I love astrologers

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
I heart Astrologers
By MIKE BROWN
Professor of Planetary Astronomy
Caltech University



Please don’t tell any of my fellow astronomers, but I love astrologers. Really I do.


Don’t get me wrong. I have absolutely no belief whatsoever in the proposition that the positions of planets or stars or moons or anything else that is moving across the sky has or ever has had any sort of control over your life, your actions, or your choices. Zero. Really.


So if I don’t believe in what I must assume would have to be considered a central precept of astrology, how can I possibly claim to love the practitioners? Let me count the ways.


Astrologers care about the sky and the positions of the stars and the moon. I care about the sky and the positions of the stars and the moon. Astrologers try to understand patterns in the orbits and motions of the planets and determine their meaning. I try to understand patterns in the orbits and motions of the planets and determine their meaning. In a broad sense, we do many of the same things; it’s just that our methods are different.


Astrology and astronomy are brothers with roots deeper than just the first five letters. Until perhaps the Enlightenment they were inseparable. Copernicus, who made one of the greatest conceptual leaps in human history, pulling the earth out of the center of the universe and replacing it with the sun, was a dedicated astrologer, calculating astrological charts with as much fervor as trying to understand the paths of the planets. It’s not hard to understand why he would feel that some connection should be there. I don’ t think anyone can watch the rhythms and pulses of the movements of the planets and sun and moon and not somehow get a gut feeling that there is somehow meaning in all of that beauty, precision, and symmetry.


But from their common upbringing, the brothers split in adulthood. They each retained their common interest in the sky, but with thoroughly different ways of looking at it. Astronomy moved to the purely objective realm of descriptive and predictive reality. It moved to science. And a wondrous science it is. I can go outside tonight and look up to see the bright glowing star Betelgeuse, the red orb in the upper corner of constellation Orion, and then I can tell you a pretty good version of the entire story of its birth in a cloud a gas and dust, its long existence as a smaller and cooler star with hydrogen atoms fusing together in the deep interior, and its recent expansion to form ball of gas the size of the orbit of Mars. That we have been able to determine this story at all, simply from looking at the feeble light from these little points in the sky, is as improbable as it is incredible. When I see Betelgeuse at night and stop to think these thoughts I am left in awe.


So what can astrology offer that can even come close to matching? It can’t tell me anything, I don’t think, about my history or my future or my personality or my pitfalls. Or about anyone else’s. Isn’t it therefore worthless, or even potentially dangerous? I don’t think so. Astrology is the brother who kept the fascination with the sky but rather than growing an interest in science kept its interest in humanity. Scientific astronomy, for all of its awe-inspiring, mind expanding, and just simply amazing discoveries, leaves people and their consciousness out of the picture. Astronomy involves people looking up at the heavens, but the heavens are never looking back. Astrology, in contrast, never removed that connection between the sky and the people.


But but but, you protest, there is no connection between the sky and the people. The heavens do not, in fact, look back. And, while you are scientifically correct, you are culturally incorrect. You are thinking literally, but you need to think literarily. Good astrology can be like good literature. Good literature builds a world that is not the real world but teaches us more about ourselves than we would ever learn by simply staring in the mirror. No real King Lear ever had a trio of daughters to split his kingdom amongst nor wandered insane on the heath, but do we disdain Shakespeare for writing about it? No, we read, and we think about children and parents, we think about truth and loyalty, and scheming, and we learn more about ourselves and our world. We’re left enriched by stories that are not true.


Again, I have to plead: don’t get me wrong. I’m certainly not saying that all astrology is equivalent to Shakespeare, but neither is all of the rest of the fiction writing out there. The in-flight magazine that I currently have in front of me has both a short story and an astrology page. I would rate them equal quality examples of their genres.


Here’s a snippet of my in-flight horoscope (I’m a Gemini, perhaps explaining my ability to accept the dual nature of astronomy/astrology) for the month of January:

As your attention is consumed by an array of projects, you may spread yourself too thin. Remember to stop and take a breath, if for no other reason than to garner some perspective.

OK. I don’t need an astrologer to tell me that, but it’s hard not to read it and, why, yes, stop and take a breath and garner a little perspective. It’s not such a bad idea.


