Should the western provinces seperate from the rest of the country?


snfu73
#31
If you would like anymore to read, China, be sure to let me know...I'm happy to provide...there is PLENTY of information out there on this subject if one looks.
 
MHz
#32
Is Hudson's Bay the only body of the world that doesn't have some proven reserves under the waves?
 
s243a
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

From the Alberta Federation of Labour...
:
"Admittedly revenue lost from premiums would need to be made up somewhere else. One area to examine is the area of oil royalties. Alberta royalty rates are one-half what they were under Peter Lougheed. They are 60% less than Alaska. There is no economic evidence showing that low royalties increase oil exploration, and that a moderate increase in royalty rates would cause a slowing of oil activity.
To the contrary, evidence from Alaska and Norway demonstrate that higher royalties enhance the overall economy, as more revenue is directed efficiently to government, allowing for lowering of taxes in other, less efficient and less fair areas.
If Alberta raised our royalties to the level of Alaska, we would bring in $2.0 billion more per year. This would more than erase any loss from the elimination of health premiums."

That may or may not be true. The comparison is not an apples to apples comparison though. If royalties are 60% less then what they are in Alaska but costs are 60% more; then both investments are approximately equally competitive. We must remember though that royalties are only low until the capital cost is paid off. This encourages industry to keep investing so that can remain in the lower royalty regime.
 
china
#34
snfu 73 ,

If you would like anymore to read, China, be sure to let me know...I'm happy to provide...there is PLENTY of information out there on this subject if one looks.________________________________

Thank You ,I will .
 
MikeyDB
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarinView Post

Well, Harper, has made it clear: the chief function of the Canadian federation is to act as a conduit for funds to Quebec.
There's not much promise nor longevity in such recipes. I say - Go!

Quite right Tamarin...

Canadians from the border of Ontario/Manitoba...west have been abused by the Canadian government for generations. The Maritime provinces have been ignored and dumped on by the Canadian government for generations.....

The government of Canada isn't the government of Canada...it's the government of Canada according to the recipie for blackmail and corruption that passes for the government of Quebec...

I think the west should go their own way, and I think Quebec should go their own way too. If high and mighty Ontario is happy with its ridiculous out-of-touch government...and it seems we Ontarians are...we should have the McGuinty Magical Mystery Tour opt for nationhood...independent of all the other provinces...

Canada is a joke that's been sustained by the wealthy to ensure that trade agreements with their American counterparts is honored so that the wealthy can continue to subjugate the rest...

Our government is the instrument of subjugation and when Quebec can call the tune to Ottawa and our elected "representatives" dance to that tune...there isn't really a Canada to speak of in any respect....

Pull the plug and let's hope sanity will return before all the newly created banana republics would be consumed by America...
 
tamarin
#36
Mikey, I'm an eastern Ontarian who's spitting angry with Ottawa. I am tired of the special status bestowed on Quebec by the federal government. With the ascension of Mario Dumont to the official opposition in Quebec, we can be sure the province's demands will only increase. Dumont, the grand autonomist, knows there are many purse strings yet to be pulled in Ottawa and he will make sure his province is served first. Harper made sure the resolution on Quebec nationhood passed and the province given the go ahead to act independently at international conferences. Talk about having your cake and eating it too. If the western provinces have any self-respect they will attempt to protect the proceeds of their purse from the blackmail implicit in the Ottawa-Quebec accord.
 
Trex
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Quite right Tamarin...

Canadians from the border of Ontario/Manitoba...west have been abused by the Canadian government for generations. The Maritime provinces have been ignored and dumped on by the Canadian government for generations.....

The government of Canada isn't the government of Canada...it's the government of Canada according to the recipie for blackmail and corruption that passes for the government of Quebec...

I think the west should go their own way, and I think Quebec should go their own way too. If high and mighty Ontario is happy with its ridiculous out-of-touch government...and it seems we Ontarians are...we should have the McGuinty Magical Mystery Tour opt for nationhood...independent of all the other provinces...

Canada is a joke that's been sustained by the wealthy to ensure that trade agreements with their American counterparts is honored so that the wealthy can continue to subjugate the rest...

Our government is the instrument of subjugation and when Quebec can call the tune to Ottawa and our elected "representatives" dance to that tune...there isn't really a Canada to speak of in any respect....

