Bad news for the Tin Foil Club.


Sassylassie
#1
I came across this article about remains identified at the Twin Towers, well it seems the DNA of a flight attendant has been confirmed as a flight attendant from flight 11. There goes the theory of the planes being missles. Rest in piece. Real people died that day not crash test dummies not military members ordinary people who were butchered by Radical Extremist Muslims.

Danvers flight attendant, N.H. man ID’d from 9/11
By O’Ryan Johnson
Thursday, November 2, 2006 - Updated: 02:25 PM EST

After a five-year wait and two DNA tests, the remains of Karen Martin, a Danvers flight attendant killed aboard American Airlines Flight 11 on Sept. 11, 2001, have been identified in New York City, family members said yesterday.
“For me it’s nice because we actually have something of her that’s actually tangible, so we can bring her home now,” her brother Paul Martin told the Herald. “Before we didn’t have anything and never thought we would have anything.”
The remains of Martin, 40, who evidenced a love of flying while growing up with her two brothers and sister, were discovered at Ground Zero within days of the atrocity, according to Ellen Borakove, spokeswoman for the New York Medical Examiner’s Office.
(external - login to view)
Paul Martin said he and his two surviving siblings were administered two DNA tests before the authorities could positively identify Karen’s remains. He said the paperwork needed to return her remains to the tightknit family should be cleared within weeks.
“I was hoping to bring her home before her birthday, which is December,” he said. “Then we’d bury her in the spring.” In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, Martin’s family erected a headstone for her and buried dirt from Ground Zero at her parents’ grave in Salem.
The New York examiner’s office also yesterday identified the remains of a New Hampshire business owner, Doug Stone. He was traveling to Los Angeles aboard Flight 11 to visit his son, a UCLA freshman. Co-founder of Odyssey Press in Dover, N.H., Stone was 54. The divorced father of one had family in Lee, Mass., as well as in New Hampshire. His family could not be reached for comment.
 
Curiosity
#2
Gonna be rough on those families Sassy

I hope the goony foilers leave this one alone... it's bad enough never recovering a love-one's remains, but if new "theories" start up that these slain had something to do with the bombing from an inside job or something, I am going to suggest a complete mental status workup - it's no longer political - it is sick-O!
 
Sassylassie
#3
I agree Curio, real people died on September 11 and it makes my blood boil that the conspiracy followers gloss over that fact like it's not important. The single most important fact of September 11th is those who died that day. I have my nine iron handy incase I need it thou.
 
The Project Man
#4
Please use Aluminium foil, it is a better commodity.

My views and feelings have nothing to do with the victim blaming. Just the A-holes incharge. There far too many unanswered questions being dismissed. The science on the buildings, yata yata yata, and blah, blah,blah.


Thank you for the article.
 
Cosmo
#5
Sassy ... I'm a tin foil hat queen, a true believer that there is more than meets the eye whenever the government is involved, including 9-11. What I don't get is the correlation between those questions and the topic you bring up here.

Yes, real people died that day. I flipped on the TV before heading to work and spent that morning glued to it, tears running down my face. Once it became apparent what had happened, I was infuriated with a government that would set themselves up as a target. I was terrified thinking that the nearest thing I ever had to a son (my best friend's son) may be called to war because of this. The a**holes at the top of the political food chain are the ones who don't think about those being real people. And not just 9-11, but their foray into Iraq as well. I've seen photos that nearly made me throw up -- photos of REAL people. If you like I can send you a copy of the PowerPoint presentation for your perusal. It's about the torture of Iraqi captives.

It's not the tin foil hat brigade you need to be addressing with your scorn. It's the ones calling the shots. Don't you see the irony of your accusations? The reason us silver clad warriors won't shut up is that behind the headlines are REAL people and we object to them being used as pawns in government games. It's not us that have forgotten that fact.
 
thomaska
#6
In my humble opinion, those of us on the "not tin clad" side of the arguement don't really hear much anger at the actual perpetrators of the attacks (aka the terrorists) coming from the tin-clad side of the fence. Maybe I'm just reading and hearing what I want to hear, but it does seem like its "nevermind what the terrorists who killed all those people" it is more about blaming the victim.

