Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free
You are attempting to use a straw man fallacy against me.
I'm not using straws for anything..... I stated very obvious questions which can help to understand just about any situation in life, and I pointed out the fact that we as a western society, or in more detail, our governments have done plenty of things to them to not make us as so innocent as some may want to believe.
You can call it whatever you want to.... I call it basic truth without going into excessive detailing. If you want the details, start digging up a bunch of threads and reports to better understand the situation.
I am hard on the irrationality inherent in religion. The more irrational it gets the harder on it I get. I do this out of direct personal experience having known a great many zealots in my time. Faith must be directly challenged because that is the only thing that shakes its foundations. It is not a coincidence that such confrontation brings out violent acts; it does so because it challenges the ludicrous beliefs but do not think for one moment not confronting zealotry will prevent violence because that will only encourage zealotry and thereby further limit what you can say (or do).
Although there may appear that there is nothing but irrationality within most, if not all, religions..... there is a level of rationality none the less.... one only has to listen and understand. You don't have to agree with their rationality and you very well could be offended by it.... but if you are willing to understand it and meet on level ground to meet their concerns, the progress can be made. When nobody is listening, nobody is taking you seriously, and you are branded the evilest thing on the planet, extremist actions can usually be the only or last resort for many to take, because that seems to be the only way people will listen to you.
Eventually the reasons and motives for going down this route get lost and all that is focused on are the evil things done.... which in a way is fair..... but it's easy to forget what started it all in the first place.
So if you don't know how the situation started.... how do you know how to finish it?
As for your statement: yes, we (the west) have done a lot of bad things to people in the third world. Yes, people need something to live for. Yes, freedom and liberty of all people should be respected. I have never ever said otherwise.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion." ~ Steven Weinberg (external - login to view),
And he's wrong.... as I know of plenty of people who don't follow religion who still do some pretty nasty things...... Religion or lack of has nothing to do with what people can and will do. Of course many wars throughout time have been started based on religious reasoning..... but many others haven't.
His quote is a blanket statement, and I know of plenty of religions which are none violent.
Not when it comes to zealots. They treat you only as they were commanded to.
When you treat them with absolutes, they respond with absolute actions. There are extremist and moderates in many religions..... but what causes people to join the extremist parts?
If you don't focus on the causes and roots, then you'll never solve the problem.
Thinking that extremist can not be negotiated or talked to is narrow minded as I see it.
Straw man, I never maintained our innocence.
I was speaking in general, not towards anything that you said.
"The god of the cannibals will be a cannibal, of the crusaders a crusader, and of the merchants a merchant." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson (external - login to view)
The god of terrorists will be a terrorist.
Out of all the different factions of each religion, you can not generalize like the above quote or as you just put it. Many people have their own interpretations of what rules and guidelines should be followed in their relgion, and just because one group stands out more then others, doesn't make them more popular, nor does it make their beliefs the right ones for that religion.
This is the main problem.... generalizations..... when you throw an entire spectrum of beliefs into one group, then don't expect anything good to come out of it.
You just said in a previous post about the differences between adults and children..... well when you treat a child in a negative manner, they react in a negative manner..... when you treat a group of people in a negative manner, they will react in a negative manner.
Straw man, I never said the west was. I have opposed the Iraq war from day one.
It is not a straw, because that was also general question to anybody, not specifically yourself. It was a point to elaborate on the rest of what I was explaining. I didn't claim you said anything like what I just said..... I asked a question.
There might have been a reason for Afghanistan but when bin Laden escaped we should have left. Even there I have my doubts. He clearly denied he had anything to do with 9/11.
Which I also agree apon, since there has been recorded documents and reports very shortly after the attack that he claimed he had nothing to do with it..... if he did, why would he deny his involvement, only to later brag about it on questionable audio tapes filtered by the US due to National Security? (Another general question not directed towards you.)
The American evidence against him is poor to say the least.
I'm certain bin Laden would have owned up to 9/11 had it been him who did it; terrorists do seem to like taking credit for things.
Agreed.... which is also why I have great doubts on those so-called audio tapes..... why would he make public comments via video (Which were filtered and much of it blocked by the US) then all of a sudden everything else is just on audio..... which could be anybody who's good at acting?
None of it adds up. To me.... the reason why they are extremist and now going after Western forces is because they got pinned the bad guys based on crap evidence....... which is where I come from the position that they had ligit reasons to take the actions they now are taking, due to the child explination used above.
