The Professional Victim
- Thread starter CDNBear
- Start date
Bear - what a timely post! ;-)
This very subject has been on my mind of late too. Who hasn't encountered someone who's trapped in the perpetual cycle of victimhood? I think we all have at one time or another.
A rather sad thing I've learned from knowing such people is they're not so much the victim, as the perpetrator of their own victimhood. Unfortunately, they invariably need a 'fall-guy' to play the role of abuser in order to create the other half of that equation - the victim. I know this isn't a news flash, but it's one thing to 'know' it, and quite another to 'live' it.
There's alot we can learn about ourselves when we're in the midst of such behaviour - who we become when we're in the presence of such people - how we are forced to find new ways to retain our hold on compassion - and express that compassion - without feeding the beast.
I've many thoughts on this subject, but I'd like to read the link you posted more fully... and I'd love to read some insights from other folks who've encountered such people in their personal lives - people they may have been close with - family, friends etc... how have others coped with persistent victims?
This very subject has been on my mind of late too. Who hasn't encountered someone who's trapped in the perpetual cycle of victimhood? I think we all have at one time or another.
A rather sad thing I've learned from knowing such people is they're not so much the victim, as the perpetrator of their own victimhood. Unfortunately, they invariably need a 'fall-guy' to play the role of abuser in order to create the other half of that equation - the victim. I know this isn't a news flash, but it's one thing to 'know' it, and quite another to 'live' it.
There's alot we can learn about ourselves when we're in the midst of such behaviour - who we become when we're in the presence of such people - how we are forced to find new ways to retain our hold on compassion - and express that compassion - without feeding the beast.
I've many thoughts on this subject, but I'd like to read the link you posted more fully... and I'd love to read some insights from other folks who've encountered such people in their personal lives - people they may have been close with - family, friends etc... how have others coped with persistent victims?
Zan, I tried to help. I wouldn't feed the victim cycle and I was chastised, I wouldn't support the passive aggressive behavior and I was villainised. I was sucked dry of all the compassion I could muster, until I emploded. And thusly the opposite reaction took place, I exploded. Of course what does the perpetual victim make of that?
More victimization.
In my emotional release, I fed the victim. Lost friends and almost lost my mind(Figuratively speaking).
There is no rationalising with a perpetual victim. You either succumb to the truth as they see it, or you are the enemy.
I spent nights in fear, that the next day I would be reading a post from the victims family, about how the victim took their own life. This fear pushed my to fold and cuddle the victim without overtly feeding it. But you can't. There is no half way. If you cuddle, condone, acquiesce in anyway, you are perpetuating the issue.
I don't know how else to deal with the professional victim, other then to cut them off.
I know it looks cold and heartless, but I haven't the skills or knowledge to handle one.
I hope someone with greater knowledge, compassion or heart, can shed some light on this and let me know a better way.
More victimization.
In my emotional release, I fed the victim. Lost friends and almost lost my mind(Figuratively speaking).
There is no rationalising with a perpetual victim. You either succumb to the truth as they see it, or you are the enemy.
I spent nights in fear, that the next day I would be reading a post from the victims family, about how the victim took their own life. This fear pushed my to fold and cuddle the victim without overtly feeding it. But you can't. There is no half way. If you cuddle, condone, acquiesce in anyway, you are perpetuating the issue.
I don't know how else to deal with the professional victim, other then to cut them off.
I know it looks cold and heartless, but I haven't the skills or knowledge to handle one.
I hope someone with greater knowledge, compassion or heart, can shed some light on this and let me know a better way.
Bear, if I may in all seriousness. One who feels victimized is trapped in their own pity, drawing on the negativity that happen on or around them instead of grasping for a string of positivity and clinging to that to draw them out of it.
I grant that bad things happen to folk, it goes without saying, but it's all about the attitude attached afterwards as to what and how they handle it.
Like you, I was trapped by someone else's victimization but I didn't realize it at the time. I bent backwards to help my friend, I did anything I could to try to encourage them and get past it. I was guilty of feeding into it for lack of knowledge at the time. I realized later it was a choice they made on their part to stay there and sadly in my case they left by their own hands. godspeed.
Many people had tried to help in all different ways. I'm convinced my friend didn't really want help but pity. Pity even to the ultimate extreme.
Life is a choice. So isn't wallowing in mire. As a friend, my advice for you to your friend is to tell that person exactly as you see it, then walk away-cut the cord. To keep being part of their depression will keep them dependant on you and those who want to help. They have to stand on their own two feet, on their own power to walk away from it, to become independant and free of it.
I too, years ago, was into the pity. It seemed it was a way I found to draw attention to myself, and I craved attention. I let myself get deep into it and it wasn't until my friends told me how they felt, how I drained them so much emotionally and wished not to be around me, only then did I climb out of it because I valued them and their words and they spoke the truth to me. It wasn't easy for me to stop doing it. It had became a part of the way I lived, a habit I had to break.
