the Secretary-General of the Palestinian National Initiative. He lives in Ramallah
Super Genius
Posts: 1,103
July 11th, 2004, 01:23 AM
Feel free to question my intellectual acuity-- though attacking anyone you disgree with does not speak well for your debating skills.
Barghoutis statements are absurd-- half male population was at one time or another incarcerated? that would mean over a half a million, if not closer to a million men. Pretty impressive if it were true. I submit that the numbers--as in the number of victims in the intifadah-- have been inflated and may include roadblock detentions. (the intifadah numbers also include the dead as a result of the intrafadah, as published by Palestinian Human Rights organizations-- number in the hundreds, so far,)
I have been to the region-- Israel and some of the bordering states. I have seen what you are referring to. I have learned, in my work-- and especially in that region, that there are no clean hands, much as youd like it to be otherwise.
My handle is a result of my work. Once again, you seem comfortable attacking me personally rather than discussing the issues in a clear civilized way. Ask yourself why that is. I don't mean to attack you-- just the opposite, actually-- I think I can discuss this with you. However, personal attacks, based on no real affront, are rather silly.
I have clearly, throughout my posts (perhaps you might read them) been careful to assess or not assess blame one sidedly.
The facts of the occupation are published. Everything from electricity, to sanitation, infrastructure and health care were put into place in the region by Israel. Neither Egypt in gaza or Jordan in the west bank saw fir to give the Palestians those basics, and more. Those are facts.
Isreal is guilty of plenty-- if you read my posts, Im rather clear on what-- and it baffles me as to why the real issues are not brought up. Israel has plenty to answer for and the US needs to insert itself in away that is even handed. Leaving negotiations up to the parties is one thing-- crafting an agreement is quite another, as history has shown.
The deaths of Palestinians is tragic, of course. But in point of fact, if Israel reallly wanted to end the Intifadah, they could have quite easily. They have overwhelming military capacity to do so. They chose not to. That too, is a fact not in dispute.
The real issue arent the facts on the ground-- no one side here has clean hands, as Ive stated. Those are also facts not in dispute
The issue is how to mediate a negotiated REAL settlement.
Feel free to question my intellectual acuity-- though attacking anyone you disgree with does not speak well for your debating skills.
Barghoutis statements are absurd-- half male population was at one time or another incarcerated? that would mean over a half a million, if not closer to a million men. Pretty impressive if it were true. I submit that the numbers--as in the number of victims in the intifadah-- have been inflated and may include roadblock detentions. (the intifadah numbers also include the dead as a result of the intrafadah, as published by Palestinian Human Rights organizations-- number in the hundreds, so far,)
I have been to the region-- Israel and some of the bordering states. I have seen what you are referring to. I have learned, in my work-- and especially in that region, that there are no clean hands, much as youd like it to be otherwise.
My handle is a result of my work. Once again, you seem comfortable attacking me personally rather than discussing the issues in a clear civilized way. Ask yourself why that is. I don't mean to attack you-- just the opposite, actually-- I think I can discuss this with you. However, personal attacks, based on no real affront, are rather silly.
I have clearly, throughout my posts (perhaps you might read them) been careful to assess or not assess blame one sidedly.
The facts of the occupation are published. Everything from electricity, to sanitation, infrastructure and health care were put into place in the region by Israel. Neither Egypt in gaza or Jordan in the west bank saw fir to give the Palestians those basics, and more. Those are facts.
Isreal is guilty of plenty-- if you read my posts, Im rather clear on what-- and it baffles me as to why the real issues are not brought up. Israel has plenty to answer for and the US needs to insert itself in away that is even handed. Leaving negotiations up to the parties is one thing-- crafting an agreement is quite another, as history has shown.
The deaths of Palestinians is tragic, of course. But in point of fact, if Israel reallly wanted to end the Intifadah, they could have quite easily. They have overwhelming military capacity to do so. They chose not to. That too, is a fact not in dispute.
The real issue arent the facts on the ground-- no one side here has clean hands, as Ive stated. Those are also facts not in dispute
The issue is how to mediate a negotiated REAL settlement.
