Super Genius
Posts: 1,320 
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
July 11th, 2004, 11:37 AM
I had the impression that Kerry's support for Israel was more tempered though...closer to what past administrations have done. While I don't consider that good, and a lot of it is pandering to the Jewish vote, it is not the completely unqualified support I see from the Bush administration.
That could just be another expression of the "with us or agin us" attitude too...support within the Bush administration tends to be total or totally absent.
I had the impression that Kerry's support for Israel was more tempered though...closer to what past administrations have done. While I don't consider that good, and a lot of it is pandering to the Jewish vote, it is not the completely unqualified support I see from the Bush administration.
That could just be another expression of the "with us or agin us" attitude too...support within the Bush administration tends to be total or totally absent.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,103
July 11th, 2004, 04:25 PM
You know, that argument is often made. I dont have all the numbers but I did see that the jewish voter numbers arent that great in totality.
What is interesting is the way the Jewish vote splits-- and more so because although the population is small, they have the highest turnout per capita in terms of group participation. I guess that translates into a voter pool roughly triple in size, if you will.
No wonder the parties fall out over themselves courting the Jewish vote. I'm going to check out voting records and paterns this week. I'll post them when I can make sense of them.
Still, the Hispanc voter numbers are the one to watch this year. There are going to be lots of surprises, I suspect.
You know, that argument is often made. I dont have all the numbers but I did see that the jewish voter numbers arent that great in totality.
What is interesting is the way the Jewish vote splits-- and more so because although the population is small, they have the highest turnout per capita in terms of group participation. I guess that translates into a voter pool roughly triple in size, if you will.
No wonder the parties fall out over themselves courting the Jewish vote. I'm going to check out voting records and paterns this week. I'll post them when I can make sense of them.
Still, the Hispanc voter numbers are the one to watch this year. There are going to be lots of surprises, I suspect.
Newbie
Posts: 29
Location: Fraser Valley, British Columbia
Location: Fraser Valley, British Columbia
July 11th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Let's begin once again with your bent for the obtuse.
You said, "Also, are you seriously comparing treatment of Arabs in Israel with repressed societies elsewhere? There are Arab political parties, an Arab served on Israel's Supreme Court and basic rights are guaranteed. Thats not to sat there arent problems in Israel-- but what free country doesnt have problems. Ask Quebecois or Albertans in Canada, Hispanic and African Americans in the US or Basques in Spain and France, for example."
Huh? What in god's name is that all about? Let me tell you YET AGAIN - perhaps you'll catch it this time, although I'm not holding out much hope.
I am NOT INTERESTED--let's repeat--I am NOT INTERESTED in playing the numbers or comparisons game, for that's exactly what it is--a bloody game--YOUR game. Try to keep in mind that behind numbers and comparisons are individuals--let me repeat--individuals--who like you and me are complex human beings--flesh, blood, nerves, families, hopes, dreams, histories. When you reduce an argument to numbers you marginalize people. Numbers are abstract, faceless, and impersonal. They help you to minimalize the true character of suffering. You see this reflected in the news. 911. Reports come in, "The number of dead could be as many as 9-10,000 people. Yes, the number of people who are generally in the Trade Towers after 8 in the morning is approximately that number." Next report: "We are hearing from our sources on the ground that our earlier numbers may be a bit high, but we'll keep you posted." And on and on it went--the importance of the story were the numbers the media was able to deliver to the public sitting by their TV sets watching the horrors unfold. Watch the stories. In our society, numbers talk; numbers are used for exploitation on any number of levels.
We need to be far more interested in WHY these events take place at all. We need to focus on the origins of terror. We need to explore indepth what drives people to do the things they do. But, we're all surface--we like the rush--we like the drama. We love to obscure, beat around the push, spin, etc. Contrary to what the media feeds you, the numbers AREN'T the story.
I'm sure you don't mean to suggest that a Jew killed under the Nazis because he was one of 1,000,000 killed has more significance or importance than a Palestinian killed under the Israelis who's one of only 100,000 killed. But when you engage in numbers and comparisons I can only infer that that is exactly what you're saying. You are in essence minimalizing what's happening to the Palestinians.
What's going on with the Palestinians stems from the time when the Israelis muscled in on Arab land. What the U.N. did was wrong and everything going on today in that region of the world stems from that decision.
I offer the following for you to read:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/ju...irae-j21.shtml
and
http://[http://www.wsws.org/arti...isr2-j23.shtml
Let's begin once again with your bent for the obtuse.
You said, "Also, are you seriously comparing treatment of Arabs in Israel with repressed societies elsewhere? There are Arab political parties, an Arab served on Israel's Supreme Court and basic rights are guaranteed. Thats not to sat there arent problems in Israel-- but what free country doesnt have problems. Ask Quebecois or Albertans in Canada, Hispanic and African Americans in the US or Basques in Spain and France, for example."
Huh? What in god's name is that all about? Let me tell you YET AGAIN - perhaps you'll catch it this time, although I'm not holding out much hope.
I am NOT INTERESTED--let's repeat--I am NOT INTERESTED in playing the numbers or comparisons game, for that's exactly what it is--a bloody game--YOUR game. Try to keep in mind that behind numbers and comparisons are individuals--let me repeat--individuals--who like you and me are complex human beings--flesh, blood, nerves, families, hopes, dreams, histories. When you reduce an argument to numbers you marginalize people. Numbers are abstract, faceless, and impersonal. They help you to minimalize the true character of suffering. You see this reflected in the news. 911. Reports come in, "The number of dead could be as many as 9-10,000 people. Yes, the number of people who are generally in the Trade Towers after 8 in the morning is approximately that number." Next report: "We are hearing from our sources on the ground that our earlier numbers may be a bit high, but we'll keep you posted." And on and on it went--the importance of the story were the numbers the media was able to deliver to the public sitting by their TV sets watching the horrors unfold. Watch the stories. In our society, numbers talk; numbers are used for exploitation on any number of levels.
We need to be far more interested in WHY these events take place at all. We need to focus on the origins of terror. We need to explore indepth what drives people to do the things they do. But, we're all surface--we like the rush--we like the drama. We love to obscure, beat around the push, spin, etc. Contrary to what the media feeds you, the numbers AREN'T the story.
I'm sure you don't mean to suggest that a Jew killed under the Nazis because he was one of 1,000,000 killed has more significance or importance than a Palestinian killed under the Israelis who's one of only 100,000 killed. But when you engage in numbers and comparisons I can only infer that that is exactly what you're saying. You are in essence minimalizing what's happening to the Palestinians.
What's going on with the Palestinians stems from the time when the Israelis muscled in on Arab land. What the U.N. did was wrong and everything going on today in that region of the world stems from that decision.
I offer the following for you to read:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/ju...irae-j21.shtml
and
http://[http://www.wsws.org/arti...isr2-j23.shtml
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,490
Location: Canada
Location: Canada
July 11th, 2004, 05:29 PM
here is another link:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jun2003/isr-j19.shtml
here is another link:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jun2003/isr-j19.shtml
