Sorry, but women are dependent on men


sanctus
#1


By DR NICK NEAVE


We live in an age in which women have earned complete independence. So do they need men at all? According to Dr NICK NEAVE, an evolutionary psychologist from Northumbria University, not only do they need men, they are fundamentally programmed to depend on them. Here, Dr Neave, 41, explains his provocative thesis:
You're a successful woman with a job to die for, a fabulous home and a supportive husband, but do you ever get the urge to check his mobile phone for love messages? Or his bank statements for intimate meals a deux that you didn't share? And do you lie awake at night worrying how you'll cope if the worst happens, your fears are proved and your husband walks out?
Don't worry. Your suspicion is only natural. At the risk of sounding extraordinarily sexist, I'm convinced that women, even in the happiest of relationships, are programmed to worry their men are going to abandon them.
And they're terrified - in a way that most men find it frankly impossible to imagine. What's more, if their forebodings come true, women are more inclined to forgive an affair than a man if the shoe is on the other foot. That's not because they're nicer, more easygoing individuals. It's simply because their primeval urge to hang onto a male provider is so strong.
Women in the 21st century may boast that they are truly independent for the first time in our social history. They may tell themselves and each other that they don't need a man. They can even start a family on their own thanks to IVF techniques.
But, while feminists may argue this proves women have finally kicked off the shackles of dependence on men, I'm afraid they're wrong.
In evolutionary terms the huge cultural changes over the past generation amount simply to the merest blink of an eye. It could take another 10,000 years for women to change their thinking.
Quite simply, women are preprogrammed to feel dependent on men. Even today women may be richer and enjoy all the trappings of success but, deep down in their psyche, they fear they can't survive alone.
These women may be shooting up the career ladder and earning more than the men in their lives, but when it comes to relationships men still hold the trump card.
As an evolutionary psychologist, I study patterns of behaviour dating back to the first human societies, and constantly analyse evidence that demonstrates the key differences which have developed between the sexes since men were hunter-gatherers and women were child bearers.
Females are smaller and weaker than males so, in prehistoric times, women and their offspring were prone to being the victims of predators, and violence.
They needed the support and protection of men who didn't just have brute force but also had social status in the group, either through their sheer physicality or the strength of their personality.
That's why women still look for a mate of higher social standing.
If a woman had a relationship with a socially dominant male, she would immediately get greater access to resources because her social standing would be elevated, too.
As we shall see, modern surveys consistently show that women today ape those inherent characteristics by looking for partners who are socially dominant and have the respect of their peers, paying close attention to how men interact with, and are treated by, other men.
Men have a different reason for choosing a mate. The caveman needed to be sure he was raising a child who was genetically his. The best way of doing this was to secure a mate and guard her so she didn't get the chance to stray.
A man's natural instinct may be to have sex with a different woman every day, but to safeguard his relationship (and secure his progeny), he has been forced into a pattern of monogamy. don't even realise what's happening. When couples meet at speed-dating evenings, typically a man will judge a woman on her looks and youth. His priorities are whether she's healthy, interested in sex and can give him children one day. He doesn't care how much she earns or her social status.
Typically, however, a woman's first question will be: 'What job do you do?' It sounds a friendly overture, but what she really wants to know is his social position and earning capacity. Is he an industrious, hard worker, capable of providing for her and their children?
Because of his power, even the ugliest politician on the planet has women lining up to go to bed with him. Were he the local rat catcher, his love life would be a good deal quieter. As American statesman Henry Kissinger put it: 'Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.'
One might argue that it's only natural for today's women in their 30s or 40s to feel dependent on a man. After all, the vast majority were raised by mothers who by and large didn't have careers and were forced to rely financially on their husbands.
Yet study after study proves that today's women in their 20s are just as insecure. In a recent study, two American researchers, John Marshall Townsend from Syracuse University and Gary Levy from the University of Toledo, presented women with photographs of men.
The first group, described as doctors, wore designer ties, smart shirts and sported Rolex watches. The second wore plain shirts and Swatch watches and were described as teachers. The third group wore Burger King uniforms.
Women repeatedly picked doctors as potential boyfriends - even though many of the men in the third category were actually more handsome. Quite simply, to women a man's looks are less important than earning power and social standing.
In another study, male and female medical students were asked to pick their ideal mate from a selection of careers. The majority of men chose nurses. Women, however, picked hospital consultants. This demonstrates that, although every bit as financially successful as their male colleagues, these young women still feel they need men to confer power and social standing to a superior male.
It's no surprise to me that another study this year by sociologists at Virginia University found that couples are happiest in traditional marriages run on old-fashioned gender lines, where the man is the main breadwinner. The report showed conclusively that women who worked were more dissatisfied with their husbands than those who stayed at home.
One of the experts, W Radford Wilcox, said: 'Regardless of what married women say they believe about gender, they tend to have happier marriages when their husband is a good provider.'
Happiest of all were women whose husbands brought in at least two-thirds of the household income, regardless of how much they helped with domestic chores.
In short I suspect women will never feel truly comfortable earning more than their men. The need to rely on a man is driven by such a deep-seated biological urge, I cannot see it ever being eradicated completely.
Only last week, a survey by the Skipton Building Society concluded that many women who are the main breadwinner hold it against their partner for contributing less to the household budget than they do.
While those women might like the material rewards of their high salaries, they also dislike the financial responsibility - perhaps reflectingthe inbuilt genetic imperative to rely on someone else.
It is that instinctive need to rely on a man which makes women so afraid of abandonment. Perhaps that is why women are more attuned to their partner's moods and curious about tiny aspects of his life. And they are much better than men at spotting liars.
Evolutionary psychologists are convinced that these are in part throwbacks to a woman's need to maintain her relationship at all costs.
It's completely irrational for women, who can earn as much as men, to have a terror of being abandoned. Even if she can't work, the welfare state means she's not going to starve. Yet it's a real fear for many women. We have anecdotal evidence of women lying awake at night worrying how they'd cope.
Women are terrified of abandonment. They fear a drop in status or social standing that might come with divorce in a way men - who are driven by very different priorities - simply don't understand.
Even extremely wealthy, successful women have these vestigial anxieties which bear absolutely no relation to the reality of their lives, but are throwbacks to caveman society.
Ironically, although men actually fare less well after divorce and are often less happy, women typically are more frightened of living alone.
Men find it extremely hard to forgive an affair. This dates back to early man's horror of unwittingly raising another man's child. However, women are predisposed to be more tolerant of affairs. It comes down to brutal economics. The thought of your husband having sex with another woman may be devastating. But even worse is the prospect of him pouring all his financial resources her way.
Quite simply, women are so programmed to feel dependent that their subliminal urge to safeguard the home often outweighs the fury of being sexually betrayed.
Terror of being abandoned even drives the beauty industry. Eating clinics report a four-fold rise in the number of middle-aged women seeking help for anorexia and bulimia because they're desperate to look slim and youthful. These problems were once the province of teenage girls.
And while women may claim they are having cosmetic surgery and Botox treatments purely to feel better about themselves, I believe the reason is much more complex. Women are driven by a primeval urge to keep their men by looking youthful and fertile. Sexist? Maybe. True? I fear so.