So of course to us the arguement that it is our fault sounds similar to blaming a rape victim for dressing provocatively. Thats just an analogy..please save the "its not the same thing at all" arguement.. I know there is a lot of difference between rape and flying a 757 into a building..but the priniciple is the same.
 
Cosmo
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by thomaskaView Post

In my humble opinion, those of us on the "not tin clad" side of the arguement don't really hear much anger at the actual perpetrators of the attacks (aka the terrorists) coming from the tin-clad side of the fence. Maybe I'm just reading and hearing what I want to hear, but it does seem like its "nevermind what the terrorists who killed all those people" it is more about blaming the victim.

So of course to us the arguement that it is our fault sounds similar to blaming a rape victim for dressing provocatively. Thats just an analogy..please save the "its not the same thing at all" arguement.. I know there is a lot of difference between rape and flying a 757 into a building..but the priniciple is the same.

Religious fundies of any stripe are dangerous. I sorta figure that goes without saying. I don't know anyone who excuses the behaviour of the terrorists, Thomaska. No one I know supports their beliefs, methods or causes. It's not a question of blaming the victim, it's about taking care of business on our own doorstep.

There is little we can do about the extremists from other countries. We don't have the tools to influence them. What we do have control over is our own actions. Once we've cleaned our own back yard, then we can turn outward. The US government supplied arms to some of these countries before they changed alliances -- it's that sort of behaviour we need to address first.

Your comparison is not that far off. If you know a certain area of the city contains rapists, you don't go walking alone in a short skirt and heels. That's not blaming the victim, that's common sense. The world is what it is ... it may be unjust, wrong headed and unfair, but facts are facts. As a woman I use common sense and a measure of caution. As a nation, we need to do the same when there are crazies out there.

There's a big difference between backing down from the fight and being smart about waging our battles. First we need to protect ourselves and our governments have agendas that don't always put the people first. Point in fact ... look at how many US military people have been killed and how many terrorists has that stopped? The crazies still cling to their beliefs and as we eliminate one, three more pop up in the martyr's place. Current methods aren't working.

I just think there's a whole lot more going on than we are told about and that leaves us in a position of being uninformed. Without the truth, how can we fix the root of the problem? The problem being protecting ourselves from terrorists.
 
Sassylassie
#8
Cosmo wrote:
Sassy ... I'm a tin foil hat queen, a true believer that there is more than meets the eye whenever the government is involved, including 9-11. What I don't get is the correlation between those questions and the topic you bring up here.

The correlation is this Cosmo: The Tin Foilers have stated repeatedly that it was not planes that hit the Twin Towers but missles, the other half claim it was remote controled planes in both those scenerios there would of been no passengers or people involved. The above article clearly states that DNA of a crew member of Flight 11 was found at the Twin Towers. Clear enough for you? The planes existed and so did those who were slaughtered that day.

Cosmo wrote: Yes, real people died that day. I flipped on the TV before heading to work and spent that morning glued to it, tears running down my face. Once it became apparent what had happened, I was infuriated with a government that would set themselves up as a target. I was terrified thinking that the nearest thing I ever had to a son (my best friend's son) may be called to war because of this. The a**holes at the top of the political food chain are the ones who don't think about those being real people. And not just 9-11, but their foray into Iraq as well. I've seen photos that nearly made me throw up -- photos of REAL people. If you like I can send you a copy of the PowerPoint presentation for your perusal. It's about the torture of Iraqi captives.

I'm not the least bit angry with the US Government, the US did NOTHING to deserve the attack that the Arab Muslim Extremists perpetuated that day. I'm not in the habit of blaming the Victims (those who died on September 11) and that is what you just did. Muslim Extremist hate us for not being Muslims, I'm not a believer of the old adage of the Tin Foilers "Foreign Policy is at Fault" rubbish, garbage and again blaming the Victims of September 11 visa vie Bush. They hate us for being Free, everything else is just gravy and propaganda. Regarding Iraq I'm sorry but I don't see what correlation that has to with this topic i.e.
Iraq's invasion took place after September 11 so the Muslim Extremists can't wave that red herring around.

Cosmo Wrote: It's not the tin foil hat brigade you need to be addressing with your scorn. It's the ones calling the shots. Don't you see the irony of your accusations? The reason us silver clad warriors won't shut up is that behind the headlines are REAL people and we object to them being used as pawns in government games. It's not us that have forgotten that fact.

My scorn is directed at those who feel they can spread lies and propaganda around the world without a shread of evidence. Made up conspiracy theories, with two ounces of truth does not make it a more palatable lie. It's still propaganda and people suffer as a result of this miss information. I've never been a pawn, not to a Government or a Person. Cosmo you are the only Tin Foiler who has ever spoken aloud about the victims, the rest can't acknowledge those who died because "Real People" don't fit into their wild Conspiracy Theories.

tomaska once again you are bang on with your assessment of the topic. Blame the Victims visa vie Bush-Foreign Policy their list of offenses are endless and meaningless because they hate us for our freedom and that is what they wish to destroy. FREEDOM.
 
thomaska
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by CosmoView Post

Religious fundies of any stripe are dangerous. I sorta figure that goes without saying. I don't know anyone who excuses the behaviour of the terrorists, Thomaska. No one I know supports their beliefs, methods or causes. It's not a question of blaming the victim, it's about taking care of business on our own doorstep.
There is little we can do about the extremists from other countries. We don't have the tools to influence them. What we do have control over is our own actions. Once we've cleaned our own back yard, then we can turn outward. The US government supplied arms to some of these countries before they changed alliances -- it's that sort of behaviour we need to address first.
Your comparison is not that far off. If you know a certain area of the city contains rapists, you don't go walking alone in a short skirt and heels. That's not blaming the victim, that's common sense. The world is what it is ... it may be unjust, wrong headed and unfair, but facts are facts. As a woman I use common sense and a measure of caution. As a nation, we need to do the same when there are crazies out there.
There's a big difference between backing down from the fight and being smart about waging our battles. First we need to protect ourselves and our governments have agendas that don't always put the people first. Point in fact ... look at how many US military people have been killed and how many terrorists has that stopped? The crazies...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post

I'd be open to listening to the Democrats' solution to fixing things in the middle east. However, unless I've missed something, all the leading Dems say is "Iraq is a mess, let's get out". Fine by me, but when the sectarian violence sky-rockets after this tactic is used, the left will still blame the right for the whole mess. In fact, as a side note, one of the Dems criticisms of the war in Iraq is that we didn't send enough troops, but in the state I'm in, the political ads of one Dem congressman accuse his Republican opponent of wanting to send more troops. So what the phuck do they want? It seems like the Dems in America dont' know the difference between "come here" and "sic 'em"

After being there once, and making several notifications to families who have lost sons to the terrorists, I'd like our troops out asap. I still have friends there now, and everytime I see news that a Marine was killed I have to wonder if it was someone I know. But, as much as I want them to leave, I want them to leave in a manner that assures we don't have to go back. Because if we have to go back, it is going to be worse than it is now. My fear is that because of the majority of the people in Iraq being Shiite, as soon as we're gone Ahmadinnerjacket and the crazy mullah posse are going to move in, slaughter the sunni minority, and then we will have one HUGE Islamic republic full of people willing to blow themselves up en route to world domination.

So between the "cut and run" strategy, which only reinforces radical islams image of us as being soft, and the Dems penchant for taxing the ever living **** out of everyone in sight, I just don't think there is a way I could bring myself to want people like Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi to be in charge of the country.

But I do agree with you that we need to quit putting people like Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega, and all the other schmucks we've backed into positions of power when it suits us, and then acting shocked and awed when they turn around and bite us in the ***. I beleive there a parable about a frog helping a scorpion across a river that fits nicely here. But whats done is done, I can only hope that we can fix the situation and avoid sticking our hand back on the burner again. We should know that the burner is phucking hot by now.
 
jimmoyer
#10
Regarding the tin foil club:

I wonder (as I sit in the middle of this small town interesection in my saran-wrap lawn chair with
detachable home-made antenna wearing aluminum foil headware with earflaps) why skepticism
towards goverment goes hand in hand with gullible belief in any alternative ???