But to think we can not toss out the idiots who lied to us and put us into the position we currently are in, and open talks with them to resolve this current mess in the world, simply because of what we have been told about their religious beliefs is narrow viewed imo.
That's the only real point I'm trying to make.
I feel no need to impose such gross violations of liberty such as war on anyone. That was a crusader war brought on by yet another religious nut case.
Indeed..... in my view, based on the factual evidence provided, regardless of whoever was behind the attack in New York, Bush started this religious crap...... they are reacting based on defense. Bush told them to hand over Bin Ladin..... they probably knew what would have happened to him and they had their own questions on what happened, so they didn't...... so now we have one big open war on everybody the US doesn't like..... .and I'm personally pissed off that we're a part of it.
I also find it interesting that this war was planned prior to 9/11 by the Bush administration due to the Taliban rejecting their desire to have a pipline pass through afghanistan for their own profits and greed....... then there's the whole oil grab from Iraq.... which doesn't seem to be working either.
But that doesn't mean this war crap has only one solution, AKA: entire distruction of one side or another. I feel we have to own up to our own responsibilities, correct the mistakes we have made, punish those who have done wrong and set things straight....... then can some form of real peace be made.
So long as we allow leaders like Bush and assoc. stay in power and get away with bloody murder for money and greed, and so long as they see this continuing, they will continue to fight....... and unfortunatly, so will we...... the problem is, the longer this goes on, the more clouded the original reasons become, and then eventually everybody is going to forget what started all this crap and just remember the propaganda.
Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion -— several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven. ~ Mark Twain (external - login to view)
Just so you know.... I'm not a religious follower either.... but I do hold respect for most of their principles, and I'm not afraid to shoot my mouth off when I feel they have done wrong.
In order to understand where we are going, we have to understand where we've been.....
Nonsense. The Taliban can only exist in an environment of profound ignorance. If we made education a priority in Afghanistan it could be stomped out within a generation.
It could be. Then again, any religion can only exist in an environment of ignorance..... why else has the US cut back so much on their education systems and now seem to have a larger religious following then they did about a decade ago?
This can be applied to all religions depending. When you don't understand something, you turn to relgion for the answers.
I'm not saying the Taliban are wonderful people..... but I see very little difference in their rule in Afghanistan compared to say Iran...... should we rush in there and change their entire way of life to suit what we think is right?
They have plenty of executions and they follow muslim traditions.... many of which do not agree with our way of life...... and yet, I don't see us trying to take them out.
Possibly due to their military power in comparison to the Taliban's in Afghanistan, but it also could be because of how developed and functioning their nation is.
Just because some people don't follow our way of life and just because they hold to beliefs we may not completely understand, doesn't make them monsters or enemies. I bet on the flip side, if you lived their lives in their cultures, fed their media much like how we're fed our media..... you'd probably hate our guts too.
Straw? Nope.... just common sense applied to relation..... not to mention viewing their own media reports, their people's personal opinions and views on us, and comparing the differences. Propaganda exists everywhere.
Agreed, the terrorist v.s. the crusader.
Indeed.... but the Terrorist and Cursader changes when you view it from their side. On their side of things, they're Holy Warriors vs. Forign Occupiers..... pretty much the same thing as I see it..... they're called terrorists, because it works..... they're also called terrorists because their tactics arn't you're standard military tactics.
^ Which I find pretty funny, because it was the US who labeled them Terrorists because of these tactics..... when during the Revolutionary War, the US used Guerilla Tactics against the British, rather then lining up at 10 feet and getting shot..... to the British.... they were terrorists and denied POW status when captured.
Now the shoe is on the other foot, the US didn't learn anything, and now they're doing exactly what they fought against.
The US used these tactics because they were out gunned and out numbered...... The Taliban/Al'Q are also out numbered.... or at least out gunned..... the US knew they wouldn't win against the British if they fought on their grounds...... the Taliban/Al'Q know they won't win against us if they fight on our grounds.
To me, the entire situation is so hypocritical it's sad.
You do not understand the religious mind then. When you have any large group of people that think they are the masters - the chosen among men - you will never have peace no matter how appeasing you become.
That depends on who you're talking to.... .it also depends on who you're getting your information from.
Straw man again, I never said to wipe anyone out. That would be ludicrous.
Once again, not a straw, it was a general question. I never said you said that.
What I said is that I will challenge their beliefs in a brutal fashion.
Then expect to get a continuing brutal response.
Remember the child anology.