 
RomSpaceKnight
#2
Human beings are creatures of evolution. The veneer of civilization is very thin. We have been primitive hunter/gatherers for most of our evolution. Men hunted and women gathered. Necessity polarized our roles in society. Physiology polarized our roles in society. How long till we shake off our old ways? Is it possible to be different yet wholey equal? Is this good science? Remember Philip Rushton out of UWO with his findings that blacks were not as intelligent as whites who were not as intelligent as orientals. The problem with his findings was it did into go into why. I could say the sun rises in the east. Yet I would not be granted tenure as a professor of astrodynamics, would I? Beside with the advances in cloning technology these days, males may very well find themselves dependent of females as we become redundant.
 
Ariadne
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by sanctusView Post



By DR NICK NEAVE


We live in an age in which women have earned complete independence. So do they need men at all? According to Dr NICK NEAVE, an evolutionary psychologist from Northumbria University, not only do they need men, they are fundamentally programmed to depend on them. Here, Dr Neave, 41, explains his provocative thesis:

Well isn't that an interesting little paper. Does anyone in their right mind actually believe it? I can understand why men might want to put themselves on a little pedestal and attempt to prolong their almost forgotten status as the superior gender, but is anyone actually foolish enough to believe this last dying stunt of men crawling up on their pedestal?

Women are independent in pretty much every way necessary. Do women make themselves attractive because it makes them feel good about themselves and results in a more positive response from a those they encounter, or is it their little insecurities about themselves and fear of losing a man that causes them to look after themselves. Tough question - not.

