NATO warned to start paying its bills

Locutus

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Jun 18, 2007
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Hm, only Slovenia,Spain,Belgium,and Luxembourg spend less than Little Canader,(0.99%) no wonder the U.S. is pissed off at it's NATO "partners".

We are a Nation of smug freeloaders when it comes to our military commitment.

One would think Belgium, given recent events there,would spend a bit more on their military, but then that might offend someone.




Of all Trump’s policy unorthodoxies, demanding that Europe boost defense spending is the most justifiable. Among 28 members, just five — five — complied with the NATO guideline last year of devoting two percent of GDP to defense.



Now here’s Mattis earlier today in Brussels with a message that came straight from the boss:
“I owe it to you all to give you clarity on the political reality in the United States and to state the fair demand from my country’s people in concrete terms,” Mattis said. “America will meet its responsibilities, but if your nations do not want to see America moderate its commitment to the alliance, each of your capitals needs to show its support for our common defense.”…

Mattis, a retired Marine general, recalled Wednesday that when he was NATO’s supreme allied commander of transformation from November 2007 to September 2009, he watched as then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned NATO nations that Congress and the American people “would lose their patience for carrying a disproportionate burden” of the defense of allies.

That impatience, Mattis said, is now a “governmental reality.”

“No longer can the American taxpayer carry a disproportionate share of the defense of Western values,” Mattis said. “Americans cannot care more for your children’s security than you do. Disregard for military readiness demonstrates a lack of respect for ourselves, for the alliance and for the freedoms we inherited, which are now clearly threatened.”
The criticism of that position is predictable and understandable, but so is the response:
The timing of this could hardly be worse. The US threatens to retreat from most important alliance that checks Russian aggression? Today? https://t.co/28N0ym8OWD

— Joe Scarborough (@JoeNBC) February 15, 2017
Okay, but if not now, when? What better time could there be to concentrate Europe’s minds on defense spending than with Putin looking west to Ukraine and beyond, installing intermediate-range missiles aimed at Europe inside Russia in violation of a treaty, and engaging in petty provocations against the U.S. to test Trump’s resolve? If you want to squeeze NATO members to pony up, choosing a moment to do so when they’re more worried about Russia than they’ve been in years seems opportune.

On the other hand, there’s a reason (well, two reasons) that the U.S. has traditionally let Europe slide in missing its target on NATO spending. One, of course, is the fear of re-militarization. WaPo noted in passing in its story about Mattis’s speech that if an economic powerhouse like Germany were to boost defense spending to two percent of GDP, its military would suddenly be better funded than Great Britain’s, historically not a harbinger of lasting peace and perhaps especially dangerous with nationalist movements gaining traction across the continent right now. In theory a militarily muscular Europe is bad for Russia; in practice, European nationalists tend to be Putin sympathizers and may encounter more antagonism among themselves than with Russia. Reducing the risk of war in eastern Europe with Moscow needs to be weighed against increasing the risk of war long-term between European countries.

The other reason the U.S. has traditionally let Europe slide is that there’s never really a good time to have this standoff. Trump has now made an ultimatum, with which NATO members will hopefully comply. If they don’t, though, and end up calling Trump’s bluff, the U.S. will be in a jam in which Trump will either have to lose face by maintaining America’s NATO commitment despite the defiance on spending from fellow members or he’ll have to show he means business by ratcheting down America’s contributions to NATO, which is sure to tempt Russia westward. Meanwhile, some members are destined to complain that they “can’t” meet the two-percent guideline, or at least not yet; their money’s tied up in welfare-state obligations at the moment, and while they’re happy to undertake the process of re-budgeting, that’ll take time. Is Trump willing to accept a promise to meet the guideline down the road as fulfillment of each member’s obligation or do they need to pony up ASAP? Can they “pay” their obligation to NATO in the form of indebtedness to the United States? It’s fine to shrug here and say “if they can’t or won’t pay, let ’em enjoy Russian occupation,” but Russian expansionism westward comes with costs for the United States too. That’s … why NATO exists in the first place.

Here’s Mattis today with NATO leader Jens Stoltenberg emphasizing again that member nations need to pay up. Russia seems increasingly sour towards Trump, especially now that Mike Flynn is gone, but the prospect of a rupture in NATO over spending should brighten their day a bit.