A quick perusal of the short story, a few pages earlier, gives a remarkably similar take home message, spread out, instead, over about three pages. After reading both of these I am now convinced: I think I will stop and garner some perspective, at least if I can finish a few of these other projects first.


So where are the Shakespeares of astrology? I will admit to not knowing if they exist at all. My astrological reading is only passive; occasionally someone will send me something and in a spare moment I will pick it up and I just might find it a bit intriguing. Here, for example, are some thoughts about Eris by Henry Seltzer, writing in The Mountain Astrologer:

The astrology of Eris seems to be related to the no-holds-barred fight for continued existence that is fundamental in all natural processes, and to taking a stand for what one believes, even if violence is involved. As the sister of Mars, the God of War, Eris willingly sought the battle. There is a side of nature that is quite harsh, a struggle for survival; this struggle is an essential part of the human condition as well, for we are still half animal. Nature can be viewed in a rosy light, as it was in the hippie era of the Sixties, Bambi innocently drinking from a little stream. But underlying this beauty is the possibility of sudden death at any moment, since all of nature's children need to eat. Eris is related to this principle of violence as a natural component of existence and to the concept of the female warrior that embodies it, especially the feminist struggle for rights in a patriarchal society.

As a general discussion of the national psyche circa late 2007 this passage is not at all bad. It covers the war in Iraq, global warming, and the Hilary Clinton candidacy all in the discussion of one name. It certainly does not require literal belief that the naming of an object in the sky is the actual cause of any of the things discussed.


But what is the point of astrology if you chose to read it figuratively rather than literally? Again, you could ask the same question of King Lear. You could ask the same question of the Bible. And you wouldn’t. To ask it is to miss the point entirely.


Here’s a question you should ask though: why tolerate the existence of astrology, with the danger that people might actually take it literally, with the danger that it might confuse and distort science, with the fear that real cause and effect will become confused, when real literature abounds? Why read pithy but relatively generic snippets of advice and pretend they are somehow connected to a particular constellation along the zodiac? Why read more extended essays purporting to be an in-depth analysis of how a recently discovered ball of rock and ice far from the earth affects all of humanity? The answer? There is no reason. I personally prefer my literature to be of higher quality, to make me think and feel more. Feel free to follow my lead. But if you do chose to read it, read it for the reason that I can’t help but love it. Astrology is not just figurative literature about humanity. Astrology cares about the sky. The astrologers who occasionally correspond with me love to hear about new solar system discoveries, figure out orbital relationships and patterns, and speculate about what else might be out there and how everything fits together. I do all of these things, too. I then take these thoughts and move on to think literally their scientific implications. The astrologers take these thoughts and move on to think figuratively about what these mean for humans. But we, astronomers and astrologers, start in the same spot, with an intense interest in the sky. To me, that matters.


Astronomy and astrology are brothers. Brothers don’t always do the same things or make the same choices. But when they maintain their initial ties to where they came from, their connection cannot help but stay strong. What is not to love?
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
S_lone posted a great article. Absolutely expresses my attitude about astrology.

As you can guess, this also closely ressembles my approach to astrology, with the difference that I decided to directly experience it and try it out for myself. In the same way anybody can be an amateur astronomer and know much about the sky and outer space, anybody can be their own astrologer, given a minimum of interest and willingness to accept that the Universe might actually be listening to us...

Perhaps it isn't...

But who are we to know? Who are we to suppose we are intelligent and conscious, while the Universe isn't?
 

AmberEyes

Sunshine
Dec 19, 2006
495
36
28
Vancouver Island
I can certainly appreciate the connection between our history with the sky and the science that is astronomy. I'm doing a double major in physics and astronomy atm, and my fascination with the sky started with a very new-agey perspective. I grew up in a household that worshipped the moon goddess, with a wonderful mother that loved astrology. I've outgrown the belief, but my love of the sky has always remained. I don't think enough scientists in general appreciate the history of which their passions are built upon.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
I don't think enough scientists in general appreciate the history of which their passions are built upon.
The best ones do; maybe you just don't know enough scientists.