Pull the plug and let's hope sanity will return before all the newly created banana republics would be consumed by America...


Well put Mikey
Could'nt agree more on this topic.
Canada is not and never will be a country that treats each province in a fair and equitable manner.
The game is rigged in favour of the "old originals" or the "forefathers" of this confederation.
The western provinces are the "hewers of wood and drawers of water" and they will stay that way just as long as the eastern mandarins can swing it.
Who in there right mind would believe that a province that has clout and power above and beyond its population base (read Quebec) would voluntarily surrender that power and influence?
Hence the west will always pay a little more and get a little less, except for maybe a fond pat on the head from the folks who, after all, really do know what's best for us.

Having said that I really believe that the sum of the parts is greater together than ripped apart.
Alberta of course could be an enormously wealthy little country.
BC would always have a great port and be a tourist destination, it too would be a wealthy little country.
We could possibly join the USA and they probably would love to take us. That thought sends shivers of horror up many a Canadian spine. In the long haul people in Alberta and BC would probably benefit from a slightly higher standard of living if we joined the states.
Cascadia could work as well, but the Cascadian ex-americans would run it and then it would be a kind of rich mini america without the slums.
I dont think western Canadians cars to go down this road.

I think the western provinces should play the seperation card hard and often. It really is there only chance to at least try for an equitable deal with eastern Canada. Perhaps if Quebec really believed there was a risk of the gravy train(Alberta) leaving they would agree to a country that treats each province fairly ,like equitable seats in Ottowa or an elected senate.
 
snfu73
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Quite right Tamarin...

Canadians from the border of Ontario/Manitoba...west have been abused by the Canadian government for generations. The Maritime provinces have been ignored and dumped on by the Canadian government for generations.....

The government of Canada isn't the government of Canada...it's the government of Canada according to the recipie for blackmail and corruption that passes for the government of Quebec...

I think the west should go their own way, and I think Quebec should go their own way too. If high and mighty Ontario is happy with its ridiculous out-of-touch government...and it seems we Ontarians are...we should have the McGuinty Magical Mystery Tour opt for nationhood...independent of all the other provinces...

Canada is a joke that's been sustained by the wealthy to ensure that trade agreements with their American counterparts is honored so that the wealthy can continue to subjugate the rest...

Our government is the instrument of subjugation and when Quebec can call the tune to Ottawa and our elected "representatives" dance to that tune...there isn't really a Canada to speak of in any respect....

Pull the plug and let's hope sanity will return before all the newly created banana republics would be consumed by America...

Holy crap...that's pretty strong rhetoric. I dunno...I don't think things are as bad as that, however, there does seem to be some issues that need to be resolved with federal and provincial relations. Again though, I don't think Ottawa is really screwing anyone. I think it tries to be fair. I think the bulk of news items cover what goes on between Ottawa and Quebec more because it is a hot topic. There is plenty of federal development elsewhere...again, going back to Alberta, this province would not be in the position it is now in without federal monies. Alberta has not been kicked around or ignored. Alberta has got it's fair share and it has paid off.
 
Northboy
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

Just one question -- would it be better if the western provinces went their own way?
Your humble opinion?

Collective wisdom is always better, but we need to be true to ourselves...

We are Canadian, the whole of it, and God made us that way....
 
tamarin
#40
The Indians say the land was given by God to them. I say let's give it back.
 
folcar
#41
Who Cares about western seperation. I'm still waiting for Ontario's seperatist movement to pick up speed, LOL! This country would be far better suited to run as a confederacy, with the federal government handling international affairs, defence and the supreme court. Give every province equal representation and let the provinces handle there own affairs whether it's health care, infrastructure, etc, etc.
 
hermanntrude
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by folcarView Post

Who Cares about western seperation. I'm still waiting for Ontario's seperatist movement to pick up speed, LOL! This country would be far better suited to run as a confederacy, with the federal government handling international affairs, defence and the supreme court. Give every province equal representation and let the provinces handle there own affairs whether it's health care, infrastructure, etc, etc.

why would it be better? Are you just seeing the grass on the other side as being greener?
 
folcar
#43
why would it be better? Are you just seeing the grass on the other side as being greener?