Mattis warns NATO: Start paying your fair share on defense or the U.S. will “moderate its commitment” « Hot Air
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
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He planning a war? If Trump's worried about paying to keep an army in Europe, bring them home. Europe doesn't want to be the US anyhow

He wants an excuse to leave NATO, maybe. He's run up a tab with the Russians and they have a shopping list for him?
 

Johnnny

Frontiersman
Jun 8, 2007
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Anyone look at that chart and become a little confused at Greeces spot? Couldnt the money they spend on their military be put towards their debt? Given the fiasco their government had with Elderado Mines you figure every cent counts. No one wants to see a second default.
 

Curious Cdn

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Feb 22, 2015
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Pay up deadbeats

We are deadbeats. It is a constant source of disgust to me that we have pretty much stood down all of our forces and left it to another country to ensure our borders. What a dreadful mistake that is.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
We can't spend our way out of this one. We'll have to THINK of somethingelse. I know doing nothing works. Try to avoid the squishy parts. You only live till you get it right.
 

Mowich

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Dec 25, 2005
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Hm, only Slovenia,Spain,Belgium,and Luxembourg spend less than Little Canader,(0.99%) no wonder the U.S. is pissed off at it's NATO "partners".

We are a Nation of smug freeloaders when it comes to our military commitment.

One would think Belgium, given recent events there,would spend a bit more on their military, but then that might offend someone.




Of all Trump’s policy unorthodoxies, demanding that Europe boost defense spending is the most justifiable. Among 28 members, just five — five — complied with the NATO guideline last year of devoting two percent of GDP to defense.



Now here’s Mattis earlier today in Brussels with a message that came straight from the boss:
“I owe it to you all to give you clarity on the political reality in the United States and to state the fair demand from my country’s people in concrete terms,” Mattis said. “America will meet its responsibilities, but if your nations do not want to see America moderate its commitment to the alliance, each of your capitals needs to show its support for our common defense.”…

Mattis, a retired Marine general, recalled Wednesday that when he was NATO’s supreme allied commander of transformation from November 2007 to September 2009, he watched as then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned NATO nations that Congress and the American people “would lose their patience for carrying a disproportionate burden” of the defense of allies.

That impatience, Mattis said, is now a “governmental reality.”

“No longer can the American taxpayer carry a disproportionate share of the defense of Western values,” Mattis said. “Americans cannot care more for your children’s security than you do. Disregard for military readiness demonstrates a lack of respect for ourselves, for the alliance and for the freedoms we inherited, which are now clearly threatened.”
The criticism of that position is predictable and understandable, but so is the response:
The timing of this could hardly be worse. The US threatens to retreat from most important alliance that checks Russian aggression? Today? https://t.co/28N0ym8OWD

— Joe Scarborough (@JoeNBC) February 15, 2017
Okay, but if not now, when? What better time could there be to concentrate Europe’s minds on defense spending than with Putin looking west to Ukraine and beyond, installing intermediate-range missiles aimed at Europe inside Russia in violation of a treaty, and engaging in petty provocations against the U.S. to test Trump’s resolve? If you want to squeeze NATO members to pony up, choosing a moment to do so when they’re more worried about Russia than they’ve been in years seems opportune.

On the other hand, there’s a reason (well, two reasons) that the U.S. has traditionally let Europe slide in missing its target on NATO spending. One, of course, is the fear of re-militarization. WaPo noted in passing in its story about Mattis’s speech that if an economic powerhouse like Germany were to boost defense spending to two percent of GDP, its military would suddenly be better funded than Great Britain’s, historically not a harbinger of lasting peace and perhaps especially dangerous with nationalist movements gaining traction across the continent right now. In theory a militarily muscular Europe is bad for Russia; in practice, European nationalists tend to be Putin sympathizers and may encounter more antagonism among themselves than with Russia. Reducing the risk of war in eastern Europe with Moscow needs to be weighed against increasing the risk of war long-term between European countries.