Oh, and astrology is complete, total, and utter BS that has nothing to do with reality. .
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
I've been drawn to astronomy since I can remember. When my son was seven or eight years old, I bought him a 50mm Tasco refractor telescope. Luckily, the optics were pretty good on that telescope. On a good night we could see the rings of Saturn, the main moons of Jupiter, the polar cap on Mars. We've since moved to bigger and better telescopes over the years but It's good to remember those cold winter nights with that little scope set up on a picnic table, freezing our buns off while getting excited about some new "find"

Astrology remains a mystery and the closest I get to it is absently glancing at my horoscope occasionally.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
The best ones do; maybe you just don't know enough scientists.

Oh, and astrology is complete, total, and utter BS that has nothing to do with reality. .

We've been down this road already Dexter Sinister, but let me ask you this question.

Do you think celestial reality is totally and absolutely dislocated from our human reality?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
We've been down this road already Dexter Sinister, but let me ask you this question.

Do you think celestial reality is totally and absolutely dislocated from our human reality?
Yes, we've been down that road, and it seemed pretty clear to me--and I thought to you too--that your astrological analyses didn't have anything to do with the reality of my life. But the answer to your question is no, with the qualification that astrology has nothing to do with celestial reality. The answer is no simply because, according to the best theories we have about such things, every atom in your body that isn't hydrogen or helium, and possibly some of the lithium, was cooked up in the core of a star that blew up and scattered its elements into space, to be later incorporated into other stellar systems. We are all intimately connected to celestial reality; we're made of star stuff.

But astrology is nonsense.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
Yes, we've been down that road, and it seemed pretty clear to me--and I thought to you too--that your astrological analyses didn't have anything to do with the reality of my life.

Yes. It's clear to me that I didn't demonstrate any ability to 'read' into your life by looking at celestial patterns. I'm not a psychic and never pretended to be. I don't think I've ever affirmed that you can read into someone's life by simply looking at his or her natal chart. I'm rather rooting for the idea that there are perhaps some meaningful patterns to be found if we are willing to do an honest and elaborate research. This research is one of infinite scope as much as astronomy is probably of infinite scope. Astrology as I understand it is about the idea that this universe we are part of is ultimately filled with coherence and meaning.

It was a post hoc analysis, but once you told me you had went through the process of seperation and divorce around 1977-1978, I did easily find a configuration that fitted to the dot the idea of a man's divorce.You might recall it was about Uranus transiting your natal Venus-Pluto square (90 degrees aspect). I documented it in a reasonably precise way in the thread in question. Your Venus-Pluto square is pretty much the most precise aspect of your chart and accordingly, it should theoretically be (according to the principles of astrology) an aspect which is reliably demonstrative of astrolgy's validity. What would be really instructive would be to make a deep and complete analysis of your life so far, what you went through psycholgically and physically, and put your life's structural timeframe into a planetary timeframe to see if there are meaningful patterns... cycles...

But do you realize the complexity of this? To find deep patterns amidst the complexity of the cosmos and Dexter Sinister' spirit...
You can't know that astrology is bull**** because astrology, as far I know, is unfalsifiable.

BUT...

You'd certainly be right in saying that MOST astrology is bull****.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
It was a post hoc analysis...
Yes it was, and that immediately invalidates it. It amounts to predicting things after they've happened. Anyone can do that, that's not worth squat.

But do you realize the complexity of this?
Yes I do.

You can't know that astrology is bull**** because astrology, as far I know, is unfalsifiable
No, as soon as it makes any specific claim, it is eminently falsifiable, in fact has been repeatedly falsified under such conditions, and your attempt to analyze my natal chart makes the point. The analysis got exactly nothing right, not even close. And if it can't make specific claims, what's it good for? Anybody can invent vague generalizations that most people would accept as true, but you don't need astrology to do that. Besides, if something is unfalsifiable, the evidence in favour of it or against it is irrelevant, it's immune to any kind of evidence. It is, in the words of an old professor of mine, propositionally vacuous, which is just a fancy way of saying it's BS.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
Yes it was (a post hoc analysis), and that immediately invalidates it. It amounts to predicting things after they've happened. Anyone can do that, that's not worth squat.