Just look at me now. I have a list of reasons to go back to the mire and roll around in it; or be strong, grab the good -casting the bad aside- and turn my situations into positives. I choose the good, happy, strong, independent way. I hope your friend will too soon enough.
It's not selfish for you to walk away from your friend. It's selfish for them to entangle you in their pity and depression and drag you down. To walk away is self-preservation.
Something I've noticed about people in my day, is that these sorts of attitudes end up habitual.
Someone can decide that they no longer want to be a victim, yet, will often use language that makes them so, and points back to what has happened to them. They often don't even realize that they're doing it or what it implies about them.
One of the ones that strikes me the clearest is when women on debate forums, who have been beaten or raped or physically attacked in any way by a man in the real world, haul that abuse into any debate with a man which gets heated.
"Fine, attack me if you like, but don't expect me to take it like I did when my boyfriend/husband/father _____. I'm fed up with men beating on me."
I've seen it from probably 20 different women in my time on the forum, and it paints the word victim on them from that point on it seems.
Someone can decide that they no longer want to be a victim, yet, will often use language that makes them so, and points back to what has happened to them. They often don't even realize that they're doing it or what it implies about them.
One of the ones that strikes me the clearest is when women on debate forums, who have been beaten or raped or physically attacked in any way by a man in the real world, haul that abuse into any debate with a man which gets heated.
"Fine, attack me if you like, but don't expect me to take it like I did when my boyfriend/husband/father _____. I'm fed up with men beating on me."
I've seen it from probably 20 different women in my time on the forum, and it paints the word victim on them from that point on it seems.
I really hope you or anyone else doesn't see me in that way. If any does, please tell me and I'll try harder.
I wanna be a ray of sunshine :lol:, frig the doom and gloom.
I've noticed that too, and try for the most part to walk away from them because it's obvious that's where they are headed.
8O Doom and gloom? "Poor me" doesn't survive well where there are trolls have been known to lurk. Ahh ... sometimes they do serve useful purpose. Those fish forums are full of victims.
Woof!
This is so timely for me. Just recently realized two people in my life were like this. One is now gone. He was my friend's live in boyfriend and was absolutely nuts. Nothing was his fault. He completely downplayed how much other people had done to help him because then the screw ups would have to be his fault eh? He finally moved out yesterday, crying, apologizing... but he made sure to steal $20 from my friend's purse before he left. He's gonna pay her back right, so she's completely unreasonable and mean to make a big deal out of it...
My other one is harder to cut off. She's my roomate. I think my real problem was just not knowing enough before I let her move in. It was after she was fired from her job and I thought that kind of bad luck can happen to anyone once. Didn't know it wasn't the first job she's lost since moving here. It was the second in six months (she's since lost 2 other jobs but of course none of it was her fault, other people were being mean to her). After losing that first job I knew about, she got sick and needed surgery which could happen to anyone (nevermind the fact that most people have some money in a savings account to deal with such things). I told her she could stay with me and not worry about rent until she got back on her feet. Didn't realize she'd take that to mean three months... or that she'd be getting massages and taking private pilates classes rather than paying me the money she owes me. Oh, did I forget to mention I loaned her $1500 to go home for her surgery? Over a year later she still owes me about $900 of that. Today is the 3rd and I still haven't gotten her March rent either. Of course when I bring things like that up, I'm being insensitive and just using her for money. She is absolutely incapable of seeing that her behavior is ever wrong. She'll bitch about someone doing something and then do the same thing to me but not even realize that it's wrong when she does it too. I can't tell you how many times I've heard her talk about our friends ex-boyfriend mentionned above. He's lazy, irresponsible, immature, can't hold a job and is so disrespectful for not paying his own way in life. Uh huh.... and since you do the same things, that would make you....? She also takes personal offense to bizarre things. If I take the dog for a walk and don't ask her if she wants to come, then it's because I don't like her. If I get up early in the morning and go out, it's because I don't like her. If I'm engrossed in a movie and don't want to talk that second, it's because I don't like her. If I buy her a nice dinner for her birthday it's just because I'm trying to give her money so she will have to go away and not bother me. I let her stay rent free as long as I did because I like holding that over her. Even though I never said anything about it, she knew I was thinking it the whole time. I think that's a crazy level of narcissism. It's absolutely bizarre, but she really thinks that everything I do is to send her some coded message. My solution to the issue was just to stop investing myself emotionally. I'm pleasant to her, but I don't think she's really a friend. I'll be nice until I buy a place and move in the next few months. There is no point in arguing with her because then she just cries and I find it too awkward to deal with.
