Lax gun laws prove deadly in the U.S.

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
By Olivia Ward
Foreign Affairs Reporter
Toronto Star

America has recoiled in horror over the shooting rampage in Arizona but throughout the country some 30,000 people die each year of gunshot wounds — about one-third of the 98,000 who are shot.

The most recent violence has turned the spotlight once again on a system that fuels gun crime and, say some, is giving in to an “extremist” minority of gun advocates at the expense of national safety.

“We need more sensible laws, and we need a change in social norms,” says David Hemenway, a Harvard professor of health policy and expert in gun violence. “But the sad thing is that too many people are cowed by the gun lobby. And on a typical day in the U.S. there are 80 deaths from firearms.”

Arizona’s laws allow lethal weapons to be concealed as well as easily purchased. And, says the Washington-based Violence Policy Center, there is a strong link between lax laws and shooting deaths.

“Laws keep down the gun population,” says the centre’s executive director Josh Sugarmann. “But states with the most lax laws and the highest gun density tend to have the highest overall deaths.”

Arizona is ninth in state firearm deaths. Its rate for 2007 was about 15 per 100,000, exceeding the national average of 10.

Louisiana, where 46 per cent of households have guns, has highest figure, of 20 per 100,000. In the lowest ranking state, Hawaii, with a gun death rate of 3 per 100,000, only 10 per cent of households have guns, according to U.S. statistics.

“When you look at the rates of homicide without guns in the U.S. it’s only slightly higher than in Canada,” says Ryerson University professor Wendy Cukier, author of The Global Gun Epidemic. “But rates of homicide with guns are much higher. It shows that the availability of guns is very important.”

Both state and national laws have been crucially weakened over the past decade — including a Supreme Court ruling that makes home ownership of guns a right, and the expiry of a federal ban on extended ammunition clips for automatic weapons, which police say permitted Jared Lee Loughner to attach a clip that could fire up to 33 bullets without reloading.

Critics say even the laws that exist are poorly enforced and monitored.

On Tuesday, gun-control advocates called for reforms of the federal background check system that allowed Loughner to buy two weapons in the past two years: a shotgun and a semi-automatic pistol that attracts gun lovers with its “fantastic firepower.”

In spite of Loughner’s encounters with police over alleged drug use, he purchased the weapons from a sporting goods shop that apparently found no record of his dismissed drug charge, or run-ins with community college police.

“The Arizona tragedy has once again exposed fatal cracks in our background check system,” said New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who joined with other civic leaders and police Tuesday to outline ways of keeping guns from the hands of the violent and unstable.

“It should be clear to everyone that the system is broken and it is time for our leaders in Washington to step up and fix it,” he said.

Gun control advocates say that the complaint is nothing new, and in spite of spectacular shooting attacks little has been done to improve the U.S.’s gun violence record, which is the worst of all the industrial countries. Nor has it changed under President Barack Obama, an avowed supporter of firearm control when he ran for election.

“In just one year (he) has signed into law more repeals of federal gun policies than in president George W. Bush’s eight years in office,” says the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a leading gun control lobby group.

“From the repeal of Reagan-era rules keeping loaded guns out of national parks to the repeal of post-9/11 policies to safeguard Amtrak from armed terrorist attacks, President Obama’s stance on guns has endangered our communities and threatened our national security.”

It's not that you can buy a gun that you can hide very very easily. Nor is it that you can now get a 31 round clip so that you can max out the kill potential. The problem is that charges rather than convictions, along with college police (rent a cop) reports are not included in back ground checks that's the problem?
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
140
63
Backwater, Ontario.
:roll:America "recoiled in horror" when JFK got shot.
Likewise Bobby Kennedy.
Likewise Martin Luther King.
Likewise John Lennon.
on and on.

Maybe they enjoy "recoiling in horror"
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Not just better gun laws alone.

The whole mental health industry would need to be revamped as well.

Confidentiality, oft finds itself in stark contrast to public safety.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
1,665
113
Northern Ontario,
It's not that you can buy a gun that you can hide very very easily. Nor is it that you can now get a 31 round clip so that you can max out the kill potential. The problem is that charges rather than convictions, along with college police (rent a cop) reports are not included in back ground checks that's the problem?

Exactly: If he had been flagged by the college since they ejected him as a nutter, he wouldn't have been able to legaly buy that firearm.
You would think that after 9/11 there would be more cooperation between all those institutions.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
Exactly: If he had been flagged by the college since they ejected him as a nutter, he wouldn't have been able to legaly buy that firearm.
You would think that after 9/11 there would be more cooperation between all those institutions.

The other side of the coin of course is that few people if any would be allowed to own a gun as any charge, would show up and disqualify them. Of course if you don't bother with back ground checks it doesn't matter what's in your past.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,336
113
Vancouver Island
Not convinced that tougher gun laws would have prevented this. Handguns have been licensed in Canada since the 30s and automatics are illegal yet look at how many criminals have them and they are not registered. Gun laws mostly only affect honest people. Instead of focusing on ownership perhaps they should look at the manufacturing and importing end since it is fairly hard to purchase something that does not exist.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
Not convinced that tougher gun laws would have prevented this. Handguns have been licensed in Canada since the 30s and automatics are illegal yet look at how many criminals have them and they are not registered.

Ok, how many?

Gun laws mostly only affect honest people. Instead of focusing on ownership perhaps they should look at the manufacturing and importing end since it is fairly hard to purchase something that does not exist.

No sure what you mean by this. How is looking at how something is made or how it's imported fit into this?
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
54
Oshawa
Last time I read this story the gun didn't shoot the congresswoman all on it's own.

Did new evidence surface?
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
First of all, before any restrictive gun laws can be legitimately introduced in the United States, the Second Amendment must be repealed.

AFTER you've managed to have it repealed, you can start talking about strict gun control.

Good luck with that.

Not.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
1,665
113
Northern Ontario,
The other side of the coin of course is that few people if any would be allowed to own a gun as any charge, would show up and disqualify them. Of course if you don't bother with back ground checks it doesn't matter what's in your past.

In this last case, a background check was done, since he bought the gun legaly in november but he had never been flagged as a nut case by anyone.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
Looked at the opening article to this thread.....

Wow! Not a single word about the opposing pro-gun position!!!!!

That's what I love about the Star.....you don't have to bothering thinking when you read it.... :)
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
5,959
66
48
Quebec
Sure we can tighten gun laws , and yes it will help to some degree. The odd thing is we never see the law when it does work. Bears point on the mental health industry is right, but also every demand that is red flagged should also be noted as a second step.
The flip side of gun laws it will not help with black market purchase.
It is true the guns don't kill people but people kill people. This guy could of used a knive , a bomb ,molitov, got hands of an 18 wheeler and ran through the crowd. When it comes to killing , if there's a will there's a way.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
One of the things about tougher gun laws is that they are always a slippery slope.

So ban high capacity 9mms and 30 round mags....that'll make everyone safe, without detracting from "legitimate" gun use, won't it?

No.

First of all, the Second Amendment ain't about duck hunting....it's about personal weapons used in combat.

Second of all.....disappearing all the 9mm Glocks in the USA will make no difference....nor will taking away 30 round mags, nor grabbing all the semi-autos.

I have an old duck gun..........a Mossberg Model 500. Pump action. It holds six rounds, if you take the 30 seconds required to remove the magazine plug.

I can buy 2 3/4 inch magnum SSG..........each shell carries twelve .33 caliber pellets, that exit the barrel at about the same velocity as a 9mm.....

Six times 12 is 72.

In other words, with my old duck gun, I can put out twice the lethal lead that this idiot did with his 30 round mag.....and I could do it quicker.

So are you going to ban my old duck gun????

You can't be both free and safe.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Harder to conceal a duck hunting gun...I don't think anyone would believe you if you told them it was Viagra Colpy :lol:
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
I have always said you can have all the gun laws you want and people would still die at the
barrel of a gun. One forgets there are literally millions of guns already out there and no
amount of law will change that. What we need is some common sense but that apparently
died years ago. I agree the law must intrude to ensure those with criminal records and the
mental cases don't have legal and I say Legal access to guns. There is nothing we can do
about those with illegal possession of guns and as soon as we understand that, we will then
understand the issue. There are enough laws in our society (Canada) if we were to actually
enforce them. There in lies the problem, the law in this country does not enforce the gun
laws or a whole host of other laws on the books. It matters not, we have drug laws with the
you guessed it, minimum sentences, we have child porn people and child molesters who
get, yup the minimum sentence. Then we address the gun laws.
That is a story in and of itself. Everyone cries bloody murder when a gun crime is committed,
the Justice Minister appears on TV, the Head of State appears on TV and then the Judge
gives out a wimpy sentence and all we hear from the politicians is Silence. They all claim, the
Judge handed down a sentence and that is the law. Has anyone told these parliamentarians
they are elected to the House of Commons to change the laws that need to be changed and
to see that the present laws are enforced.
It is not enough to leave it to the judiciary, we need appointments to the bench to reflect the
need for justice and the security of the nation while showing compassion for extenuating
circumstances. What we have now is convenient inaction. Oh and for those who claim we
can take all the guns back because people will be good citizens and turn them in to the nearest
police station? I have bad news, there are thousands of guns under dirt, patio's and barns all
over this country.and the reason is not because people want to be criminals, but be damned if
we are going to give our weapons to a society we no longer trust. Now let me be clear, I do not
own a gun, and I don't want one. I don't begrudge people the legal ownership of guns, and I do
understand that there will always be illegal guns. In fact if we run the risk of having more guns
on the street if we enact restrictive laws that cannot be enforced. People who are not
criminals are made into criminals overnight.
We need to re-think the laws we presently have and shore the ones up that need it and stop the
treadmill of inaction on all kinds of issues while we are preoccupied by issues there are no clear
cut answers for. Oh ya, life goes on and on and on, but they will discussing gun control for
decades, along with a host of other issues because as a society we deal with symptoms instead
of addressing the problems that really confront us.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
Harder to conceal a duck hunting gun...I don't think anyone would believe you if you told them it was Viagra Colpy :lol:


A LOT of viagra.........even if you cut it off it would still have to be 16 inches long.....

The shotgun barrel, I mean.....

:)

Seriously......if you are going on a shooting spree, who needs to conceal it?

In a society with tough gun laws, who is going to stop you???
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
A LOT of viagra.........even if you cut it off it would still have to be 16 inches long.....

The shotgun barrel, I mean.....

:)

Seriously......if you are going on a shooting spree, who needs to conceal it?

In a society with tough gun laws, who is going to stop you???

Well if you are in Toronto the police. No one gets to walk around with a gun and not attract attention. That's why smaller hand guns are the choice rather than the old duck gun. A sawed off shotgun will fit under a coat much better than a long gun. So from leaving the house to getting to the spot you've chosen for this shooting spree of yours, you have to get past a lot of police and even the hint of a gun draws a huge cop presence.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
9,949
21
38
kelowna bc
We can demand all the laws we want it still won't end the problem of gun violence.
Yes, we need to make sure that those with special problems don't get legal access
to guns, but in the majority of cases, the guns they get their hands on are smuggled
in or stolen or were once part of the drug trade. And no one is going to make me
believe we will ever stop the drug trade. We must enforce the laws on the books if
we want people to respect the law as it is. Only when we do that will be on the road
to achieving sufficient respect for the law period