Of course it was a post hoc analysis. And no, it didn't amount at all to ''predicting things after they've happened''. You had freely told me when your divorce had happened and all I did was to analyse the astrology of that period of your life. Yup, It's totally post hoc, but here's an honest and important question for you...

Don't we need to do post hoc analyses in order to establish solid and verifiable theories? Any theory, be it scientific, philosophical or social, starts with observation, right? We observe phenomenon and we wonder what causes them, what explains them. So we make experiments, we search for recurring patterns, we try to find correlations between events. Sometimes, we find some pattern but ultimately realize the pattern had no grounding in reality (what you would say about astrology). The realization usually happens when we see that the so-called patterns fails to repeat. But sometimes, we DO find an authentic pattern that is grounded in reality. We aknowledge the validity of the pattern when we succesfully predict the outcome of an event. The patterns we found helped us establish a theory, which ought to succesfully predict the reccurence of the observed patterns.

My point is... It seems to me that post hoc analyses are inevitable because they are always the starting point of research. We look for patterns... We search... we find some... and THEN we test their validity. I might be totally wrong. And I'll glady be corrected by you if this is the case. You obviously know a lot more than me on the principles and philosophy of the scientific method.

I certainly understand why you wouldn't be convinced by the single 'Dexter's divorce' example. If I was in your seat, I wouldn't be convinced at all. You would need a whole series of such examples to even consider starting to seriously investigate the subject.
 
Last edited:

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
Well, actually you've correctly answered your own question there, s_lone. Post hoc analysis can establish that a new theory is consistent with things we already understand from older theories, which of course it must be if it's to have any value, but that won't validate it. To be useful, the new one has to have something new in it that the old one doesn't predict or explain, or gets wrong. Quantum theory's equations, for example, are entirely consistent with the classical equations of electromagnetism, and in fact readily reduce to them, if Planck's Constant is zero. Planck's Constant in absolute terms is a very small number, on the order of 10^-35, but it's not zero, and on the scale of the masses and distances involved at the sub-atomic scale, it's a pretty big number. Similarly, the equations of General Relativity readily reduce to Newton's equations if certain terms can be considered to be vanishingly small, which on the scale of things humans can directly perceive is certainly true. And that's the point. Both quantum theory and relativity are entirely consistent with previous theories, subject to certain limits, and within those limits will correctly describe and predict the same things. Engineers still use Maxwell's classical equations for the electromagnetic field to design and build electrical and electronic devices, astronomers still use Newton's equations to calculate orbits, NASA uses them to control its probes within the solar system.... They're not "true" in any absolute sense, science would not make such a claim anyway, and neither are quantum theory and relativity (actually they're fundamentally inconsistent), but they're all close enough to whatever the truth actually is to be useful under certain circumstances.

That's all science can give us, utility and probability, not absolute truth. You want absolute truth, science can't help you. Only religion claims absolute truth. Falsely, in my view, and in fact I've never encountered a religious claim that isn't readily falsifiable except for the absolutely untestable and unfalsifiable claim at the heart of it, that there's at least one supernatural being who's interested in us. And because it isn't testable or falsifiable, the evidence in its favour and the evidence against it are irrelevant, it's immune to any kind of evidence, and to me that makes it vacuous and meaningless. An idea that can't be tested for validity isn't worth squat. It's often fun to speculate about what might or might not be true, but without evidence it's really just metaphysical BS and mystic nonsense.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
30
48
42
Montreal
That's all science can give us, utility and probability, not absolute truth. You want absolute truth, science can't help you. Only religion claims absolute truth. Falsely, in my view, and in fact I've never encountered a religious claim that isn't readily falsifiable except for the absolutely untestable and unfalsifiable claim at the heart of it, that there's at least one supernatural being who's interested in us. And because it isn't testable or falsifiable, the evidence in its favour and the evidence against it are irrelevant, it's immune to any kind of evidence, and to me that makes it vacuous and meaningless. An idea that can't be tested for validity isn't worth squat. It's often fun to speculate about what might or might not be true, but without evidence it's really just metaphysical BS and mystic nonsense.