My other one is harder to cut off. She's my roomate. I think my real problem was just not knowing enough before I let her move in. It was after she was fired from her job and I thought that kind of bad luck can happen to anyone once. Didn't know it wasn't the first job she's lost since moving here. It was the second in six months (she's since lost 2 other jobs but of course none of it was her fault, other people were being mean to her). After losing that first job I knew about, she got sick and needed surgery which could happen to anyone (nevermind the fact that most people have some money in a savings account to deal with such things). I told her she could stay with me and not worry about rent until she got back on her feet. Didn't realize she'd take that to mean three months... or that she'd be getting massages and taking private pilates classes rather than paying me the money she owes me. Oh, did I forget to mention I loaned her $1500 to go home for her surgery? Over a year later she still owes me about $900 of that. Today is the 3rd and I still haven't gotten her March rent either. Of course when I bring things like that up, I'm being insensitive and just using her for money. She is absolutely incapable of seeing that her behavior is ever wrong. She'll bitch about someone doing something and then do the same thing to me but not even realize that it's wrong when she does it too. I can't tell you how many times I've heard her talk about our friends ex-boyfriend mentionned above. He's lazy, irresponsible, immature, can't hold a job and is so disrespectful for not paying his own way in life. Uh huh.... and since you do the same things, that would make you....? She also takes personal offense to bizarre things. If I take the dog for a walk and don't ask her if she wants to come, then it's because I don't like her. If I get up early in the morning and go out, it's because I don't like her. If I'm engrossed in a movie and don't want to talk that second, it's because I don't like her. If I buy her a nice dinner for her birthday it's just because I'm trying to give her money so she will have to go away and not bother me. I let her stay rent free as long as I did because I like holding that over her. Even though I never said anything about it, she knew I was thinking it the whole time. I think that's a crazy level of narcissism. It's absolutely bizarre, but she really thinks that everything I do is to send her some coded message. My solution to the issue was just to stop investing myself emotionally. I'm pleasant to her, but I don't think she's really a friend. I'll be nice until I buy a place and move in the next few months. There is no point in arguing with her because then she just cries and I find it too awkward to deal with.
tracy, that sounds SO much like many of my friends. They like to critique others, and I've had to say a few times., "for every fault you see in someone, they see one in you." Some have gotten what I was trying to say, some just breeze past it and carry on their critiquing ways. I try to take this sort of stuff and internalize it, apply it to my own life to improve and constantly grown, you know? But others just like to throw their complaints out to the world instead.
It makes me laugh because there is such a lack of self awareness in people who do that. I'm not going to say I've never bitched about someone, but I don't sit around doing the same thing I complain about them doing and think my sh#t doesn't stink, kwim?
I really think the lack of self awareness hurts these people. If you can't see yourself as you are, then you have no way of knowing how to compensate for your flaws.
I really think the lack of self awareness hurts these people. If you can't see yourself as you are, then you have no way of knowing how to compensate for your flaws.
Some great thoughts being shared on this! The above comment caught my eye in particular, Imp – it’s so very true – the issue of dependency will never be resolved by the victim’s choices, it will of necessity have to be addressed by the ‘helper’.
I'd like to make what I think is an important distinction though. We 'helpers’ have a very difficult time believing we’re helping by turning our backs on one who is clearly suffering – even when that suffering is clearly at their own behest. It may only be the realization that we are damaging our own well being by remaining in the dysfunction that provides the impetus to let go.
We've all heard the term co-dependency... pity mongers can't get too far in meeting their need without a willing participant to provide the pity. It really does seem to be a 2-way street when one looks at it from a distance. I've heard it called emotional vampirism... but if we're truthful, both parties are getting something out of the arrangement. The helper remains enmeshed in the problem in their own frustrated attempt to feel they've actually 'helped' the victim.... of course this need to help is never going to be appeased either, so the cycle will continue until someone breaks it.
It's a fine line between compassion and pity. Compassion I believe is a healthy response to a fellow human being experiencing a tough situation.... professional victims will take the compassion that's freely offered, and take it, and take it….while continuously escalating the severity of the ‘trauma of the day’ . This is simply another spoke in the vicious cycle. With each crisis that occurs, the response from the helper is jaded somewhat. The shock value has worn off - so, much like an addict who must continuously increase the amount of drugs they ingest to get the same high, a victim will continuously ramp up the extremity of the crisis in order to meet that need.
So yes indeed - walking away becomes the only sensible and healthy thing to do... interestingly however, this will provide the victim with ample fodder around issues of abandonment to seek pity from others…. and be assured, there will always be others to step up and have their compassion mangled into pity.