The largest and most consistant complaint nation wide is that every body is not getting there fair share back out of what they put in, this is the primary argument of Western and Quebec seperatists. Under such a confederation each province would be responsible unto itself with the federal government completely out of provincial affairs, with one exception. In the event any province is found to be violating the constitutional rights of it's citizens than the feds and the supreme court could and should intervene.
 
tamarin
#44
Time for one of the kids to go it on his own. Once one leaves that'll smarten the rest up.
 
folcar
#45
Time for one of the kids to go it on his own. Once one leaves that'll smarten the rest up.

It's surprising it hasn't taken place yet, there have certainly been no shortage of mvements and political groups striving for it. I would be surprised if this country stayed together for another 50 years, as the first 100 have been ripe with dissent and distinct lack of solidarity. Heck i still love this country though, even as messed up as it is
 
hermanntrude
#46
breakups of large countries are usually a sign of instability and i suspect usually end up with most of the previous member states in a worse situation. Why not try to unify the provinces and territories and help make the whole a better place rather than smash it up into tiny peices?
 
folcar
#47
Why not try to unify the provinces and territories and help make the whole a better place rather than smash it up into tiny peices?

Agreed, i think to do so would be one heck of an uphill climb. And would end with a new constitution, and more clearly defined roles for the federal and provincial governments. I already believe if this country is to survive this is currently neccessary, but it remains to be seen if the country has the stomach for it.
 
hermanntrude
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by folcarView Post

Agreed, i think to do so would be one heck of an uphill climb. And would end with a new constitution, and more clearly defined roles for the federal and provincial governments. I already believe if this country is to survive this is currently neccessary, but it remains to be seen if the country has the stomach for it.

better an uphill climb than a downhill slide, which is how I imagine any separation to be.
 
snfu73
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrudeView Post

better an uphill climb than a downhill slide, which is how I imagine any separation to be.

Excellent point...I completely agree.
 
Trex
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by snfu73View Post

You do realize that part of the reason that alberta's oil industry has been able to develop the way it has is because of federal government investment. There is talk of a nuclear power plant being built in the oilsands area....you realize that the government of canada...and therefore all canadians will be building that, no? You do realize that Ralph has made it so that a good majority of the money generated by oil in alberta goes out of the country...we should be getting far higher returns on each barrel of oil that goes out. If the west is going to seperate I assume you mean saskatchewan and manitoba will be going to. Well, alberta better start coughing up some money for them, because they ain't exactly rich provinces....and alberta does not have a good track record of working too well with anyone.

Well I thought I would take a stab at refuting this post. This post and the following massive cut and paste posts following it which quote the Pembina Institute among others present a fairly left wing view. I could do a massive cut and paste response quoting Oilweek, Alberta Report, Journal of Petroleum Engeneering etc etc but I will spare us all that.
Instead I will just give my opinions flawed as they undoubtebly are.

I do not believe there has been much, if any, Federal govt investment in Alberta's hydrocarbon industry.
I remember the NEP when the Fed's sucked billions out of Alberta. It destroyed the industry, which shut down overnight and laid off tens of thousands. I remember people walking away from their mortguages because they no longer had jobs.
I remember the Feds creating Petro-Canada which ended up proving once again that politicians are poor at business.
And I remember the Fed's funding a lot of the drilling up in the high Arctic which benefited some of the northern communities.
But as far as Alberta,its industries and the federal government are concerned its been a take not a give situation.
Just because a government lowers taxs on a paticular business sector does not mean they are subsidizing or giving it money....it simply means they are taking less of that businesses earned profits away from it.

A nuclear reactor in Fort MacMurray probably would be a viable idea. Certainly better than burning up all our natural gas to run the tarsands.
Why however would you assume that industry (which is going to foot the bill for this reactor) would pick a Canadian reactor. Granted the Feds have pumped billions into Candu and the Ontario/Quebec nuclear generating business. But why would Alberta want that? Wouldn't we shop around? Whats wrong with American reactors? Japanese? French? British?