Newbie
Posts: 29
Location: Fraser Valley, British Columbia
Location: Fraser Valley, British Columbia
July 11th, 2004, 03:34 AM
researchok - "Feel free to question my intellectual acuity-- though attacking anyone you disgree with does not speak well for your debating skills...."
Well, you go ahead and criticize my debating skills and I'll continue to question your intellectual acuity. For your information, questioning is not an insult unless so interpreted. Given your comments of a prior post in which you say that Israel's occupation has been benign, and refusing to recognize why it is that several people question the Israelis' position on torture given their own experiences is sufficient reason for me to question your intellectual acuity. It's really that simple.
Unfortunately, with those statements you lost credibility with me vis-a-vis the statements of the good doctor.
Since I have no personal experience in the ME, I must also filter what I read through just plain common sense--as a few others on this board have also done.
The question remains, with things so peachy under Israeli occupation, why would the Palestinian leadership be able to get people to engage in suicide bombing? Could it be that the Palestinian has a depraved mentality or could it just possibly be as one Board member suggested that the Palestinians find their situation totally and completely intolerable?
The fact remains, the Jews took the Palestinians' land with a good deal of bloodshed --and to this day continue to persecute them.
Now when you say that "no one side has clean hands," am I to infer that you think the retaliatory actions taken by the Palestinians are not kosher? What exactly would you have them do? It's their bloody land--except for pragmatic reasons, why should they concede anything at all? And with the U.S. supporting Israel is every way possible, well, what more can I say. I know which side I'm coming down on. I just can't abide bullies who maim, torture and kill in the name of getting what ain't theirs.
And just one more thing, assuming for the sake of argument that you are right--horror of horrors--that I am attacking your person--and that it is "silly" to do so, then forget it. Silly is silly--so by your own admission there's nothing much for you to get upset about. Sweating "silly" is silly.
researchok - "Feel free to question my intellectual acuity-- though attacking anyone you disgree with does not speak well for your debating skills...."
Well, you go ahead and criticize my debating skills and I'll continue to question your intellectual acuity. For your information, questioning is not an insult unless so interpreted. Given your comments of a prior post in which you say that Israel's occupation has been benign, and refusing to recognize why it is that several people question the Israelis' position on torture given their own experiences is sufficient reason for me to question your intellectual acuity. It's really that simple.
Unfortunately, with those statements you lost credibility with me vis-a-vis the statements of the good doctor.
Since I have no personal experience in the ME, I must also filter what I read through just plain common sense--as a few others on this board have also done.
The question remains, with things so peachy under Israeli occupation, why would the Palestinian leadership be able to get people to engage in suicide bombing? Could it be that the Palestinian has a depraved mentality or could it just possibly be as one Board member suggested that the Palestinians find their situation totally and completely intolerable?
The fact remains, the Jews took the Palestinians' land with a good deal of bloodshed --and to this day continue to persecute them.
Now when you say that "no one side has clean hands," am I to infer that you think the retaliatory actions taken by the Palestinians are not kosher? What exactly would you have them do? It's their bloody land--except for pragmatic reasons, why should they concede anything at all? And with the U.S. supporting Israel is every way possible, well, what more can I say. I know which side I'm coming down on. I just can't abide bullies who maim, torture and kill in the name of getting what ain't theirs.
And just one more thing, assuming for the sake of argument that you are right--horror of horrors--that I am attacking your person--and that it is "silly" to do so, then forget it. Silly is silly--so by your own admission there's nothing much for you to get upset about. Sweating "silly" is silly.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,103
July 11th, 2004, 09:45 AM
The situation is intolerable as you say, largely because of PA corruption. Billion have been squandered and stolen-- so much so, that Quartet last week presented the PA with an ultimatum-- clean up your act, participate as promised in negotiations or lose aid money from the EU and others. In addition, if things were so intolerable before the intifadah, why are Palestinians complaining of the collapse of their economy-- an economy that didnt exist before 67?
The intifadah was a choice the Palestinians made. It has served a number of purposes, none of which actually benefited the Palestinians, save the PA itself. Other countries in the area benefit from outrage turned outward, not inward and the PA has benefited to tune of anywhere from 8 to 12 billion in moneys stolen-- that number comes from the times of London and does not reflect the last number of years.