I most certainly agree with you that science has a healthier attitude towards 'truth' than dogmatized religion does. I believe science must go as far as it can go in its quest, and as long as it remains rooted in a spirit of humanism, it will do a lot more good than wrong...

That being said, with the exchanges we've had, you know I'm very much inclined to mystical and metaphysical speculation. In my view, science has an essential role and as much as it never ceases to amaze me with its progress, it simply does not satisfy my thirst for a deeper understanding of life. This is where the metaphysical and mystical stuff comes into play because that speculation at least partly satisfies a part of me I can't deny. You can call it my heart, my soul, my mind, or my brain if you want... but there is some part of me that needs to ask questions that go beyond what science can do (at least for now...) This part of me is something most of us have but we all express it differently.

Because of the way I tend to think and view the world, I can hardly accept your view that without evidence, speculation about what might or might not be true becomes metaphysical BS or mystic nonsense. But I won't take offense in it, because I know you're not attacking me personally but rather affirming your own way of thinking about and processing this strange and beautiful (and sometimes ugly) world we live in.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
68
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Dexter Sinister, I love reading your thorough thinking and debunking attitude.

But...

Can I infer that new ideas and new ways of thinking come only from the Scientific Method ? Or is the Scientific Method only useful for vetting or debunking ?

When we get an inkling that something may be true without the research, what is happening ? How can we think something without the sequential logic or testing of it ?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
Dexter Sinister, I love reading your thorough thinking and debunking attitude.
Well, thank you. With me you know, flattery will get you everywhere... :cool:
Can I infer that new ideas and new ways of thinking come only from the Scientific Method ? Or is the Scientific Method only useful for vetting or debunking ?
No, I wouldn't say that. Actually I don't think the method itself generates ideas at all, it just provides a means of testing them against reality after you've had them. Not all ideas are amenable to the method either, which is just another way of saying science isn't the only way of knowing things. It's certainly a good way to know things, and it's been spectacularly successful in the last few centuries, but life would be pretty bleak and sterile if it were the only way. Look at this spectacular picture, for instance, an extraordinary product of science, but anyone who isn't moved by something deeper looking at it must be at least half dead from the neck up. Science provides the image, and some degree of understanding of it, but any thoughtful person will also perceive a great mystery here.
When we get an inkling that something may be true without the research, what is happening ? How can we think something without the sequential logic or testing of it ?
Boy, that's the hard question of the week. I wish I had a good answer. The real burden of that question, as I read it, is, "where do ideas come from?" I have no..uh.. idea. ;-)
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
99
48
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
I heart Astrologers
By MIKE BROWN
Professor of Planetary Astronomy
Caltech University

Please don’t tell any of my fellow astronomers, but I love astrologers. Really I do.

Don’t get me wrong. I have absolutely no belief whatsoever in the proposition that the positions of planets or stars or moons or anything else that is moving across the sky has or ever has had any sort of control over your life, your actions, or your choices. Zero. Really.

Really? No connection of affect on your everyday life at all? 70% or so of our bodies are made up of water, yet the moon affects tidal currents and levels around the world. Many believe the moon alone has some slight effect, no matter how remote, on our bodies and minds. To think that certain alignments of stars, planets, gravitational effects, etc don't have an effect on us.... seems a bit limited.

Personally I feel there is a bit of a connection to our everyday lives, but I don't think many of us are at any level of understanding to properly interperate all the various factors to hold any accuracy. Nor do I believe the effects would be anything of great importance. But the connection is there.

So if I don’t believe in what I must assume would have to be considered a central precept of astrology, how can I possibly claim to love the practitioners? Let me count the ways.

Astrologers care about the sky and the positions of the stars and the moon. I care about the sky and the positions of the stars and the moon. Astrologers try to understand patterns in the orbits and motions of the planets and determine their meaning. I try to understand patterns in the orbits and motions of the planets and determine their meaning. In a broad sense, we do many of the same things; it’s just that our methods are different.