Is there a gullible hole in the tin foil headware these days ?

We aluminum foil headware gear people are skeptical, but I fear a gullibility tear in the material
somewhere.

If our headgear fully covers our cranium you would think we'd be consistently skeptical of everything,
from government to conspiracies to any alternative you can imagine.

Uh oh...

wait...

I hear something...
Last edited by jimmoyer; Nov 3rd, 2006 at 03:54 PM..
 
gopher
+1
#11  Top Rated Post
This is, I believe, the first time I heard anyone say that the WTC was hit by missiles rather than by airplanes. True, it has been alleged that a missile hit the Pentagon and there have been allegations of government coverups. But a missile hitting the WTC? That's new to me.

As for those who still insist that government coverup is an impossibility, I again challenge any of the reich wing tin foil/tin panty set to prove that the Pentagon Papers were fake. Even though I have made this challenge repeatedly none of those reichsters have answered the challenge while replying with hostile incoherencies that serve to prove that their claims are baseless.

One last note: rather than using this revelation in post # 1 as another means of self justification, we should use it to mourn the loss of another innocent person who was caught up in the politics of certain evildoers. As someone who worked in the WTC for over 13 years, I continue to mourn the loss of friends and coworkers because of the terrible events of 9/11. That is the proper attitude to take rather than using the news as another means to gloat over some argument.
 
jimmoyer
#12
The Pentagon Papers aren't fake.
Other conspiracies are.

Tricky isn't it ?

Aha...

another signal coming...

Hold the phone !!!
 
Nuggler
#13
I watched the towers getting hit by planes. Most people I know saw planes.

What kind of weed you growin down east there Sassie?? Must be good.

Pentagon, I heard rumours of could be missle. Discounted that as ravings, but, then again I lost my hat.

9/11 was 5 years ago. Time to move on, as right wing nutbars are so often quoted as saying.

I personally have too much respect for the people who lost their lives to get involved in this discussion.

Ugg; out.
 
Sassylassie
#14
Stop insulting me Ug or I will return the favor in spades. I wasn't the one who posted the bull**** on missles it was one of the many Tin Foilers that posted that little nugget not me. There have been numerous inane drivil posted about the Twin Towers not being hit by planes and none of it was posted by me. My response to Cosmo is called a Rebuttal.

The fact that you did respond in this post make you rather two faced and I don't care if September 11 was forty years ago I will continue to post what I "Want" to post. Find someone else to bully, I fight back.
 
Nuggler
#15
Geez Sassie, now ya got me all scared. You started the thread. I just said I was gone and wouldn't participate any more. Now that I'm back, guess I'm three-faced.

You can insult me till yer little face is all puffed up, red, sweaty, with tears runnin down and I won't give a shi*te. Far from me bullying, I have seen you diss people for a lot less than what I said, so I wouldn't expect anything better from you.

As far as postin what ya want; get right at er, no problem. I shall also. Free country. Well, sorta.

Rebuttal??? Mak'er good. I gots me tinfoil 'at on. An me rubber boots.

Nah, on second thought, say what ya will. Says a lot more about you than me. I shan't be respondin.

Ugg. (four-faced)
 
Curiosity
#16
OldNugly

Re-read Sassie's posts - you have misread and misinterpreted everything she has been saying here and for weeks prior on this topic.

I have no idea why you are riled at Sassy - she has been putting up topics which bear a close resemblence as many can get to the facts and truth of that tragedy.
 
Cosmo
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by SassylassieView Post

Stop insulting me Ug or I will return the favor in spades. I wasn't the one who posted the bull**** on missles it was one of the many Tin Foilers that posted that little nugget not me. There have been numerous inane drivil posted about the Twin Towers not being hit by planes and none of it was posted by me. My response to Cosmo is called a Rebuttal.

The fact that you did respond in this post make you rather two faced and I don't care if September 11 was forty years ago I will continue to post what I "Want" to post. Find someone else to bully, I fight back.

