Want to Stay on Unemployment? Work for it!


Locutus
+1
#1
Interesting developments (external - login to view) in Australia:
Tony Abbott, Australia's prime minister, has unveiled strict measures to force welfare recipients to work for their benefits, including requiring them to make 40 job applications a month and perform 25 hours a week of community work.

Facing accusations he is demonising the unemployed, Mr Abbott said the expanded "work for the dole" scheme would reduce welfare dependency.
Not everyone is happy!


Is anyone in Stephen Harper's office listening?!?


Want to Stay on Unemployment? Work for it! - Small Dead Animals (external - login to view)
 
bill barilko
+2
#2
Unemployment is not welfare they are two separate programmes even in Oz.

I've been in countries with work for benefits schemes it generally means a gang of bored looking people scratching @ the dirt, raking the same leaves over & over & generally being useless-their 'overseers' look as though they're being tortured in slow motion and maybe they are.
Last edited by bill barilko; Jul 28th, 2014 at 12:37 PM..
 
Grievous
No Party Affiliation
#3
Get rid of EI and welfare.
 
Corduroy
#4
EI is insurance (that's what the I stands for). You pay into it. It's your money. And like other forms of insurance, when something goes wrong you get paid out to cover the expense.
 
MHz
#5
I know, I know. we could make uniforms for the prison chain gangs and that would justify them doing our heavy labor.
 
Corduroy
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

I know, I know. we could make uniforms for the prison chain gangs and that would justify them doing our heavy labor.

It's not unemployment if they get paid right? Sounds like a dirty socialist New Deal make work project to me.

Dig hole for glory of Motherland, comrades!
Fill in hole for glory of Motherland, comrades!
 
MHz
#7
Nor is it slave labor once they sign the waiver.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

Nor is it slave labor once they sign the waiver.

...and there's no welfare if they don't. Is a contract signed under duress legal?
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
+2
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

...and there's no welfare if they don't. Is a contract signed under duress legal?

So don't sign the contract. Exit is over there. Have a nice day.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+3
#10  Top Rated Post
I don't know how they do things in Australia, but I pay mandatory premiums towards EI here. Should I require it, it had better damn well be available. It's insurance, it's not welfare.
 
MHz
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

...and there's no welfare if they don't. Is a contract signed under duress legal?

Sounds great and that should be voted in by the Federal govt and then they should all be given pink slips as in this day and age having a Provincial and a Federal Govt is putting two yokes on the taxpayer.
On the issue would the bill look different if they knew they were being fired or they did not know they were writing the conditions they would be facing the following week.
A sad fact is of you need 93% of the labor force to be working so the Country can just squeeze by. 9% could be at work and the 93% should be on vacation with an income that allows them to be a world traveler if that is their desire. Create $100 and let the bank keep 3% to cover it's costs and then the 97% of the money that is left is circulated around with the 'Unemployed' and 'the Leisure Industry'. When a natural disaster happens vacation is over and the time required is 'donated' till the problem is fixed and then they are unemployed again.

Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I don't know how they do things in Australia, but I pay mandatory premiums towards EI here. Should I require it, it had better damn well be available. It's insurance, it's not welfare.

Welfare comes 1 year after you get unemployed. Welfare stops when retirement age is reached so you better have some sort of pension if that is you money-tree. I hate to say it but if times get rough a block might get together to live in one or two houses and rent the other 8 out so the bills cab be paid. To fill the houses you would have to be willing to rent to the ones on welfare or the places would remain vacant and then financial ruin for anybody on the block that has a mortgage because welfare doesn't cover that. How long before gunfire erupted or would all the neighbors grow closer and share the work load to keep the places on the block looking as well as possible under rough circumstances. Husband and wife would have to get legally separated and then child support and such is involved while you share the same roof but not the same sleeping quarters.
If it is insurance it is you betting against yourself that you will never need it and when you do need it there is only a small window and then your 'income' is halved no matter how much it dropped to get EI.

Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

So don't sign the contract. Exit is over there. Have a nice day.

I can see why you dropped the 'Thank you, come again.' part.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

So don't sign the contract. Exit is over there. Have a nice day.

Nice echo
 
Twila
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I don't know how they do things in Australia, but I pay mandatory premiums towards EI here. Should I require it, it had better damn well be available. It's insurance, it's not welfare.

You are entitled to it as long as you qualify. Kind of odd...to have to qualify for something you've paid into..
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

You are entitled to it as long as you qualify. Kind of odd...to have to qualify for something you've paid into..

Not really, most insurance is like that as well. You can pay into a LTD or life insurance but try collecting if you're not disabled or dead, so there's a qualifier, lol.
 
Corduroy
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Not really, most insurance is like that as well. You can pay into a LTD or life insurance but try collecting if you're not disabled or dead, so there's a qualifier, lol.

Try collecting it if you ARE dead.
 
MHz
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

or dead,.

I am going to be so disappointed (in everything) if this still matters at that point in time.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by CorduroyView Post

Try collecting it if you ARE dead.

I admit there's a glitch in the plan........Lol.
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I don't know how they do things in Australia, but I pay mandatory premiums towards EI here. Should I require it, it had better damn well be available. It's insurance, it's not welfare.

Your payout has a maximum and the time frame is limited in terms of how long you can receive said 'pre-payments'.

Excepting a circumstance of getting on pogey annually, there is little chance that you would ever be able to collect the value of your contributions.

... That's a pretty skewed 'insurance' plan
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+1
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Your payout has a maximum and the time frame is limited in terms of how long you can receive said 'pre-payments'.

Excepting a circumstance of getting on pogey annually, there is little chance that you would ever be able to collect the value of your contributions.

... That's a pretty skewed 'insurance' plan

I never claimed it was a well constructed 'insurance plan'....just that premiums are paid into it.
Last edited by SLM; Jul 28th, 2014 at 06:29 PM..
 
Praxius
Free Thinker
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by LocutusView Post

Interesting developments in Australia:Tony Abbott, Australia's prime minister, has unveiled strict measures to force welfare recipients to work for their benefits, including requiring them to make 40 job applications a month and perform 25 hours a week of community work.
Facing accusations he is demonising the unemployed, Mr Abbott said the expanded "work for the dole" scheme would reduce welfare dependency.Not everyone is happy!
Is anyone in Stephen Harper's office listening?!?
Want to Stay on Unemployment? Work for it! - Small Dead Animals

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
It's a joke.

Yes, there are many people milking the system and getting money to sit on their azz and doing nothing, but this new measure is foolish.

You can only get unemployment money if you apply for 40 jobs a month and then also work 25 hours a week of community work?

25 Hours a week is a part time job.... but without pay.

Then on top of that you're supposed to look for 40 different jobs, fill out applications and resumes for each of those jobs and eventually attend those up to 40 job interviews in between working 25 hours a week for free??

For starters, I know the public transit system here in Melbourne isn't friggin cheap.

Secondly, if I look on the job banks here in Melbourne for jobs in my field (Graphic Design), there are currently 63 jobs listed within Melbourne. About 50% of those are in certain branches of Graphic Design that I have no experience in or am not qualified for (Fashion, Packaging, etc.) and would have a hard time getting my foot in the door despite being at a Senior Level of GD.

Then another large chunk of of those jobs are for entry level graphic design with too low a pay and for people just getting out of college / school..... therefore I'm over qualified.

The last time I looked for a job before I got this one, there was about 8 jobs I could actually get and half of those were on the other side of the city, which would mean I would have to wake and leave hours before I had to be there and then spend a crap tonne of money on the transit system for a job that barely covered my living expenses.

And that list of jobs doesn't magically repopulate with another 60 new jobs every few days. You'd typically see 2-3 new jobs pop into that list every 1.5 weeks.

