The Crimean referendum?


Machjo
+1
#1
This seems to be a diplomatic coup on Russia's part. Essentially, if we oppose the referendum, Russia and Crimeans will accuse the West of being anti-democratic, of being against the will of the people. If Crimea joins Russia and we fight to reseparate it, then we're fighting against the will of the people of Crimea. If Russia backs off, then Ukraine is stuck with constitutional and legal control but little credibility of a Crimea that voted to secede. Either way, even if Russia did give the West what it wanted, how will Ukraine exercise legitimacy in Crimea?

Many questions here.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#2
Compound Crimean complications and considerations, unfolding.
 
MHz
#3
Where was the world's outrage when Quebec held a referendum? Ontario should have been busing people in that would have helped them separate rather than the other way around.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#4
The world didn't care about us MHz. They could have helped us leave Quebec. But now we're stuck to them, it's terrible.

The west has gone on and on about exporting democracy for as long as I've listened. Now they don't even recognize it when it's engaged. Wrong brand.
 
MHz
#5
There seem to be an awful lot of dead bodies everyplace they bring 'democracy' to. No wonder some places are will to fight for a 100 years to stop that from happening.
Last edited by MHz; Mar 16th, 2014 at 03:57 PM..
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#6
referendum=bringing the question back to the people

The opposition has it's answer, now the terrorism will start.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

There seem to be an awful lot of dead bodies everyplace they bring 'democracy' to. No wonder some places are will to fight for a 100 years to stoop that from happening.


Well you can't build a democracy without them, I guess. We get killed and then those of us who survive,we get to vote for the killers.
 
relic
Free Thinker
#7
Ok, convince me this isn't stupid. supposedly 95+% of he people voted for going back to Russia. The folks that were against decided that the bright thing to do was boycott the vote.
 
MHz
#8
What shouldn't be lost is that 93% at the exit polls when only 58% are Russian speaking so a lot of 'normal' Ukrainians also vote that they would be better off with Russia protecting them than it being NATO's role.

Yahoo News Canada - Latest News & Headlines (external - login to view)

Russia Touches U.S. Achilles Heel: Petrogold instead of Petrodollar | InvestmentWatch (external - login to view)
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#9
I swear, z.... Rabies shotz. If it's their decision, they've got to live with it.
 
MHz
#10
What if 'live with it' means Crimea does better than the rest of the Ukraine?
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

What shouldn't be lost is that 93% at the exit polls when only 58% are Russian speaking so a lot of 'normal' Ukrainians also vote that they would be better off with Russia protecting them than it being NATO's role.

Yahoo News Canada - Latest News & Headlines (external - login to view)

Russia Touches U.S. Achilles Heel: Petrogold instead of Petrodollar | InvestmentWatch (external - login to view)

Total votes cast are?
Yep- that would be a first by Russia - a free election.
 
Tonington
+1
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

Where was the world's outrage when Quebec held a referendum?

Compare the choices of the Quebec sovereignty ballot with that of the referendum in Crimea. Oh and the oversight of the elections, ahem machine guns.
 
MHz
#13
Russia's elections were free and fair, the Ukraine elections were free and fair, that Government was then violently overthrown bys US sponsored 'terrorists'. Better get used to the idea that both Russians and Muslims can adopt UN Human rights into their cultures and they become stronger. It is only in the West (and Israel) that those rights interfer with the strangle hold the 3% have on the 97%. The only Muslim countries not adapting are the ones currently under the thumb of the West. The eastern part of the Ukrain will demand they also be given the choice to join Russia rather than the IMF/NATO alliance. It's already starting.

Ukraine's east on fire: Kharkov demands referendum, Donetsk prosecutor?s HQ stormed ? RT News (external - login to view)
Demonstrators in Kharkov, north-east Ukraine, have appealed to Russia to pass to the UN their demands over a referendum on the federalization, while hundreds of protesters in Donetsk stormed a prosecutor’s office demanding to free a local “governor”.
As Crimea decides on its future in a referendum, Sunday in eastern Ukraine was marked by a fresh series of pro-Russian rallies.
In Kharkov, the country’s second-largest city, between 1,500 to 3,000 protesters gathered on the central square demanding a referendum on federalizing Ukraine.
Our city has been Russian and will remain such albeit within Ukraine. We are ready to live in a single country but on our terms,” one of the activists, leader of Civic Platform movement Yury Apukhtin announced from a stage, as cited by Itar-Tass.
After the so-called “popular assembly”, the crowd of demonstrators - chanting pro-Russian slogans and carrying a huge 100-meter long tricolor - proceeded to Russia’s consulate general where they handed over a letter addressed to President Vladimir Putin.