Sassy ... perhaps my tin foil hat is too tight, but I don't ever recall posting the kind of b.s. you're referring to. Planes flew into the Trade Centre. Saw em my own self. Never said it was anything else. Where did ya get the screwy idea I figured it was anything else??

As for insulting Ugg ... ya got more nerve than a bad tooth, girl. I happen to love him. If he were a chick and we were both single, I'd be chasing him around the net. Course we both be happily married and not built with matching parts, but it still bugs me when you go after folks. You seem to have this defensive posture that reminds me a lot of a tarantula ... little arms waving in the air, trying to look big and mean. Course ya do got a bit of a bite to ya as well which keeps folks who prefer not to get stung in line. Ugg and I got no sense that way.

At any rate, one of us is confused. I am a lifelong, card carrying member of the conspiracy theory club and I don't believe it was missiles. ~shrug~ Maybe I missed that newsletter.
 
Sassylassie
#18
No Cosmo you have been to busy attacking me and not bothering to read what the Conspiracy Theorist write on CC it was to them whom I started this topic not you. You aren't even a blip on my radar. If you are going to take the time to defend their position then please take the time to read the tripe they post here. I never accused you of stating the planes were missles but nice try Cosmo your Tin Foil isn't deflecting your Extreme Left leaning stance on this issue deflect and deflect and then attack. Try attacking my point of view (if you can) instead of me it's becoming old news and you are starting to look very childish. Regarding oldnug that is the second time he's attacked me without provacation, if he can't take it don't dish it out like a child and run away. As for the rest of your post I guess as per norm you like to think you are being clever and whitty, I suppose to the Tin Foil crowd you might be but then again they think Bush killed 3000 people on September 11 and not the Arab Muslim Extremists.

Curio thankyou but Oldnug has decided I'm a right wing neo con, perhaps he's correct I'd rather be a Con than a Extreme Left leaning Liberal without a spine, I have no desire to spend the rest of my life crawling to the welfare line demanding money so I can go to bingo, drink beer and buy cigs. I'd rather work for a living and not have a Nanny Government decided for me.
 
Toro
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by CosmoView Post

Sassy ... perhaps my tin foil hat is too tight, but I don't ever recall posting the kind of b.s. you're referring to. Planes flew into the Trade Centre. Saw em my own self. Never said it was anything else. Where did ya get the screwy idea I figured it was anything else??

Well, I would say that this really isn't directed to you Cosmo. Rather, people here have stated that the buildings were brought down by explosives.
 
Cosmo
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by ToroView Post

Well, I would say that this really isn't directed to you Cosmo. Rather, people here have stated that the buildings were brought down by explosives.

What???? It's not all about me??? Damn!

Yer probably right, Toro ... I just like to give Sassy a nudge now and then.
 
blogbart
#21
The lunatic straw men fringe are out of their cages I see. Obviously, whoever started this thread doesn't have the slightest clue of what they are talking about because any reasonable person would understand that serious 911 Truth advocates are not questioning whether or not planes hit the WTC.

Yes, sadly remains of victims of the heinous acts perpetrated on Sept 11 2001 are still to be found. And, yes, sadder still is that the remains are of people on the jets crashed into the towers who may not have had to die if the government agencies had taken precautions against the widely known and credible threats that airliners were going to be used in some type of attack in and about the time frame of 911. But for some reason, all those trying to get this information out were stymied from the highest levels of government.
 
wallyj
#22
I have not replied to any CT's for a while now because it is so frustrating.Every time one of thier pet theories is shown to be a sham they reply with another. It is negative thinking in more ways than one.If you cannot prove the gov't was not behind the attacks then they must have been. My sister lost someone close to her that day.It makes my blood boil to hear this gov't conspiracy crap go on and on.THE MOFO"S THAT HATE US DID IT AND THEY WILL DO IT AGAIN UNLESS THEY ARE STOPPED NOW> YOU A_HOLES THAT EXCUSE THIER MURDEROUS WAYS ARE NOT ANY BETTER> ON BEHALF OF EVERYONE WHO CARES ABOUT LIFE AND FREEDOM<GO F**K YOURSELVES>. You do not deserve the right to speak your mind because you do not appreciate it.
 
