Population Explosion: The real threat and what are we to do?


View Poll Results: Is the world's soaring population a real serious issue?
YES! 10 66.67%
Nah, nothing to worry about! 5 33.33%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

Zzarchov
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

China has well over one billion people but manages to feed its population quite well. All it takes is for those other nations to develop the same technological advancements.

1.) China is not food self sufficient anymore, hasn't been in some time.

2.) It has a declining birthrate because it saw the writing on the wall and instituted harsh policies (leading to massive wealth generation)

3.) Technology has nothing to do with it.

The West can develop wealth and feed itself because it has a declining population. The rest of the world cannot, and increases population ever faster than food supply. This is called a population cycle, it happens to all things in nature. Your population grows till a breaking point, then 90% of your population dies off and you begin anew. If people don't want that to happen, they have to take their brains out of their pants, and not act like a lemming.


There are only two ways a nation can develop wealth, discovering (or conquering) some new valuable resource or have a declining birth rate.

The most common natural cause of a declining birthrate is being a wealthy society. Thats why China had to take such brutal measures.

No matter how you think we could stripmine our planet to feed more people, there is a physical limit, and with population going up exponentially we will reach it sooner or later. Quit shovelling responsibilities onto your kids because you don't want to be an adult and deal with them yourself. With the quality of life we have now (in the west) we can't support the population we have now. You shouldn't plan to bring your children into a worse world than you grew up in.
 