Astrology and astronomy are brothers with roots deeper than just the first five letters. Until perhaps the Enlightenment they were inseparable. Copernicus, who made one of the greatest conceptual leaps in human history, pulling the earth out of the center of the universe and replacing it with the sun, was a dedicated astrologer, calculating astrological charts with as much fervor as trying to understand the paths of the planets. It’s not hard to understand why he would feel that some connection should be there. I don’ t think anyone can watch the rhythms and pulses of the movements of the planets and sun and moon and not somehow get a gut feeling that there is somehow meaning in all of that beauty, precision, and symmetry.

Just as much as there is reason and effect for us breathing, heart beating, blood flowing and eyes blinking. It all works for basic function of something more complex then its seperate parts. It's not just our sun, not just our Earth, moons or any of the other planets, but the collective of everything within our solar system makes it what it is. Our solar system's existence has an effect on other nearby solar systems, and vice versa..... like one person rubbing shouders against another in a crowded room.

What's my point? I like stories.... perhaps I'll explain further down.

But from their common upbringing, the brothers split in adulthood. They each retained their common interest in the sky, but with thoroughly different ways of looking at it. Astronomy moved to the purely objective realm of descriptive and predictive reality. It moved to science. And a wondrous science it is. I can go outside tonight and look up to see the bright glowing star Betelgeuse, the red orb in the upper corner of constellation Orion, and then I can tell you a pretty good version of the entire story of its birth in a cloud a gas and dust, its long existence as a smaller and cooler star with hydrogen atoms fusing together in the deep interior, and its recent expansion to form ball of gas the size of the orbit of Mars. That we have been able to determine this story at all, simply from looking at the feeble light from these little points in the sky, is as improbable as it is incredible. When I see Betelgeuse at night and stop to think these thoughts I am left in awe.

The fact that most of what we see in the sky at night is thousands or millions of years old as it takes that long to reach us, is what I find interesting. At this very moment, what we are looking at, doesn't actually look like how it does now in current time and happened in the past.

But what you described above also reminds me of how many various religions and science have split apart over time due to major conflicts in understanding and approach. Neither are right or wrong to some degree, because some aspects at our stage of understanding and technology can not be fully explained one way or another, hence why the division remains over so many decades / centuries.

So what can astrology offer that can even come close to matching? It can’t tell me anything, I don’t think, about my history or my future or my personality or my pitfalls. Or about anyone else’s. Isn’t it therefore worthless, or even potentially dangerous?

To think outside of a constrained box of set understanding? Not always.

From my understanding, most of it is based around when you were born, when the stars were positioned at the time, and common trends found in certain personalities or actions which occur on certain times and spaceial positionings. I don't follow it completely by any means, but I am not about to outright dismiss something without some valid reason which contradicts it's logic. And since there is plenty which contradicts almost any human made concept of understanding, I don't dismiss much..... but I don't wrap my life around once concept either.

I don’t think so. Astrology is the brother who kept the fascination with the sky but rather than growing an interest in science kept its interest in humanity. Scientific astronomy, for all of its awe-inspiring, mind expanding, and just simply amazing discoveries, leaves people and their consciousness out of the picture. Astronomy involves people looking up at the heavens, but the heavens are never looking back. Astrology, in contrast, never removed that connection between the sky and the people.

Perhaps it is not looking back in the manner in which you understand it to be looking back? To a degree, remote or greatly evident, everything is connected in some manner or another, even to the atom by atom study. The moon gives a low tide, it makes the outside stink, you therefore decide to stay inside until high tide arrives..... connection.... possibly something predictable if I knew of your personality enough to make a determination whether or not you'd stay inside, go somewhere else, or put up with the stink. Could it be determined 100%? perhaps not, but if I narrowed it all down, I could come up with a decent prediction with a possible high accuracy of it coming true.

Although there does seem to be a lack of science to it all, there is still science included into the understanding and predictions.... perhaps less then what you believe in, but once again, both are working for different reasons and solutions.

But but but, you protest, there is no connection between the sky and the people. The heavens do not, in fact, look back. And, while you are scientifically correct, you are culturally incorrect. You are thinking literally, but you need to think literarily. Good astrology can be like good literature. Good literature builds a world that is not the real world but teaches us more about ourselves than we would ever learn by simply staring in the mirror. No real King Lear ever had a trio of daughters to split his kingdom amongst nor wandered insane on the heath, but do we disdain Shakespeare for writing about it? No, we read, and we think about children and parents, we think about truth and loyalty, and scheming, and we learn more about ourselves and our world. We’re left enriched by stories that are not true.