I think it's men that need women and men that are hopelessly insecure without a woman. We all know the stories about 20 something women that can't stop talking about their feelings. I've noticed that about the time that women turn 40, they really don't care to discuss their feelings anymore but then the men start up and won't stop talking about their feelings. Perhaps women between 20 and 40 think they need men, but after 40 they know better and men have to come clean about needing women.
 
selfactivated
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Well isn't that an interesting little paper. Does anyone in their right mind actually believe it? I can understand why men might want to put themselves on a little pedestal and attempt to prolong their almost forgotten status as the superior gender, but is anyone actually foolish enough to believe this last dying stunt of men crawling up on their pedestal?

Women are independent in pretty much every way necessary. Do women make themselves attractive because it makes them feel good about themselves and results in a more positive response from a those they encounter, or is it their little insecurities about themselves and fear of losing a man that causes them to look after themselves. Tough question - not.

I think it's men that need women and men that are hopelessly insecure without a woman. We all know the stories about 20 something women that can't stop talking about their feelings. I've noticed that about the time that women turn 40, they really don't care to discuss their feelings anymore but then the men start up and won't stop talking about their feelings. Perhaps women between 20 and 40 think they need men, but after 40 they know better and men have to come clean about needing women.


 
Ariadne
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by selfactivatedView Post

The article is so nicely written by a man telling women who they are and why they do what they do. How many men would take a document seriously if it was written by a women telling men who they are and why they do what they do? Not many, I suspect. It couldn't be any more chauvenistic if it had the word in the title.
 
sanctus
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

The article is so nicely written by a man telling women who they are and why they do what they do. How many men would take a document seriously if it was written by a women telling men who they are and why they do what they do? Not many, I suspect. It couldn't be any more chauvenistic if it had the word in the title.


Hmm...are you suggesting this gentleman might be wrong??? A man??? hmmm.hah hah hah hah
 
CDNBear
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Well isn't that an interesting little paper. Does anyone in their right mind actually believe it? I can understand why men might want to put themselves on a little pedestal and attempt to prolong their almost forgotten status as the superior gender, but is anyone actually foolish enough to believe this last dying stunt of men crawling up on their pedestal?

Women are independent in pretty much every way necessary. Do women make themselves attractive because it makes them feel good about themselves and results in a more positive response from a those they encounter, or is it their little insecurities about themselves and fear of losing a man that causes them to look after themselves. Tough question - not.

I think it's men that need women and men that are hopelessly insecure without a woman. We all know the stories about 20 something women that can't stop talking about their feelings. I've noticed that about the time that women turn 40, they really don't care to discuss their feelings anymore but then the men start up and won't stop talking about their feelings. Perhaps women between 20 and 40 think they need men, but after 40 they know better and men have to come clean about needing women.

As much as I dissagree with the article. It confuses me as to how you came to dissagree with it, seeing as your stance on support is the pretty much the same premise as the articles.

Woman has child, man must support her in her choices. Sounds pretty much like dependence to me.
 
TenPenny
#8
The fact that the article comes from the UK speaks volumes about men and UK society.

Other than that, it's an utterly pointless waste of paper.
 
jimmoyer
#9
Men need women.

Especially when we are older.

 
Ariadne
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

As much as I dissagree with the article. It confuses me as to how you came to dissagree with it, seeing as your stance on support is the pretty much the same premise as the articles.

Woman has child, man must support her in her choices. Sounds pretty much like dependence to me.

Man gets woman pregnant, expects woman to incubate sperm, give birth, raise child, and treat man like adolescent offspring. Sounds pretty much like dependence to me too.
 
Ariadne
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by sanctusView Post

Hmm...are you suggesting this gentleman might be wrong??? A man??? hmmm.hah hah hah hah

Look at the guy ... what do you think!
northumbria.ac.uk/sd/academic...staff/n_neave/ (external - login to view)
"... regularly appears in the media commenting upon various psychological issues. " He's an attention seeker and if he can't get it from a woman, he'll scrounge it from the media.
 
Ariadne
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by jimmoyerView Post

Men need women.

Especially when we are older.

Exactly. If a man's wife goes out of town, she not only has to pre-cook dinners for the time that she is away, but she has to label which day they should be eaten (as though it makes a difference) because the man is too helpless to know what to do without that level of instructions.
 
jimmoyer
#13
LOL, Ariadne !!

You speak truth White Woman.
 
Kreskin
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Exactly. If a man's wife goes out of town, she not only has to pre-cook dinners for the time that she is away, but she has to label which day they should be eaten (as though it makes a difference) because the man is too helpless to know what to do without that level of instructions.