I truly wish strength to any who find themselves needing to walk away - it's not easy, and the victim doesn't usually just 'let go'... a great deal of gnashing of teeth, wailing and copious amounts of emotional blackmail are likely to follow - this is what makes it so hard for a compassionate person to actually complete the cutting of ties –threats of suicide are also not only possible, but likely in extreme cases. To anyone still struggling with making such a decision, take heart. It can be done. It just takes strength and a determination to remember who you are when the unending spate of ugly new labels are slapped all over you and your reputation - but I unequivocally assert - it's worth it – and labels from people who are serving an unhealthy personal agenda do not define you.
Even more important however, is to not allow such an experience to completely cripple one's capacity for compassion - there is always a place for that - it's just a matter of discernment.
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The hardest thing to know is when we are helping and when we are enabling. 'Professional victims' are perpetually needy people. It's amazing how selfish we become when we respect our own boundaries - or how unfriendly we are when we say no or disagree. Once you fall into that trap of being the yes person, any premise of friendship has gone out the window - at least until somebody has grown up.
Woof!
Woof!
lol... I realized reading through and thinking this through that perhaps I get caught in my own victim cycle by being the 'helper victim'. "I have it so rough because I have to fix all my friends. They suck the life out of me. They're why I'm tired and frustrated. Can't they see their OWN problems?"
Thanx for participating. WOW, some very excellent posts have been made here.
It occurred to me as I was reading them, that if one were to examine many posts, from the bulk of a forum, where you have a steady stream of regulars. You will find something akin to 'professional victims', in all.
Not that they/we are looking for sympathy, I believe it to be empathy. Because we have become friends of sorts, we begin to share more and more of ourselves and we begin to go from sterile link wars, to applying personal experiences.
I believe though, it is in the more private arenas and in the amount of pity me's, one puts forth. That we can begin to see patterns.
I read a personal post by Gh, at another site, that made me think exactly this. "No wonder the man see some peoples woes as trivial, he seen egregious suffering first hand, his own child."
It wasn't pity he sot though, it was an assertion based on personal experience. He was looking for sympathy, pity, empathy or even comfort. He was merely sharing.
That said, we as the outsiders need take caution, not to apply this sort of label, carelessly.
It occurred to me as I was reading them, that if one were to examine many posts, from the bulk of a forum, where you have a steady stream of regulars. You will find something akin to 'professional victims', in all.
Not that they/we are looking for sympathy, I believe it to be empathy. Because we have become friends of sorts, we begin to share more and more of ourselves and we begin to go from sterile link wars, to applying personal experiences.
I believe though, it is in the more private arenas and in the amount of pity me's, one puts forth. That we can begin to see patterns.
I read a personal post by Gh, at another site, that made me think exactly this. "No wonder the man see some peoples woes as trivial, he seen egregious suffering first hand, his own child."
It wasn't pity he sot though, it was an assertion based on personal experience. He was looking for sympathy, pity, empathy or even comfort. He was merely sharing.
That said, we as the outsiders need take caution, not to apply this sort of label, carelessly.
Amen to that Bear. I tend to be hesitant about labels because often people assume, if you say someone suffers from the victim ideology, that you mean they are vampires, never giving, only taking. Our personal assumptions from hearing a tiny bit about a person, can be very damaging and limit not only our own lives, but the lives of those we've jumped to conclusions about.
This is really what got me. I've often heard that nurses are prone to this behavior anyways (cause why would you choose a career like that unless it's because you want to help people?) so we tend to get sucked into different kinds of codependent relationships. Not wanting to give her fodder for her abandonment issues was the main reason I didn't kick her out after a huge fight we had a few months ago. I made her cry, but I let her stay. It was probably a stupid decision looking back. I obviously lacked that discernment you mentionned. I'm just hoping I would do things differently the next time... but I know that may not be the case.:-|
Yes. They are on a downward spiral, self propelled. It's up to the 'helper' to know their limits and how far they can handle taking it before it becomes too much for them.
Just as raising a child, you help them become strong on their own, independent, self confidence.
Until they want to and start helping them self along, they are a weight to their helper.
http://tkdtutor.com/07Defense/Victims.htm
:angry3:
Professional victims need professional help. Even that won't work most times, as it requires a change in their expectations, rationalizations, and outlook on life. Easier to be a victim.
One thing is for sure, though; they tend to "suck the joy out of Christmas" and the life out of anyone wanting to help.
We probably have known a few of em, who, when their life situation changed, which might have precipitated a positive direction in their life, got themselves instead, right back into a situation where they could become victims again.
Go figure.
Call 1 800 JUNG...........:roll:
Professional victims need professional help. Even that won't work most times, as it requires a change in their expectations, rationalizations, and outlook on life. Easier to be a victim.
One thing is for sure, though; they tend to "suck the joy out of Christmas" and the life out of anyone wanting to help.
We probably have known a few of em, who, when their life situation changed, which might have precipitated a positive direction in their life, got themselves instead, right back into a situation where they could become victims again.
Go figure.
Call 1 800 JUNG...........:roll: