What its like in Afghanistan


CDNBear
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by SassylassieView Post

Yes I know that Easty but the ROEs were extremely strict on the use of a side arm. I had a loved one serve under the UN mandate. Remember they can't piss without the Media reporting it, after Somalia second guessing became second nature.

After Somolia, the liberals killed our Army when they disbanded Canada's best, her now Bastard Sons. Don't get me started.
 
Sassylassie
#32
My RealEstate Agent was a member of the Air Borne (I spelled it wrong didn't I) and what a great lad. He's building a boat in his basement, yep a sail boat. He reminds of Mark Harmen of Navy NCIS, oops it's coming on in five minutes gotta run.
 
CDNBear
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by SassylassieView Post

My RealEstate Agent was a member of the Air Borne (I spelled it wrong didn't I) and what a great lad. He's building a boat in his basement, yep a sail boat. He reminds of Mark Harmen of Navy NCIS, oops it's coming on in five minutes gotta run.

Go Airborne or go home.
 
Boxcar
#34
My father spent 28 years in the airforce in the 50s they used the Aircrew as jump masters on one exercies near Quebec City a young trooper froze and grabed the static line. He had to cut the line and watch him fall to his death. That image never left him.
He served in the Gaza in 1956 where they awoke on the morning to find the sentries with their throats cut, and they came under sniper fire. This was peacekeeping.
As a kid I remember as his whole crew waited in our kitchen for word of another crew whose Herc had gone down.
I think of the families as I can only imagine what my own mother went through when he was away often for 6 months or more. It is not only the soldier but his family that are making a sacrifice. You insult them as well.
 
fuzzylogix
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

You've insulted me.

Therefore by a law of averages you have likely insulted at least a couple thousand Soldiers and Vets.

As an ex Soldier, I can assure you a very good part of my time was spent in training to do just such tasks.

And it was my pleasure to train hard and do my duty to make sure if your neighbourhood was the victim of some natural dissaster, I would be able to, just like the brave men and women you scorn today, come to your rescue.

But if you feel so passionately that your position is that much more important, please feel free to decline our services on your roof top, or in your basement. That is your right.

As I said, I am proud of any soldier who uses their skills to the defence of the country and the help of its citizens. If your work falls into this category, then how have I insulted you?
 
fuzzylogix
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by EastSideScotianView Post

WRONG....
Iam Insulted.
Soldiers, weather you agree witht he Mission or not, do a duty for the world, and are. Regardless of your belif, they are doing Good for Afganistan. Since when did helping make a country against some heavy odds a democratic and free nation become wrong....Now I guess you could be a bush basher...But this is a UN Mandate, which Canada under NATO is serving. The UN...Need I say more?
Soldiers are making it possible for their to be reconstruction, and tokeep as many people as they can safe...now they cant keep evryone safe, but I asure you its much safer than the all out Civil war that would take place if we left. If we didnt go in, in the first place it would still be a terrorist stronghold...you cant argue that it wouldnt be. Canada is building schools, and protecting villiages. If you havent noticed Kandahar has been pretty quite lately, since Canada got in there....and already big bissness from world corperations are begining to invest. Thats not good? Please...
Soldiers takepart in many good things, Peacekeeping, and defence of national and world Interest....and Occasionaly offense when needed...theyput their lives on the line...which in itself is a selfless act.
If you dont have respect for the mission, atleast respect the men who work it.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Soldiers do a job, a job in which in Canada, thankfully, they have chosen, and not been forced into.
And they earn respect and thanks according to their actions in their job, not just for the fact that they are a soldier. I have never said that soldiers dont help in true peacekeeping and service to the community.
They are not the only people who choose to do dangerous life threatening jobs.
They are not the only people who choose to do jobs that may require decisions in the heat of the moment that may be the wrong decisions.
They are not the only people in jobs where they may have to face the decision of going against an order that they think is morally wrong.

And just as we are thankful that people have chosen to be firemen, policemen, construction workers, janitors, doctors or lawyers, we are thankful that people have chosen to be soldiers.

But, just as we judge the actions of firemen, policemen, construction workers, janitors, doctors or lawyers, we judge the actions of soldiers. Because doing a dangerous job, or a difficult job, or a morally debatable job does not give one the right to do whatever we want. All jobs are answerable to the public.

In Canada, we have a democracy, and that means we may speak out against actions committed by public or private servants. In speaking out, we are not insulting the job, we are voicing our moral judgements on the actions of the employee.
 
CDNBear
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by fuzzylogixView Post

Soldiers do a job, a job in which in Canada, thankfully, they have chosen, and not been forced into.
And they earn respect and thanks according to their actions in their job, not just for the fact that they are a soldier. I have never said that soldiers dont help in true peacekeeping and service to the community.
They are not the only people who choose to do dangerous life threatening jobs.
They are not the only people who choose to do jobs that may require decisions in the heat of the moment that may be the wrong decisions.
They are not the only people in jobs where they may have to face the decision of going against an order that they think is morally wrong.

And just as we are thankful that people have chosen to be firemen, policemen, construction workers, janitors, doctors or lawyers, we are thankful that people have chosen to be soldiers.

But, just as we judge the actions of firemen, policemen, construction workers, janitors, doctors or lawyers, we judge the actions of soldiers. Because doing a dangerous job, or a difficult job, or a morally debatable job does not give one the right to do whatever we want. All jobs are answerable to the public.

In Canada, we have a democracy, and that means we may speak out against actions committed by public or private servants. In speaking out, we are not insulting the job, we are voicing our moral judgements on the actions of the employee.

I'll have to double check this, but I'm pretty sure all the Soldiers going to Afghanistan are voluntarily going. So once again you would be wrong.
 
Dixie Cup
#38
A few years ago, I read in the Readers Digest, the experience of women living under the Taliban in Afganistan. I was mortified at what was happening over there. Not unlike Rwanda, why wasn't the world doing something?? How could we, in good conscience turn a blind eye?? Unfortunately, the world only responded after 911. That it took such a tragidy before anyone responded is disgusting. (The fact the world did nothing in Rwanda was reprehensible as well).

I really want to know what other alternatives there are in assisting all the innocent civilians, mostly women and female children who are denied the basic human rights that we supposidly cherish. I want our troops to come home safe too so how can that happen without abandoning the Afgans? How can schools, hospitals, homes and businesses be built when there are those determined to destroy them? How do we communicate with Taliban and Al-qeda who rationalize all that they do on some abstract religious ideology?

So, Cortex, what would you have us do?? Do you believe, like Mr. Layton, that discussion and diplomacy would change things and make them better for all Afganistans? You would pull our troops out of Afganistan and then what?? We do nothing? What, realistically, is the alternative?? I believe the world has some responsibility in aiding others, but because there are groups who do not believe as we do and prefer to kill those who don't believe as they do, we do.....nothing...... because it might involve violence?? Help me with this.....
 
Dixie Cup
#39
fuzzylogix: you, too, can answer my questions. I'd be very interested.
 
fuzzylogix
#40
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I'll have to double check this, but I'm pretty sure all the Soldiers going to Afghanistan are voluntarily going. So once again you would be wrong.

Once again you should read posts carefully CdnBear. Where on earth do I say that soldiers going to Afghanistan are not going voluntarily??? Really, if you are going to critique someone's post, read it.
 
CDNBear
#41
My bad I miss read your post.
 
fuzzylogix
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie CupView Post

fuzzylogix: you, too, can answer my questions. I'd be very interested.

Afghanistan was not entered in order to rout the Taliban. It was entered to supposedly find Osama and his cronies and get rid of them. Only now, when things have been disrupted there, are we told that in fact the whole purpose of the war is to get rid of the Taliban because they are are a dictatorial government. But before 9/11, the US had been dealing with the Taliban, in fact organizing a gas pipeline with them.

The war now isnt even about the Taliban anymore. It is about controlling a country which through no fault of its own happens to lie in a strategic part of the world. Afghanistan's entire history has been one of invaders coming to take it over and then rival factions within the country vying for control.

And Canada and the US will find out as did England and the USSR previously that it is not easy to come in and control another country. While you may do some good somewhere such as building a school or homes, the reality is that you create such an unstable society that the population ends up with a civil war and the people resent your intrusion and disruption of their lives.