I wish she would leave a note to say what's in the fridge and what's in the freezer. It's too confusing.
 
jimmoyer
#15
Who would have guessed that this thread was going to follow this groove of thinking ?
 
Ariadne
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

I wish she would leave a note to say what's in the fridge and what's in the freezer. It's too confusing.

I completely understand. We keep dead baby mice in our fridge and I'm quite certain that a helpless man would indeed swallow them like frozen delights if they weren't labeled.
 
Ariadne
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by jimmoyerView Post

Who would have guessed that this thread was going to follow this groove of thinking ?

Nick is barely 42 years old, started out as a primary school teacher and then took to torturing rats and writing about the results. He has hardly had time to understand women. In fact, given his history, he seems to have found ways to successfully avoid women. What seems to be completely missing in his bio is any formal study of psychology or sociology (other than grammer school).
psych.unn.ac.uk/users/nick/biography.htm (external - login to view)
 
CDNBear
#18
Is this really how you all view this?

I must admit that in my relationship, the dependence is paramount, but one can be removed and the other still functional, as devistating that would be, if it were perminant. We have ensure the survival of the other with both finacial and functional safe guards to succeed in that.

Both of us, as dependent on the other as we are, are still quite capable of operating without the others presence as a crutch. Some of the safe guards we have we brought in to the relationship, ie: self reliance, personal accountablity, well developed sences of self/without being selfish and a strong personal identity.

Perhaps that is why our views in the other thread vary as greatly as they do, you have become to accustomed to the support of the other to function without, do to lacking in other areas prior to your marriage?
 
Daz_Hockey
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

The fact that the article comes from the UK speaks volumes about men and UK society.

Other than that, it's an utterly pointless waste of paper.


oi!!!......were not all bloody sexists you know!!!.
 
Sassylassie
#20
I always find it very funny when a male pens an essay on women and what they "Deem" us to be or not to be that is the question. Let us be honest most men will go to their grave never understanding the female mind, like their father's fathers. It's the cycle of life, confuse the males for a life time, all women know this from birth. Otherwise this man's article is tripe, he's just mad he's not getten any.
 
CDNBear
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by SassylassieView Post

I always find it very funny when a male pens an essay on women and what they "Deem" us to be or not to be that is the question. Let us be honest most men will go to their grave never understanding the female mind, like their father's fathers. It's the cycle of life, confuse the males for a life time, all women know this from birth. Otherwise this man's article is tripe, he's just mad he's not getten any.

lol Sass. But I dissagree, not on your opinion of the article, I agree with that. But more the predetermined act of confusing the male of the species.

I see in many relationships that have gone off the tracks, that very phylosophy, but in ones that work and are HEALTHY, there is an equal balance dependence. More so, there are safe guards to ensure the survival of that relationship with or without both partners present. The first and fore most should be a balance in responsiblity and input.

Some realtionships rely on one partner to make all the decissions, is that healthy, not realy. Somewhere in life that person lost their ablity to think for themselves or take a stand on their own behalf. Like wise, where did the alpha get the sense of self that would produce such an over riding phylosophy?

My marriage wasn't supposed to last a year according to Boo's relatives. Because we seemed to argue about everything. Why? Because we are both alphas. Our truce is based on the fact that we are equal in almost every way. I just get to stand when I pee.

This is the most simplest yet profound example of our determination in the equality of our relationship.

The toilet seat...

It takes as much effort for me to raise it as it does for Boo to put it down. So, therefore, there is no issue if it is left up or down by the other. All it takes is an awareness of ones surroundings to avoid the cold bowl scenerio, as it does the same to not pee on the seat.

That is equality.
 
Sassylassie
#22
Great post Bear, gotta get back to work. Sobbing loudly.
 
Curiosity
#23
These are great posts

I love the topic - the age old argument between the X and Y folk....

I think we consider "dependence" as having much more negative that positive - as if we are supposed to be independent of each other we men and women....

I like to think in terms of couple-dom as interdependence and I love that there are many things my husband could do for both of us that were heroic in my mind because I could never accomplish the many things he did without having to think about them..... fixing the sprinkler system, pruning all the trees just right....chemicals in the pool the formula I could never get right - building a wonderful dining room set with inlaid pieces of wood which caused my friends to gasp when they saw it..... portions of his interdependence and gifts to me were our lives together...just as I did those things I could contribute ....because I could do them well .... while he preferred not to have to do them.... all of these things were unplanned and unspoken as we fell into the traditional roles in a family unit which felt just fine and neither of us had to feel it necessary to change...
 