True. I could read up in the newspaper that based on my birthday, I may have some great fortune come my way if I avoid being negative to the wrong person, or however they explain it. But see, do I want great fortune today or do I just want a normal day to relax and get rest for the following day?

What if I want to avoid the prediction? Then the whole concept is thrown out the window and failed.... or did it?

Again, I have to plead: don’t get me wrong. I’m certainly not saying that all astrology is equivalent to Shakespeare, but neither is all of the rest of the fiction writing out there. The in-flight magazine that I currently have in front of me has both a short story and an astrology page. I would rate them equal quality examples of their genres.

So what do you say to those people who followed the predictions of their day and they actually came true? I know of a few people who have expressed moments in their lives where they did. There's some interesting coinicidences going on in those cases.

What do you say to those people who actually follow them like a religion and base their lives around those predictions, and for the most part they come true to some degree? It happens.

Here’s a snippet of my in-flight horoscope (I’m a Gemini, perhaps explaining my ability to accept the dual nature of astronomy/astrology) for the month of January:

As your attention is consumed by an array of projects, you may spread yourself too thin. Remember to stop and take a breath, if for no other reason than to garner some perspective.

OK. I don’t need an astrologer to tell me that, but it’s hard not to read it and, why, yes, stop and take a breath and garner a little perspective. It’s not such a bad idea.

I'm an Aries, which has the characteristics of:

Aries are brave, bold, fearless, exciting, energetic, fair, active, warlike, dynamic, fast, quick, competitive, impulsive, adventurous, intelligent, creative, friendly, self-sacrificing, protective, optimistic, problem solver, non-judgemental, strong, funny, romantic, and a great leader.

but also aggressive, violent, unpredictable, rude, short-tempered, angry, daring, primitive, impulsive, foolish, insulting, insensitive, reckless, rash, self-centered and will cheat, lie, or steal to win.

An awful lot of pretty much everything in there to not be wrong, geez... Most of those negatives are things I know I fought within myself over my younger years to quell. Most of the negatives pretty much no longer exist, or are rare to occur.

But this was interesting:

.....In mythology Aries is often associated with the Greek myth of the ram which carried Athamas's son Phrixus and daughter Helle to Colchis to escape their stepmother Ino....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aries_(astrology)

Phrixus?

Praxius?

Hmmmm..... For a name I just whipped out of my head over a decade ago, it sure does seem to be relating to a few things in my life I never knew or paid attention to.

A quick perusal of the short story, a few pages earlier, gives a remarkably similar take home message, spread out, instead, over about three pages. After reading both of these I am now convinced: I think I will stop and garner some perspective, at least if I can finish a few of these other projects first.

So where are the Shakespeares of astrology? I will admit to not knowing if they exist at all. My astrological reading is only passive; occasionally someone will send me something and in a spare moment I will pick it up and I just might find it a bit intriguing. Here, for example, are some thoughts about Eris by Henry Seltzer, writing in The Mountain Astrologer:

The astrology of Eris seems to be related to the no-holds-barred fight for continued existence that is fundamental in all natural processes, and to taking a stand for what one believes, even if violence is involved. As the sister of Mars, the God of War, Eris willingly sought the battle. There is a side of nature that is quite harsh, a struggle for survival; this struggle is an essential part of the human condition as well, for we are still half animal.

Funny, I always considdered us as still all Animal....

Nature can be viewed in a rosy light, as it was in the hippie era of the Sixties, Bambi innocently drinking from a little stream. But underlying this beauty is the possibility of sudden death at any moment, since all of nature's children need to eat. Eris is related to this principle of violence as a natural component of existence and to the concept of the female warrior that embodies it, especially the feminist struggle for rights in a patriarchal society.

As a general discussion of the national psyche circa late 2007 this passage is not at all bad. It covers the war in Iraq, global warming, and the Hilary Clinton candidacy all in the discussion of one name. It certainly does not require literal belief that the naming of an object in the sky is the actual cause of any of the things discussed.