As to Ralph sending the oil/money out of the country.
Well its a free and open market.Anybody who wants to buy the stuff can. you can, I can, the Americans can. Should we stop foreign sales of our resources? No nickel or minerals allowed out of the country? No wood products? Wheat and cereal crops? Does it all have to stay here for Canadian consumption?
Wont work.
Some of the money flows south because the businesses are american owned.
We could ban that I suppose.
But then wouldnt we have to boot out Ford, GM, Dodge, G.E. and such from eastern Canada?

A level pool table is what some of us in the west want.
Treating all peoples and provinces the same may be naive but its an attractive idea to some.
 
china
#51
tamarin ,
The Indians say the land was given by God to them. I say let's give it back.

Yeap , and move to....................China
 
nicca
#52
what are pros and cons of quebec leaving canada
 
talloola
#53
The maritimes would be very isolated, but I guess here in B.C., we are isolated too, suits me fine, feels like we are different anyway, have 'our' own identity, our own little country, that's good.
But Quebec being 'gone' would create border issues between maritimes, always having to go through
quebec, or, would they even care, maybe no problem at all.
And how about the St. Lawrence Seaway, such an important part of Canada.
And, just how would separation come about, in reality. I have never heard anyone explain that part.
What if Quebec decided to separate and the Canadian Government said NO. What then. A war?
Just replying to last post, guess this is off topic, oh well, I'll post it anyway.
 
china
#54
talloola ,
The maritimes would be very isolated,_________________________________________ ___

From what I have read ,somewhere , the maritimes had better standard of living BEFORE joining the rest of the country .In my humble opinion this country of Canada is just to big to be "governed"
by some incompetent individuals .Why not split on a friendly basis ,and co-operate with each other.It would make all of us a winner.After all Quebec can take care of its self ,the West can
market its minerals agricultural products the way they want to market it,maritimes have the fisheries and the offshore oil and Ontario ,well ,they can blow their horn all they want.
 
talloola
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

talloola ,
The maritimes would be very isolated,_________________________________________ ___

From what I have read ,somewhere , the maritimes had better standard of living BEFORE joining the rest of the country .In my humble opinion this country of Canada is just to big to be "governed"
by some incompetent individuals .Why not split on a friendly basis ,and co-operate with each other.It would make all of us a winner.After all Quebec can take care of its self ,the West can
market its minerals agricultural products the way they want to market it,maritimes have the fisheries and the offshore oil and Ontario ,well ,they can blow their horn all they want.

Sounds good to me, when should we start, and what should I wear, and do I need a weapon?
If we could have our Beautiful British Columbia to ourselves, we would have something so special,
and the rest of the country would never know what they are missing, those rocky mountains are
a perfect border.
 
china
#56
I have only pressed once the above post .Don't know why so many copies of the same post ,please forgive me , China .
 
china
#57
talloola
Sounds good to me, when should we start, and what should I wear, and do I need a weapon?

Do we need a weapons ? My dear friend, the greatest weapon is a sober dream of the people and their unshaken will to turn that dream into a reality .

___You can wear what you want , as long as you wear something .
Last edited by china; Apr 8th, 2007 at 09:06 AM..
 
talloola
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

talloola
Sounds good to me, when should we start, and what should I wear, and do I need a weapon?

Do we need a weapons ? My dear friend, the greatest weapon is a sober dream of the people and their unshaken will to turn that dream into a reality .

___You can wear what you want , as long as you wear something .

OK, I will clothe respectfully, and I'll bring our Beautiful B.C. Flag, a smile, and a sober dream,
very easy, and exciting.
 
china
#59
talloola
a smile, and a sober dream,
very easy, and exciting._________________________________________ _______________

all great things start with a dream and an action .
Last edited by china; Apr 12th, 2007 at 09:04 AM..
 
folcar
#60
From what I have read ,somewhere , the maritimes had better standard of living BEFORE joining the rest of the country .In my humble opinion this country of Canada is just to big to be "governed"

I would argue that the country is not too big to be governed, but it is more a result of government especially the Feds getting involved in too many areas where they don't have the constitutional rights to be involved in the first place. And the Provinces not having the control over there own affairs and finances in a manor that eliminate the favouritism that played out currently.
 

Similar Threads

27
Too much power to the provinces
by JonB2004 | Apr 25th, 2006
6
IF PROVINCES WERE PEOPLE
by Roy | Nov 28th, 2005
no new posts