Chimps and Intelligence


Twila
#1
This article may just mean that experiments involving chimp's should stop. Females are selling sex for fruit. Meaning they understand cause and effect and are able to negotiate. Surely signs of intelligents akin to our own...

www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/mai...achimp111.xml& (external - login to view)
 
hermanntrude
#2
I'm not sure if these chimps were exactly selling food for sex. It simply stated that the chimps who shared more food got more sex. That doesn't necessarily mean that one follows the other.

Having said that, I do feel that chimps and some other apes should have rights beyond what they currently have
 
Twila
#3
Well after re-reading the title I think the chimps are definatley more intelligent then me..intelligents...oh for pete's sake... I can't believe I spelled it that way...
 
Unforgiven
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

Well after re-reading the title I think the chimps are definatley more intelligent then me..intelligents...oh for pete's sake... I can't believe I spelled it that way...

Well you don't see chimps walking through parks picking up doo doo after the dog. For that matter they don't even need spell checkers.
 
hermanntrude
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

Well after re-reading the title I think the chimps are definatley more intelligent then me..intelligents...oh for pete's sake... I can't believe I spelled it that way...

hehe i noticed that too... made me chuckle
 
karrie
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

Well after re-reading the title I think the chimps are definatley more intelligent then me..intelligents...oh for pete's sake... I can't believe I spelled it that way...

Shhhh... if you don't tell anyone, I won't.
 
karrie
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

This article may just mean that experiments involving chimp's should stop. Females are selling sex for fruit. Meaning they understand cause and effect and are able to negotiate. Surely signs of intelligents akin to our own...


Actually, for many scientific purposes, the more they are like us, the more reason there is to perform medical research using them. How drugs interact brain activity is easier to determine when the brains are so similar.
 
#juan
#8
It seems to me that whenever I've watched Chimpanzees have sex, .....(in the interests of science, not voyeurism).....it seems such short-lived, casual event that it is difficult to see it as being marketable.......by either sex.......Maybe I'll have to pay more attention....
 
Twila
#9
Quote:

Well you don't see chimps walking through parks picking up doo doo after the dog.

no, but I've seen humans not do it either! lol...and to be realistic why would they want to?
 
karrie
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by #juanView Post

It seems to me that whenever I've watched Chimpanzees have sex, .....(in the interests of science, not voyeurism).....it seems such short-lived, casual event that it is difficult to see it as being marketable.......by either sex.......Maybe I'll have to pay more attention....

Perhaps they have an orgasm in that brief amount of time that would blow the top of your head off if you were to experience the same... who's to know for sure?
 
Twila
#11
Quote:

it seems such short-lived, casual event that it is difficult to see it as being marketable..

Only from the males perspective. From the females it's totally marketable. Less work and more fruit
 
#juan
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Perhaps they have an orgasm in that brief amount of time that would blow the top of your head off if you were to experience the same... who's to know for sure?

An orgasm that is more intense, and lasts for twenty minutes after the act would definitely be marketable..............Inscrutable little buggers aren't they...
 
Zzarchov
#13
They also have language, diffferent culture, make tools (including spears)..

they don't have fire, but even to this day, all groups of people do not understand fire. Some groups in Indian ocean islands never grasped fire.

Chimps are more intelligent and less like us genetically than people with down syndrome. The Swift in me says we should ease our burden on society and just test on people with down syndrome.

Its still A.Ok right?
 
Twila
#14
Quote:

Chimps are more intelligent and less like us genetically than people with down syndrome. The Swift in me says we should ease our burden on society and just test on people with down syndrome.

Its still A.Ok right?

Well that's just it. What makes it alright to do tests on animals? the fact that they can't give permission? Or is it that they don't speak our language? was it that they didn't use tools (we know now they do) or that they can't negotiate (we now know they do) or that they don't form groups and fight wars (they do)
 
eh1eh
#15
They are showing alot of inteligence here. So if we give them the rights are they subject to our moral standards too. Will there have to be a 'Monkey Vice Squad'?
 
karrie
#16
What it boils down to quite simply for me is that animals should be protected by standards. Animals are not equal to a human being. A human life holds more value, even it is for some trivial reason like genetics, inability to communicate, etc. So much of the headway modern medicine makes is due to animals, that I'm not willing to complain. I'm not willing to point a finger of blame at the scientists who use animals to find ways to save human lives.

What I AM willing to do, is demand standards in what kinds of research are entitled to these animals (ie, how imortant is it to us), how the animals should be treated, what sorts of procedures are performed, (are they overly cruel or entirely necessary?). Essentially, I'm willing to demand the sorts of standards that the vast majority of research institutions have already instituted for themselves.
 
eh1eh
#17
Indeed karrie. I would say though, anyone that does that kind of reasearch never had a dog or a cat in there lives.I can't say what animal is 'equal' to another. To experience the personality of another being that is not human and find that they actualy have a personality and a certain level of brain power, even though we do have more, does make one realise that intelegence does exist in other species. What value that life has is in the 'eye of the beholder' so to speak.
 
karrie
#18
Plenty of researchers perform experiments on animals in a compassionate manner (and a lot of 'research' doesn't require any kind of injury), and even become attached. To say that they mustn't have ever owned animals seems a bit of a judgement, not only on them and the value they place on animals, but also on the value of their research. If I thought a drug I had could cure cancer, I would probably perform tests on animals, despite the numerous animals I've owned and loved. I would be upset at any losses incurred, I would do everything in my power to make sure they didn't suffer overly while I sought my results... but I would do it.

Quote: Originally Posted by eh1ehView Post

Indeed karrie. I would say though, anyone that does that kind of reasearch never had a dog or a cat in there lives.I can't say what animal is 'equal' to another. To experience the personality of another being that is not human and find that they actualy have a personality and a certain level of brain power, even though we do have more, does make one realise that intelegence does exist in other species. What value that life has is in the 'eye of the beholder' so to speak.

 
eh1eh
#19
Because your life is more valuable than their's.
 
karrie
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by eh1ehView Post

Because your life is more valuable than their's.

Truthfully, no... not my life. The life of a mother dying of cancer. Of a child who can barely move because rheumatoid arthritis set in at 2. And it's not even THEIR lives that outweigh that of an animal. It's the interconnected lives of hundreds of people within society, those who suffer when that one person dies, that are important enough to take that risk. In my view. It's not a view that seeks to devalue animals... I think they're highly valuable, emotive creatures. When my dog follows me around, I can't help but feel that there is a soul wiser than me watching my moves. I don't feel she's worth more or less than me.
 
Twila
#21
(k, we've been over this before but) we have prison systems full of individuals who'd chosen to give up their rights to freedom. Why not offer them incentives to become "subjects". Can't get any more human then human.
 
karrie
#22
We do accept human volunteers for medical experimentation. I have friends who've volunteered for studies. But we try very hard to make sure that it's not possible to prey upon the downtrodden in doing so. Here it's illegal to pay participants for their involvement.

Prison is full of people who've given up their rights, true. But it also contains people who've had no choice but to end up there. People who've been wrongly accused. People who have killed because they felt there was no other way out of a situation (beaten women for example). To start preying on them wouldn't be a great idea. If we want to use that as a punishment fine... but to pile punishment on top of punishment doesn't make for a fair justice system.
 
Zzarchov
#23
To be fair, if it turns out Chimps are sentient..than that is less fair.

Sure we may have trouble believing they are "intelligent like us" just because they can talk and build tools.

But thats a terrible line of logic, people used that to justify slavery.
 
Unforgiven
#24
I'm with you there. While the choice between one life or the other is clear in my head, there should be strict rules of what is acceptable research and what is not. Nothing should suffer for cosmetics for example other than the one's who want to sell it and buy it. They can have their fill.

But to the point of animal testing of drugs and research into health matters it is a sacrifice that must be made. I use a drug for Asthma that without I probably would have died by now or at the very least I would not have the level of health I have now. But more important is the life of the children I see that are given back to them as a result of that research and testing.

We need to see that animals that are used in testing are cared for and given an acceptable level of care and make for them a life aside from the research that is in some way fulfilling to them. The obligation to make sure this is enforced resides with each and every one of us.

Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

What it boils down to quite simply for me is that animals should be protected by standards. Animals are not equal to a human being. A human life holds more value, even it is for some trivial reason like genetics, inability to communicate, etc. So much of the headway modern medicine makes is due to animals, that I'm not willing to complain. I'm not willing to point a finger of blame at the scientists who use animals to find ways to save human lives.

What I AM willing to do, is demand standards in what kinds of research are entitled to these animals (ie, how imortant is it to us), how the animals should be treated, what sorts of procedures are performed, (are they overly cruel or entirely necessary?). Essentially, I'm willing to demand the sorts of standards that the vast majority of research institutions have already instituted for themselves.

 
Twila
#25
Quote:

To start preying on them wouldn't be a great idea. If we want to use that as a punishment fine...

I never suggested preying on them. I suggested giving incentives. This could be...an extra hour in the yard for a "hole" inmate or other segrated inmate. A tv in their cell. A bigger TV in their cell even. More cents per hour at their job for canteen purchases...etc.
 
karrie
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

I never suggested preying on them. I suggested giving incentives. This could be...an extra hour in the yard for a "hole" inmate or other segrated inmate. A tv in their cell. A bigger TV in their cell even. More cents per hour at their job for canteen purchases...etc.

To my understanding most of Canada has taken the stance that people should not profit from selling their bodies for medical reasons (blood tests, experiments, clinical trials, organ donation), because it ends up being a form of fiscal Darwinism, with the poor risking their health in order to try to get a leg up. If society has decided that it is essentially exploitation to do it in our typical cultural setting, then in my opinion it would be doubly so to do it with inmates. The perks you mention are still essentially currency, and it's still exploitative.
 
Twila
#27
Quote:

The perks you mention are still essentially currency, and it's still exploitative

Well if society has the right to vote, no matter skin colour or gender yet prison inmates don't...then the laws can change for those particular individuals. Personal choice is not exploitation. They don't have to do this. It's not like they won't get food unless....The poor of society are a completely different matter. Mind you this is only in Canada.

In the US they pay for your time for certain experiments.
 
hermanntrude
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

Well that's just it. What makes it alright to do tests on animals? the fact that they can't give permission? Or is it that they don't speak our language? was it that they didn't use tools (we know now they do) or that they can't negotiate (we now know they do) or that they don't form groups and fight wars (they do)

The fact is, if it wasn't for the death of several thousand animals, I would have died horribly at the age of 8.

I'm all for animal testing.
 
Twila
#29
Quote:

The fact is, if it wasn't for the death of several thousand animals, I would have died horribly at the age of 8.

I'm all for animal testing.

Even if a viable option were found so animals didn't have to suffer. Would you still be all for animal testing?
 
karrie
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by TwilaView Post

Well if society has the right to vote, no matter skin colour or gender yet prison inmates don't...then the laws can change for those particular individuals. Personal choice is not exploitation. They don't have to do this. It's not like they won't get food unless....The poor of society are a completely different matter. Mind you this is only in Canada.

In the US they pay for your time for certain experiments.

Society has defined the rights a prisoner loses, and the sentence they are to receive. They are the terms of their punishment. We can't just go heaping more on once they're incarcerated. We've decided what is a fair punishment already.
 

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