The other reason the U.S. has traditionally let Europe slide is that there’s never really a good time to have this standoff. Trump has now made an ultimatum, with which NATO members will hopefully comply. If they don’t, though, and end up calling Trump’s bluff, the U.S. will be in a jam in which Trump will either have to lose face by maintaining America’s NATO commitment despite the defiance on spending from fellow members or he’ll have to show he means business by ratcheting down America’s contributions to NATO, which is sure to tempt Russia westward. Meanwhile, some members are destined to complain that they “can’t” meet the two-percent guideline, or at least not yet; their money’s tied up in welfare-state obligations at the moment, and while they’re happy to undertake the process of re-budgeting, that’ll take time. Is Trump willing to accept a promise to meet the guideline down the road as fulfillment of each member’s obligation or do they need to pony up ASAP? Can they “pay” their obligation to NATO in the form of indebtedness to the United States? It’s fine to shrug here and say “if they can’t or won’t pay, let ’em enjoy Russian occupation,” but Russian expansionism westward comes with costs for the United States too. That’s … why NATO exists in the first place.

Here’s Mattis today with NATO leader Jens Stoltenberg emphasizing again that member nations need to pay up. Russia seems increasingly sour towards Trump, especially now that Mike Flynn is gone, but the prospect of a rupture in NATO over spending should brighten their day a bit.




Mattis warns NATO: Start paying your fair share on defense or the U.S. will “moderate its commitment” « Hot Air

So far this is the only item on the administrations agenda that I agree with, Loc. I do think the US has been subsidizing other NATO countries. That said, considering that the US has a peculiar habit of starting or at least precipitating the wars that other member states are then duty bound to fight, I can see why so many might lag behind in their payments.

As for Canada's participation in NATO, I do not see the US pushing us too hard on increasing our monetary commitment. As has been well documented in the last few weeks, the US is more than happy to have us continue in our current role knowing that when push comes to shove we will be there for them. They have spoken highly of our technical expertise, excellent training abilities and dedication.

We are deadbeats. It is a constant source of disgust to me that we have pretty much stood down all of our forces and left it to another country to ensure our borders. What a dreadful mistake that is.

I believe Canada holds up its end of the NATO bargain pretty darn well and the US thinks so too. As for ensuring our borders, the government should consider expanding the Canadian Rangers. They would do a fine job.
 

Danbones

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Sep 23, 2015
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what exactly are we defending ourselves from?
debt enslavement by bankers?
other countries the bankers have enslaved, or countries we have attacked first because the bankers would like to enslave them?
 

Bar Sinister

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Jan 17, 2010
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NATO has always been a bit of a con game so far as the US is concerned. During the Cold War the US constantly bullied NATO members into spending more on defense than was really necessary. The result was the most massively armed alliance in world history. The less spent on the military the better. Military spending certainly does not help the economy unless foreigners can be duped into buying military equipment.
 

tay

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May 20, 2012
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NATO has always been a bit of a con game so far as the US is concerned. During the Cold War the US constantly bullied NATO members into spending more on defense than was really necessary. The result was the most massively armed alliance in world history. The less spent on the military the better. Military spending certainly does not help the economy unless foreigners can be duped into buying military equipment.
I was just going to add, has anyone considered that the US spends too much on NATO as opposed to other spending too little......
 

Curious Cdn

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Feb 22, 2015
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what exactly are we defending ourselves from?
debt enslavement by bankers?
other countries the bankers have enslaved, or countries we have attacked first because the bankers would like to enslave them?

Grown-up countries defend their own borders. Colonies have someone else do it for them.
 

Decapoda

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Mar 4, 2016
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Ottawa needs to stop spending and set their priorities. Pay your share.

With junior in charge of the credit card, I wouldn't hold my breath. All the guy knows how to do is spend money we don't have and drive us further into the abyss.

But, but......infrastructure!!
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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what exactly are we defending ourselves from?
debt enslavement by bankers?
other countries the bankers have enslaved, or countries we have attacked first because the bankers would like to enslave them?

Lowlifes from Murica that think they have to escape Trump. Not the kind of people we want here.

With junior in charge of the credit card, I wouldn't hold my breath. All the guy knows how to do is spend money we don't have and drive us further into the abyss.

But, but......infrastructure!!

About that infrastructure. Anyone seen any of it yet? Or the replacements for the SeaKings? Or subs that can go both up and down?
 

Decapoda

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Mar 4, 2016
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About that infrastructure. Anyone seen any of it yet? Or the replacements for the SeaKings? Or subs that can go both up and down?

He's committed $2,600,000,000.00 into infrastructure....in other countries. Of course, we won't see any of it.