Cosmo
#23
wallyj ... feel better now that you got that out?

What are you so pissed off about? We all have a right to an opinion and a right to state that opinion. Nobody says you have to agree with everything you read here ... in fact it is HIGHLY recommended that you do NOT. Make up your own mind. We're all grown ups and capable of separating the chaff from the grain. Well, most of us, at least.

No one has disrespected the victims of 9-11 -- at least not in any thread I've read. Seems that is the one thing we all agree on ... tin foil hatters, lefties, righties, neo-cons ... the loss of life in that act of terrorism was tragic. Period. No one is arguing that.

I think, though, that a discussion of how something like that could be avoided in future is a productive conversation. That's where the differences lie ... in our view of how to prevent it from happening again. I'm not of the "kill em all and let god sort em out" school -- or at least not when it comes to entire socieities. I don't think the innocent should be picking up the tab for the crazies. It seems to me that the real topic is about how to stop the madness without forgetting the folks that died.
 
wallyj
#24
Everytime someone blames the states about 9/11 instead of the murderers that did this it is showing disrespect. You are saying that it was a tragedy and everyone agrees.. How would you feel if your mum was butchered and the person that did it was homeless and then someone came up to you and said " Hey this is why we should support the NDP? You are a conservative so it is your fault,maybe Harper did it to instigate a crackdown on the homeless." We can avoid this in the future by education and by recognizing that there are evil people in the world,not by wishing everyone was like me.
 
gopher
+1
#25
Perhaps it would alleviate some of the argument here if someone could show just who precisely said that the WTC was taken down by a missile. I looked but couldn't find any such allegation by anyone here.
 
blogbart
#26
Quote:

Everytime someone blames the states about 9/11 instead of the murderers that did this it is showing disrespect. You are saying that it was a tragedy and everyone agrees.. How would you feel if your mum was butchered and the person that did it was homeless and then someone came up to you and said " Hey this is why we should support the NDP? You are a conservative so it is your fault,maybe Harper did it to instigate a crackdown on the homeless." We can avoid this in the future by education and by recognizing that there are evil people in the world,not by wishing everyone was like me.

It makes MY blood boil to listen to people like you lump everything into one big ball and label it "conspiracy theory".

wallyj, if you pay attention to what the serious 911 Truth movement has to say, you will understand that they are not absolving the 19 purported hijackers of their complicity in the event. They were recruited, trained and used in the attacks. I for one, am happy that they died in the attacks. However, even if you can't get your head around WTC controlled demolitions, why aren't you all over the well documented official obfuscation and protection of the hijackers prior to the event and the lack of appropriate warnings about these well known and serious threats of terrorists using planes and/or planning to attack, as then CIA Director George Tenant said "the system was blinking red". For crying out loud, Bush had NIE that was titled "Bin Laden determined to attack inside US". If nothing else your outrage should be directed at the people in the US government who were in a position to have done something that may have prevented the attacks from happening. But there is lots of information that they let it slide to get what they wanted, a terrorist attack which would help launch their aggressive agenda.

I believe that there was more than just letting it happen, because there are so many unanswered questions about links of the hijackers to US military, to CIA and Pak intelligence. The Bin Laden relationship to the Bushes and Saudi gov has just been swept under the rug. The fact that FBI, CIA whistleblowers were all shut down, fired and hung out to dry for trying to bring the threat to attention, that the response on 911 was so poor, that Cheney and military brass have been caught in lies about where they were and what they were doing, Bush's absurd behaviour in Florida reading the Pet Goat book, it goes on and on .... and your blood boils because people dare to point out these things?

If your indigation is in earnest, I urge you in the strongest possible way to forget about WTC controlled demolitions and dig into the rest of it. Even if the US administratiuon, government, intelligence agences and military were all so utterly incompetent before and on 911, then your outrage should be directed at them, because by all accounts and from what we've seen they are still as incompetent.
 

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