That then forces you to go look for some sh*t part time job at a grocery store that would only cover half of your living expenses and then be forced to work another sh*t part time job to cover the rest of your expenses..... I'm sure many people in here have been in that boat before at one time or another. If you haven't, then you may not realize exactly how hard it is to find the time and money to find a better job to break out of that vicious cycle.

The living costs here in Melbourne are insane. For a half-decent, non-roach infested, non-ghetto place to live you're looking at around $350-450 a week or more..... not a month like back in Nova Scotia..... a WEEK. No utilities or anything else included and you gotta bring your own washer, fridge, etc.

When I left Nova Scotia, I was renting a 2 bedroom apartment (quite nice place actually) for $725 a month. Heath, Hot Water, Fridge, Stove, Laundry, etc. all included.

Now I'm paying about $1400 a month for just the walls and roof.

Want to buy a house?

You better be ready to shell out around $500,000 for a small pokey little old building. Plus gas, electricity, water, and so on on top of all that.

www.domain.com.au/property/fo...011327766&sp=5 (external - login to view)
^ Check out this little beauty. Minimum of $340,000.

Most places that are semi-decent and a bit more "Modern" are up to a $1 million or more.

I understand wanting to make it harder for free loaders to get free money for nothing and it's a problem many countries have to deal with, but this plan Abbott is tossing out there is completely unrealistic and makes things next to impossible for those who actually want to get a job and get out of the rut they're in.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Your payout has a maximum and the time frame is limited in terms of how long you can receive said 'pre-payments'.

Excepting a circumstance of getting on pogey annually, there is little chance that you would ever be able to collect the value of your contributions.

... That's a pretty skewed 'insurance' plan

Indeed... when I had to go on EI between jobs back in Canada, I had to jump through hoops just to get "My Money" I paid out to them and even then they limited how much of "My Money" I was allowed per week and set out specific conditions for me to be eligible for "My Money"

I certainly didn't get back everything I put into it and when it was up, it was up.

Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I don't know how they do things in Australia, but I pay mandatory premiums towards EI here. Should I require it, it had better damn well be available. It's insurance, it's not welfare.

Go between jobs and then try and apply for that EI..... you're going to be in for a surprise in regards to how much BS you have to go through and even more surprised on how much they actually give back to you and for how long.
Last edited by Praxius; Jul 28th, 2014 at 07:34 PM..
 
MHz
#21
The only glitchs are the escape clauses.

Wasn't it originally introduced to keep people in the 'seasonal jobs' positions? Without 'that incentive' they would all be looking for full-time jobs and the industry that needed lots of workers for 1/2 year would see production scaled back dramatically.
 
Twila
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Not really, most insurance is like that as well. You can pay into a LTD or life insurance but try collecting if you're not disabled or dead, so there's a qualifier, lol.

But if you die, you're family gets the money....so long as they didn't kill you and you didn't commit suicide.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

I am going to be so disappointed (in everything) if this still matters at that point in time.

Could you imagine dying, finding yourself concious and then being pissed about money...I'd be trying to walk through walls and such...
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I never claimed it was a well constructed 'insurance plan'....just that premiums are paid into it.

Kinda like a tax, huh?

PS - Self employed, while having to pay into the fund, can not claim against it
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

The only glitchs are the escape clauses.

Wasn't it originally introduced to keep people in the 'seasonal jobs' positions? Without 'that incentive' they would all be looking for full-time jobs and the industry that needed lots of workers for 1/2 year would see production scaled back dramatically.

It is an insurance an designed to meet minimum needs while between jobs if losing the job was not your fault. Seasonal workers need to find another job for the other seasons. Simple as that. The system is not meant to pro ide for a lavish lifestyle for 8 months of the year especially when some seasonal workers (fisherman for example) can make a decent years salary in that 4 to 5 months. The system should also be designed to give incentive to work so paying people 80 or 90% of their salary to sit on their azz is not the way to go. Really it is meant to keep food on the table and the lights on while you find a decent job. That is all.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by PraxiusView Post

Go between jobs and then try and apply for that EI..... you're going to be in for a surprise in regards to how much BS you have to go through and even more surprised on how much they actually give back to you and for how long.