The nature of the occupation is not in question, save by the Palestinians-- who justfiably use the ocupation as tool to achieve their goals. The question is however, what goals are we talking about. A peace accord with Israel, as the PA professes, or the elimination of Israel and the slaughter of her inhabitants, as hamas, jihad, et al propose publicly. Since the PA can't seem to control terrorism, what incentive does Israel have to negotiate? Even after an agreement, they would still face terror, unabated.
Also, are you seriously comparing treatment of Arabs in Israel with repressed societies elsewhere? There are Arab political parties, an Arab served on Israel's Supreme Court and basic rights are guaranteed. Thats not to sat there arent problems in Israel-- but what free country doesnt have problems. Ask Quebecois or Albertans in Canada, Hispanic and African Americans in the US or Basques in Spain and France, for example.
It bears remembering that when te Israelis pulled out of Lebanon, the Allawites (Assad's of Syria's own clan) in the region wanted to annexed by Israel and not be returned to Lebanese rule.
Quote:
The Palestinian 'leadership', such as it is, is using suicide bombers as method of pushing a number of agendas- including the total destruction of Israel, hamas, Jihad, PFLP, et al have stated that is their goal-- that they will not abide by a political settlement reached by the PA-- and they are the ones sponsoring suicide bombers.
The question remains, with things so peachy under Israeli occupation, why would the Palestinian leadership be able to get people to engage in suicide bombing? Could it be that the Palestinian has a depraved mentality or could it just possibly be as one Board member suggested that the Palestinians find their situation totally and completely intolerable?
The situation is intolerable as you say, largely because of PA corruption. Billion have been squandered and stolen-- so much so, that Quartet last week presented the PA with an ultimatum-- clean up your act, participate as promised in negotiations or lose aid money from the EU and others. In addition, if things were so intolerable before the intifadah, why are Palestinians complaining of the collapse of their economy-- an economy that didnt exist before 67?
The intifadah was a choice the Palestinians made. It has served a number of purposes, none of which actually benefited the Palestinians, save the PA itself. Other countries in the area benefit from outrage turned outward, not inward and the PA has benefited to tune of anywhere from 8 to 12 billion in moneys stolen-- that number comes from the times of London and does not reflect the last number of years.
The nature of the occupation is not in question, save by the Palestinians-- who justfiably use the ocupation as tool to achieve their goals. The question is however, what goals are we talking about. A peace accord with Israel, as the PA professes, or the elimination of Israel and the slaughter of her inhabitants, as hamas, jihad, et al propose publicly. Since the PA can't seem to control terrorism, what incentive does Israel have to negotiate? Even after an agreement, they would still face terror, unabated.
Quote:
What land are you referring to-- land partitioned by the UN in 48 in which Arabs REJECTED a state for the Palestinians- or land won in war of annihilation, started in 67 by Arab countries after they kicked out UN peacekeepers, massed troops along her borders and blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba? Your not clear on that.
The fact remains, the Jews took the Palestinians' land with a good deal of bloodshed --and to this day continue to persecute them.
Also, are you seriously comparing treatment of Arabs in Israel with repressed societies elsewhere? There are Arab political parties, an Arab served on Israel's Supreme Court and basic rights are guaranteed. Thats not to sat there arent problems in Israel-- but what free country doesnt have problems. Ask Quebecois or Albertans in Canada, Hispanic and African Americans in the US or Basques in Spain and France, for example.
It bears remembering that when te Israelis pulled out of Lebanon, the Allawites (Assad's of Syria's own clan) in the region wanted to annexed by Israel and not be returned to Lebanese rule.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
July 11th, 2004, 09:56 AM
How much of the Bush regime's unmitigated support for Israel has to do with their radical Christian belief in the rapture? Are they trying to shape Armegeddon?
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0420/perlstein.php
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/086669.htm
Normally I'd write such a story off, but normally the US doesn't have a leader who thinks God is talking to him. Messiah complexes can be dangerous things.
How much of the Bush regime's unmitigated support for Israel has to do with their radical Christian belief in the rapture? Are they trying to shape Armegeddon?
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0420/perlstein.php
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/086669.htm
Normally I'd write such a story off, but normally the US doesn't have a leader who thinks God is talking to him. Messiah complexes can be dangerous things.