Zzarchov
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Man gets woman pregnant, expects woman to incubate sperm, give birth, raise child, and treat man like adolescent offspring. Sounds pretty much like dependence to me too.

Not at all, anymore than your dependant on me if you write something that makes me sad so I eat a box of ice cream. That is to say nothing, it doesn't affect you.

Men don't need women to incubate their child. If you choose not to he has dick to say about it. But you have been saying that women NEED men to take of them because they are incapable looking after themselves and their babies (as the option of forcing the man to take sole custody has not once been brought up, its always support the mother and her baby).

Personally I think women are more than capable of raising a child on their own, I was raised by a single mom in my formative years. They have never seemed dependant to me.
 
sanctus
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by SassylassieView Post

I always find it very funny when a male pens an essay on women and what they "Deem" us to be or not to be that is the question. Let us be honest most men will go to their grave never understanding the female mind, like their father's fathers. It's the cycle of life, confuse the males for a life time, all women know this from birth. Otherwise this man's article is tripe, he's just mad he's not getten any.


But you could say the same about women in regards to understanding men. It is age old and eternal, that both sexes approach the same thing from totally different terms of understanding.
 
sanctus
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Exactly. If a man's wife goes out of town, she not only has to pre-cook dinners for the time that she is away, but she has to label which day they should be eaten (as though it makes a difference) because the man is too helpless to know what to do without that level of instructions.


Bit of a sterotype, don't you think? I know several men who not only have sole custody of their children, but are perfectly capable of running a household. Mind you, I will admit that most men I know who are living with women seem to be, saddly to say, rather hopeless when it comes to anything regarding caring for the house, the kids or even themselves.
 
tracy
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

As much as I dissagree with the article. It confuses me as to how you came to dissagree with it, seeing as your stance on support is the pretty much the same premise as the articles.

Woman has child, man must support her in her choices. Sounds pretty much like dependence to me.

The CHILD is dependent on his or her parents. Believing that doesn't mean you think women are dependent on men.

I thought the article was a little funny. I have generally made more money than the men I date. I make more than twice what my current sweetie does. I have also never been one of those girls who goes through a man's email fearing he's cheating on me. I couldn't see myself in much of that article at all...
 
Sassylassie
#28
Did ya ever notice that most essays on females lumps us all together like a herd of cows? No two females are alike unless their twins, he generalizes females and I'd hazard a guess the only female in this sad sacks life is his MaMa. I like Tracy didn't see any glimpses of moi in his article, my mother is over sixty and she's never fit into the traditional mold of wife and mother. My sister's lament that she's not grandmother material because she doesn't bake cookies and knit mittens, good grief isn't that what Walmarts for. Chances are this fella will never know how varied females are, would any single female on this forum date someone with such a narrow view of our sex?
 
CDNBear
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by SassylassieView Post

Did ya ever notice that most essays on females lumps us all together like a herd of cows? No two females are alike unless their twins, he generalizes females and I'd hazard a guess the only female in this sad sacks life is his MaMa. I like Tracy didn't see any glimpses of moi in his article, my mother is over sixty and she's never fit into the traditional mold of wife and mother. My sister's lament that she's not grandmother material because she doesn't bake cookies and knit mittens, good grief isn't that what Walmarts for. Chances are this fella will never know how varied females are, would any single female on this forum date someone with such a narrow view of our sex?

I know I wouldn't!!
Oh wait, that wasn't a theoretical question was it?
 
Ariadne
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Is this really how you all view this?

I must admit that in my relationship, the dependence is paramount, but one can be removed and the other still functional, as devistating that would be, if it were perminant. We have ensure the survival of the other with both finacial and functional safe guards to succeed in that.

Both of us, as dependent on the other as we are, are still quite capable of operating without the others presence as a crutch. Some of the safe guards we have we brought in to the relationship, ie: self reliance, personal accountablity, well developed sences of self/without being selfish and a strong personal identity.

Perhaps that is why our views in the other thread vary as greatly as they do, you have become to accustomed to the support of the other to function without, do to lacking in other areas prior to your marriage?

I am very independent ... alpha female ... but I appreciate men for their perspective and how it compliments a female perspective - there is a difference, in my opinion. An all female society would be a thoroughly frightening situation, as would an all male society. I suppose men and women depend on each other for many things, but not in the way described by Nick; the pre-school teacher turned rat specialist.
 

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