Again, not claiming it's a well structured insurance system, but it's not welfare. If you've never paid into EI, you can't qualify. Similar to CPP vs OAS, one is available to everyone, the other is not.

Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

But if you die, you're family gets the money....so long as they didn't kill you and you didn't commit suicide.

But my point about there being qualifiers stands.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Kinda like a tax, huh?

Yes and no. A tax, income, sales, etc, goes into general revenue and from there to fund any and all programs funding by the government. Everyone pays tax in some way, shape or form, everyone benefits from government sponsored programs. (Without getting into the relative worth of some programs over the other).

Someone who's never worked, has never paid into EI (or CPP) they cannot claim it. Anyone can claim welfare (or OAS), yes there are qualifiers (and/or clawbacks) but employers and employees have no option but to pay into a system that, over the years, has become harder and harder to collect on when needed.

Quote:

PS - Self employed, while having to pay into the fund, can not claim against it

Self-employed can now 'opt in' in order to collect on 'special benefits', like maternity leave or sick leave.
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#26
I don't think the qualifiers are out of realistic terms. To collect you must first work and pay into the pot. Then you cannot be terminated for cause or quit without cause. If you meet those criteria you are eligible. The how much you get and for how long is based upon what you paid in and the unemployment in your area. If unemployment is high in your region you can collect for a longer period. If you pay higher premiums you get more from the program. The hours required for eligibility is also based upon the unemployment rate in your area. I don't see how this is unfair.

Where it is unfair is different eligibility requirements for seasonal workers especially those who make a years wage in 4 or 5 months then don't have to meet the required hours like everyone else.
 
MHz
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

Seasonal workers need to find another job for the other seasons. Simple as that. .

There are 5M more jobs available in Canada in the summer. There are 3M jobs available in Canada in the winter.. The solution for my summer paving career was to cut seismic cut-lines in the swampy areas in the winter and the ice held the heavy equipment up and travel was speedy and effortless as long you were driving a bulldozer. There are only a limited number of jobs like that available in the winter, not enough to take care of all the summer workers. The Province would have been wiser to adjust the school years to work with the out of work season rather than the worker getting off work too late for one semester and back to work before the other semester ended so education was excluded if you wished to hold a position year after year. The extra hours worked and the ei makes the yearly income a balance between the two incomes.

Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

so paying people 80 or 90% of their salary to sit on their azz .

There is a max that is less that $1900/wk and the tax taken off that is blended with the tax taken of in the months when the income is at it's highest levels when the 'ditch-digger' is paying taxes at the same level a doctor does (yearly average) At $40,000 you begin to pay back a certain % so yearly there is a level where the State is claiming everything more or less. The $10,000 you make / month is offset by the $4,000 that is taken off just for income-tax.
 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
+1
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Kinda like a tax, huh?

PS - Self employed, while having to pay into the fund, can not claim against it

Self employed have the option of paying in. The hook is that you must close your company before you can collect.
Anyway the OP was about welfare, not EI. In Canada it is against freeloaders charter rights to force them to work.
 
bill barilko
#29
Quote:

The system is not meant to provide for a lavish lifestyle for 8 months of the year especially when some seasonal workers (fisherman for example) can make a decent years salary in that 4 to 5 months. The system should also be designed to give incentive to work so paying people 80 or 90% of their salary to sit on their azz is not the way to go

Epic cluelessness noted-EI pays 60% of one's former earnings and for no more than 6 months.
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by bill barilkoView Post

Epic cluelessness noted-EI pays 60% of one's former earnings and for no more than 6 months.

I know the rates Bill. It sounded like some in here believe it should be higher. Or go longer.
 

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