But what is the point of astrology if you chose to read it figuratively rather than literally? Again, you could ask the same question of King Lear. You could ask the same question of the Bible. And you wouldn’t. To ask it is to miss the point entirely.

Indeed... sometimes a scientific approach alone can not answer what is required for an answer we can not reach by those means. Perhaps in time, but until then, what science can not explain yet, we use other methods to reach a logical answer until science can come to a valid and explainable solution.

Here’s a question you should ask though: why tolerate the existence of astrology, with the danger that people might actually take it literally, with the danger that it might confuse and distort science, with the fear that real cause and effect will become confused, when real literature abounds? Why read pithy but relatively generic snippets of advice and pretend they are somehow connected to a particular constellation along the zodiac?

Well why follow everything science tells us without question? Science has been wrong in the past about a few things here and there, mainly due to technological limitations and our own understanding at the time. But many of these situations have caused evolution in the understanding of the science at the hands of humans and animals suffering from previous ignorance.

An example of this would be hydronated oils in our foods. Before we were told that they were safer then saturated fats. Now we're told they increase our risks of certain health problems and now even some governments are attempting the forced removal of hydronated oils from products being sold.

How many people around the world are now suffering medical complications based on following what science once explained to be "Safe?"

No concept of method of understanding is 100% safe, and there are always risks involved. No matter what explinations or answers you hear in the world from whatever, you yourself still have to use your common sense to understand if it's the answer for you.

Why read more extended essays purporting to be an in-depth analysis of how a recently discovered ball of rock and ice far from the earth affects all of humanity? The answer? There is no reason. I personally prefer my literature to be of higher quality, to make me think and feel more. Feel free to follow my lead. But if you do chose to read it, read it for the reason that I can’t help but love it. Astrology is not just figurative literature about humanity. Astrology cares about the sky. The astrologers who occasionally correspond with me love to hear about new solar system discoveries, figure out orbital relationships and patterns, and speculate about what else might be out there and how everything fits together. I do all of these things, too. I then take these thoughts and move on to think literally their scientific implications. The astrologers take these thoughts and move on to think figuratively about what these mean for humans. But we, astronomers and astrologers, start in the same spot, with an intense interest in the sky. To me, that matters.

Astronomy and astrology are brothers. Brothers don’t always do the same things or make the same choices. But when they maintain their initial ties to where they came from, their connection cannot help but stay strong. What is not to love?


*shrugs* it's the same for me and all religions and sciences.... none are completely full of themselves, yet none of them hold all the answers we all seek. Each method of understanding holds a level of truth, yet their buildup over the centuries and what others have added around their original foundations have clouded many beliefs and the truths they hold. It's the conflicts of the things surrounding the truths in each, which cause each to stay apart and remained schismed. If you took the truths from each method of understanding around the planet, remove all the additional moral junk which built around these truths, throw them all together so that each truth overlaps one another to the point where each religion and science supports one another..... then you get the real answer to existence, why we are here, and where are we going.

Now there's a head scratcher.

But that's also jmo. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your first post and comments, I'm just adding a few questions to make you think.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
99
48
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
But...

Can I infer that new ideas and new ways of thinking come only from the Scientific Method ? Or is the Scientific Method only useful for vetting or debunking ?

I'd have to disagree with that as well. Even before science was called science, people still tested things to see if they were true.... like burning witches :angryfire:

Perhaps science existed before science was invented? Thinking of something and then putting it to action or reality to prove isn't just a scientific concept, science just kinda hi-jacked it to be it's main focus, and try and potray itself to be the only thinking process which does so.

Any new ideas or ways of thinking, I could say may have a good chance of having scientific approaches involved, but I wouldn't absolutely say all of them will.

My approach isn't exactly scientific, yet nor is it religious.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
Don’t get me wrong. I have absolutely no belief whatsoever in the proposition that the positions of planets or stars or moons or anything else that is moving across the sky has or ever has had any sort of control over your life, your actions, or your choices. Zero. Really.

Everyone knows you set sail with the tide. The tide is affected by the Moon. Really. :p