People carry a giant Russian flag during a pro-Russian rally in Kharkiv March 16, 2014.(Reuters / Stringer)

Protesters, on behalf of Kharkov’s assembly, asked Putin to “guarantee their rights and freedoms” and pass to the United Nations their demands regarding a referendum on the federalization, which they plan for April 27, reported Ukrainian National News (UNN) website. Additionally, activists asked to deploy Russian peacekeepers to Kharkov region, adding that they fear for their lives and property.
The demonstrators then marched to the nearby consulate of Poland, protesting against Western interference into Ukrainian affairs.
Kharkov protesters also looted the building housing offices of radical-nationalist organizations, including the Right Sector group, reported Interfax-Ukraine. The activists broke into the building, took out books and nationalist symbols and burnt them.

Pro-Russian activists hold giant Russian flags during their rally in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk on March 16, 2014.(AFP Photo / Alexander Khudoteply)

Donetsk rally demands release of 'people’s governor'

Several thousand pro-Russian protesters took to the streets in Donetsk, a large industrial city in eastern Ukraine.
The demonstrators demanded that the parliament, Verkhovna Rada “remove from power the illegitimate Cabinet and cancel its decision,” cited Itar-Tass. They also urge the creation of a new coalition government, the composition of which would be agreed with the people. Protesters said it was necessary to go back to the February 21 agreement on the crisis settlement, which was signed by ousted President Viktor Yanukovich and opposition leaders and provides for early parliamentary and presidential elections.
Among other demands is giving Russian language a status of a second official tongue and an investigation of killings of law enforcers and protesters on Kiev’s Maidan Square in February.

Pro-Russian demonstrators scuffle with police during a rally in Donetsk March 16, 2014 (Reuters / Stringer)

A crowd of up to 2,000 people reportedly stormed the regional Prosecutor’s Office, demanding to free “people’s governor” Pavel Gubarev. The political activist – who was spontaneously proclaimed the governor during a demonstration on March 1 - was detained on March 6 on charges of violating the territorial integrity of Ukraine, takeover of power, and seizure of government buildings.
Demonstrators broke into in the building, smashed windows, tore off and threw away the Ukrainian national flag and replaced it with Russian, according to Interfax.
Activists also reportedly entered into the office of a company owned by oligarch Sergey Taruta, the head of the regional administration appointed to the post by Kiev authorities. Protesters stated that they consider the governor illegitimate, reported RIA Novosti. Having not found Taruta in the building, protesters then marched to the regional administration office.
Meanwhile, Kiev sent heavy military hardware to the borders with Russia. Activists in eastern Ukraine regions, including Donetsk and Lugansk, were reportedly blocking trains delivering military equipment from the central and western parts of Ukraine.

Pro-Russian activists hold Russian flags and flags with the colours of the ribbon of Saint George, a Russian military decoration, as they storm the prosecutor's office in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk on March 16, 2014 (AFP Photo / Alexander Khudoteply)


Riot police stand guard in front of a regional government building as pro-Russian demonstrators take part in a rally in Kharkiv March 16, 2014 (Reuters / Stringer)
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

Russia's elections were free and fair,

No they were not.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

What if 'live with it' means Crimea does better than the rest of the Ukraine?

So be it
 
Durry
+3
#16  Top Rated Post
You kinda gotta hand it to Putin, he got what he wanted without any bloodshed.

Maybe the West should learn, there are different ways of taking over countries without having to revert to blazing guns!!
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by DurryView Post

You kinda gotta hand it to Putin, he got what he wanted without any bloodshed.

Maybe the West should learn, there are different ways of taking over countries without having to revert to blazing guns!!

This like Georgia was easy game.
 
MHz
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by DurryView Post

You kinda gotta hand it to Putin, he got what he wanted without any bloodshed.

Maybe the West should learn, there are different ways of taking over countries without having to revert to blazing guns!!

When your only industry is war machines that isn't going to happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

This like Georgia was easy game.

It's always easy when that is what the vast majority of the citizens want it a certain way.
 
Durry
+1
#19
It looks to me like Putin has the upper hand here.
The west is just wagging it's finger threatening sanctions etc, but I don't think Putin gives a sh^t what the west says, it's holding the better hand and it could be that it will now start to take over Ukraine or parts of it.
 
Locutus
#20
barry says 'no way'!

"President Obama emphasized that the Crimean 'referendum,' which violates the Ukrainian constitution and occurred under duress of Russian military intervention, would never be recognized by the United States and the international community,"

Obama to Putin: US readying 'additional costs' over Crimea (external - login to view)
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by DurryView Post

It looks to me like Putin has the upper hand here.
The west is just wagging it's finger threatening sanctions etc, but I don't think Putin gives a sh^t what the west says, it's holding the better hand and it could be that it will now start to take over Ukraine or parts of it.

Putin certainly has the support of our Obama-haters.
 
El Barto
-1
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by LocutusView Post

barry says 'no way'!

"President Obama emphasized that the Crimean 'referendum,' which violates the Ukrainian constitution and occurred under duress of Russian military intervention, would never be recognized by the United States and the international community,"

Obama to Putin: US readying 'additional costs' over Crimea (external - login to view)

So Loc ... what would you do?
 
darkbeaver
Republican
+2
#23
The international community? What a load of sh it. The so called international community is very select, bankers and corporations.
 