gopher
+1
#32
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
darkbeaver
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

```99.99999999999999999999999%```

There are multiples of millions of unused acreage that can be used for agricultural homesteading here in the USA's Midwest. Again, I refer to Charles Mann's 1491 where, among other things, he discusses how Native Americans used almost the entire Amazon basin as farmland before it became marshland.

Millions of acres in Canada, the Midwest, Amazon basin, the Sahara, Australia; billions of gallons of fresh water that can be purified; and an endless supply of medicines -- all prove that the human race can sustain a geometric population growth. All it takes is for the will to make it possible.

That water and those conditions will soon not exist as they do now, the loss of crop land and water will proceed into the middle of this century there is no time to implement the changes in thinking required to carry out even the beginning. Climate models predict desertification of vast areas of the southern hemisphere before the 2050.
 
darkbeaver
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by ZzarchovView Post

To solution is dreadfully simple. Don't give aid or ship food to nations with massive birthrates.

If they choose to keep murdering their own people by having more than they can feed that is their choice.

Do you think they won't notice we're eating? I dare you to make the next logical step and suggest a final solution, because that's what you'll have to do if you want to abandone them.
 
darkbeaver
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by westmanguyView Post

Lets remember much of Canada is not inhabited, but alot of that is farm land and mining.

And unlivable mountain terrain.

It would be hard to manage a high population...

Ah suberben couples are only having 1-3 MAX kids these days.

Middle class only wants 1-2 children, so we may see things even out.

You could do mankind a favour and forgo the pleasure of children.
 
gopher
+1
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

That water and those conditions will soon not exist as they do now, the loss of crop land and water will proceed into the middle of this century there is no time to implement the changes in thinking required to carry out even the beginning. Climate models predict desertification of vast areas of the southern hemisphere before the 2050.

Desalinization technology can be easily built and used to fertilize millions of tillable acres. All it take is for the government to demonstrate willingness.
 
darkbeaver
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

Desalinization technology can be easily built and used to fertilize millions of tillable acres. All it take is for the government to demonstrate willingness.

I agee with you on everything except the easy part. Just to get government willingness will take the destruction of the ruling classes, remember they don't work for us and they don't particularly care if we die by the billions as long as they remain in power.
 
gopher
+1
#38
Woops, don't say that too loud or some critics here will call you a stoooopid radical leftist bedwetting crypto commie of the lowest kind!
 
Zzarchov
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

Do you think they won't notice we're eating? I dare you to make the next logical step and suggest a final solution, because that's what you'll have to do if you want to abandone them.

So you are saying we should invade them and take control of their government? If its our duty to help them its because they are part of our society. If they are part of our society then they obey our rules the same as anyone else.

If they are not part of our society, they can do as they wish. The downside being, THEY can do as THEY wish. Its no different than someone moving out of their parents. If they are still a child its their parents job to protect them, if they are adults, their life is their responsibility.

I don't get you, on the one hand you don't think you should tell other nations what to do. On the other you say you are responsible for them. THey are contradictory. Its like saying your parents can't tell you what to do, but they HAVE to pay your rent and buy you groceries.


Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

Desalinization technology can be easily built and used to fertilize millions of tillable acres. All it take is for the government to demonstrate willingness.


And then what? The population isn't going to then magically stop growing. Thats the fun of exponential growth. IT won't matter jack. At some point, people have to act like adults and not have kids they can't feed.



You know why we eat in the west? we all have declining Birthrates. We eat because we sacrifice for it.

If the rest of the world wishes to eat as we eat, they can sacrifice for it too. Its not our job to not have kids so they can have many. We aren't slaves to them.

Its like complaining about not having money when you refuse to work. We used to have massive problems with feeding the poor, till our birthrate started dropping.
 
gopher
+1
#40
What you are saying is precisely the same thing Malthusians said in the 1840s. BOOM-GLOOM-DOOM!

Yet, here we are over 150+ years later. And it's a good bet that 150 years from now people will look back and ask what the fear was all about.
 
snfu73
#41
I think we will only know how many humans the world can sustain once we have hit the limit...and things start going bad...not enough food, water, space, shelter and air. I don't think it is an issue everywhere...I don't think Canada has a major issue at the moment....but there are some countries where things seem a little...tighter shall we say.
 
Zzarchov
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

What you are saying is precisely the same thing Malthusians said in the 1840s. BOOM-GLOOM-DOOM!

Yet, here we are over 150+ years later. And it's a good bet that 150 years from now people will look back and ask what the fear was all about.


Yep, and alls it took to keep the band-aid on the problem was massive destruction of the wonder in the world, making it harder to solve now.

And just think, wars are caused when there is overpopulation, so for the selfishness of having so many kids even waay back then, you got to subject your children and grandchildren (whom you obviously don't care for) to massive world wars and campaigns of genocide. Not to mention the continent sweeping famines and massive levels of pollution. The destruction of irreplacable species and landforms..

All for what? So you don't have to be responsible for sex?
 
gopher
+1
#43
I never married and have no children or grand children. but the doom and gloom you fear is the same as that spoken of in the 1840s when we did not have the technology we have today.

Again, using it for advancement rather than death and war is a matter of choice. Obviously, war is profitable and that's why tech isn't used properly.
 
gopher
+1
#44
When I was in high school in 1967, one of the most acclaimed books was the doom and gloom Famine 1975:

www.overpopulation.com/faq/pe..._brothers.html (external - login to view)

Today we can look back and almost laugh at how pathetic it turned out to be!
 
Zzarchov
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

I never married and have no children or grand children. but the doom and gloom you fear is the same as that spoken of in the 1840s when we did not have the technology we have today.

Again, using it for advancement rather than death and war is a matter of choice. Obviously, war is profitable and that's why tech isn't used properly.


That doom and gloom came to pass. Part of the doom and gloom predicted would be that there would be increasing levels of warfare as civilized nations fought over ever shrinking availability of living space and resources in increasingly viscous and blood thirsty wars until they annihilated each others populations to the point there was enough room.

Sound familiar? Its what happened and what very nearly got much much worse. Its still only on pause, it isn't fixed yet.

From European wars being about honour, fought with rules and civility we had total war breakout.. and what types of things were fought over? Lebensraum, living space.


The Food problem is also not "solved" the 1975 problems are still there.

The "green revolution" is based upon using limited resources for temporary food boom. The energy used producing food is now something like what, 2000 times greater than produced? Before you produced more than you expended. Not only that, the processes needed to fuel this type of farming cannabalize available land, for the long term, ruining it.

This is like saying "See I can easily make more money, look I just pawned my couch, I can afford this new car" , It just means once you run out of things to pawn you are going to be more hosed than you were before.

This cannot continue.


I have yet to hear a good reason WHY we need 25 billion people and growing on the planet, What is wrong with five billion, or three billion?
Last edited by Zzarchov; Mar 21st, 2007 at 12:21 AM..
 
gopher
+1
#46
I genuinely share your concern. But the key is that we must work with determination for peace and for advancement. You don't just give up and resign yourself unnecessarily as the Millerites did in the 1840s.

The Malthusians were wrong. The Millerties were wrong.

David Ricardo was right. And from all indications, his current disciples are equally correct.
 

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