MHz
#24
"The Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea... declares Crimea an independent sovereign state -- the Republic of Crimea," the document said.
It said that from Monday, Ukrainian laws would no longer apply in Crimea and decisions taken by the Ukrainian state since the ouster of Kremlin-backed president Viktor Yanukovych last month had no authority.
Crimea Declares Independence from Ukraine, Applies to Join Russia — Naharnet (external - login to view)
What would the maritime borders look like for the Republic of Crimea look like? Those latest laws would also apply to the rest of the Ukraine in that they are not an elected Govt so Crimea can move ahead and get lots of money from Russia and the rest of the Ukraine can't do anything until they have a voted in Govt which is a few months down the road. This vote also shows the huge delays the US does when doing things is intentional, as is the vote in the Ukraine and the time Syria was given to start getting rid of their chemical weapons, the US gave them 6 months, with Russia's 'help' Syria was ready to ship them to a location once the boats were there to take the stuff away, those still haven't all arrived even though they are US war ships.

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

The international community? What a load of sh it. The so called international community is very select, bankers and corporations.

Lets see how many at the UN buck the US by recognizing Crimea as being independent., that could be a telling point for what happens in the near future.

Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Putin certainly has the support of our Obama-haters.

Post the current approval ratings of the two leaders, lets see which crowd is 'bigger' your side or the right side.
 
Machjo
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

Compare the choices of the Quebec sovereignty ballot with that of the referendum in Crimea. Oh and the oversight of the elections, ahem machine guns.

Outside the voting booths, not in them. Still secret ballot. Besides, it would backfire big time if some other referendum shows the opposite result, so I'm sure Russia would be careful not to mess with that. Heck even the people in the streets were convinced they'd win.

Quote: Originally Posted by DurryView Post

You kinda gotta hand it to Putin, he got what he wanted without any bloodshed.

Maybe the West should learn, there are different ways of taking over countries without having to revert to blazing guns!!

Putin did his homework before stormin' in guns ablazin'.
 
mentalfloss
#26
The crux of this whole issue seems to be the legitimacy of this referendum.

Russia sends tanks in to 'protect' people but the rest of the world thinks it was a means to influence a vote.


If there is evidence that there was no such influence, then Putin could be justified. If there is clear evidence that this was a military offensive, then the rest of the world is right.

In any case, people are playing politics with this uncertainty.

The worst example being these American right wingers who would support a friggin communist regime just because they don't like the guy that's currently in power in the U.S.
 
Blackleaf
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

Where was the world's outrage when Quebec held a referendum? Ontario should have been busing people in that would have helped them separate rather than the other way around.


I'm assuming that referendum (which the pro-Canadians just about won by the skin of their teeth) was legal. The Crimean one isn't.

Quote: Originally Posted by DurryView Post

You kinda gotta hand it to Putin, he got what he wanted without any bloodshed.

Maybe the West should learn, there are different ways of taking over countries without having to revert to blazing guns!!

It's easy to take over a piece of land without any bloodshed when the vast majority of people of that land want you to take over them.

The Russians "invading" Crimea without any bloodshed is just as easy as the British "invading" the Falklands or Gibraltar without any bloodshed.

There is nothing here that "the West should learn".
 
Machjo
+1
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

The crux of this whole issue seems to be the legitimacy of this referendum.

Russia sends tanks in to 'protect' people but the rest of the world thinks it was a means to influence a vote.


If there is evidence that there was no such influence, then Putin could be justified. If there is clear evidence that this was a military offensive, then the rest of the world is right.

Not entirely. Even if the referendum was totally above-board, Russia was still wrong in violating international law. The problem though is how much credibility do the US and Canada have in preaching international law when we've thumbed our noses at it ourselves and say it's not worth the paper it's written on?

We say it violates the Ukrainian Constitution, but did the invasion of Iraq not violate the Iraqi Constitution too? If you say Iraq wasn't democratic, then in relative terms what about Ukraine not giving Crimea a referendum?

So this referendum still does not excuse Putin's actions. The issue here is that we're the pot calling the kettle black, with the pot maybe being blacker still.
 
Kreskin
+1
#29
I am suspicious of the 95% result. That seems statistically impossible. You could hold a poll asking if the world should explode and end and you'll get about 85-90% responding 'no'.
 
mentalfloss
#30
Fair point Machjo.

Would you say that international law was flawed or justified in this circumstance?
 

Similar Threads

0
Your 60-second guide to the Crimean War
by Blackleaf | Mar 9th, 2014
27
PQ is threatening a third referendum.
by Vancouverite | Aug 4th, 2012
0
NDP wants referendum on Senate
by CBC News | Nov 5th, 2007
29
Referendum election?
by DasFX | Dec 13th, 2005
no new posts