And so now we enter the "entrenched" phase where we pour more and more money into the country and end up with more and more of it being used for destruction and not construction. There is no easy solution to war. This war will burn itself out in ten or so years, like Vietnam, when we realize we cant win and we decide to leave. We cant fight the Taliban- they are being supplied with weapons by people who rejoice in the chance to make a profit. And even if we do defeat the Taliban, there will then be another faction emerge as the "enemy".

As long as an arms sales are an economic priority to many countries, there is little hope that war will be based on helping other countries attain democracy.
 
Sassylassie
#43
Fuzzy wrote: And Canada and the US will find out as did England and the USSR previously that it is not easy to come in and control another country. While you may do some good somewhere such as building a school or homes, the reality is that you create such an unstable society that the population ends up with a civil war and the people resent your intrusion and disruption of their lives.

We are not controlling another country Fuzzy we were asked to be there, also Afghanistan's people repeatedly ask us to stay. Canada's role is fluid and evolving now it appears we are helping the two warring fractions decide where this country will go politically. If the Afghanies want us to leave Canada would, however it's the Peaceniks that want us to leave not the Afghanie people.
 
CDNBear
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by SassylassieView Post

Fuzzy wrote: And Canada and the US will find out as did England and the USSR previously that it is not easy to come in and control another country. While you may do some good somewhere such as building a school or homes, the reality is that you create such an unstable society that the population ends up with a civil war and the people resent your intrusion and disruption of their lives.

We are not controlling another country Fuzzy we were asked to be there, also Afghanistan's people repeatedly ask us to stay. Canada's role is fluid and evolving now it appears we are helping the two warring fractions decide where this country will go politically. If the Afghanies want us to leave Canada would, however it's the Peaceniks that want us to leave not the Afghanie people.

Absolutely Sass, but more importantly. We are not there to impliment communism or install a totally foriegn style of government, run completely by foriegners. It is an Afghan government, with Afghan's in charge. Albeit, it may be a puppet state, but we are not doing what Russia did.
 
fuzzylogix
#45
So we are in Afghanistan to help???

Then :
1.why are we not addressing the fact that the 60% of the current Afghani legislative body that we are collaborating with and setting up as the future of the country consist of corrupt individuals allied to warlords and militia that have as bad human rights records as the Taliban. Canada states that it is fighting to get rid of the Taliban, but the government it is helping instate is no better. Abuses against women continue in the country.

2. why are we not helping the economy which has crashed since ousting of the Taliban. The Taliban had managed to rid the country of its drug production, but since the Taliban was ousted and the war started the country's main economic source is again opium and heroin. And where the British have gone in and destroyed fields of poppies, farmers who lost their incomes have had to sell their daughters to the druglords. Many of the current legislative body are druglords.

3. why are we not ensuring that when an individual is captured and handed over to the Afghani authority that the individual is not tortured. Why are you not given accurate figures of civilian death?

The fact is, there ARE ulterior motives in Afghanistan. A US study done by the US Trade and Development over the past four years has assessed that the oil and gas reserves in Northern Afghanistan are up to 18 times more than originally thought.

Also, Canada is currently (and was involved before the war) in negotiations with Turkmenistan to run a gasline from there across Afghanistan to Pakistan. Turkmenistan has a human rights record that is far more oppressive than the Taliban, and yet you dont see our troops in there trying to bring the people a better life. And we wont, as long as Turkmenistan cooperates with us.

Who is profiting from the war? Why all the companies such as General Dynamics and Airbus Military who are getting big contracts. Lockheed and Boeing are fighting it out for the juicy bits. And I am sure it hasnt hurt them that the Defense Minister Gordon O'Connor is a former lobbyist for the big military contractors!!!


Will we succeed? Britain tried three times.
USSR failed after killing one million people and displacing five million more, despite having tens of thousands of troops.

Good luck to our 2200.
 
CDNBear
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by fuzzylogixView Post

So we are in Afghanistan to help???
Then :
1.why are we not addressing the fact that the 60% of the current Afghani legislative body that we are collaborating with and setting up as the future of the country consist of corrupt individuals allied to warlords and militia that have as bad human rights records as the Taliban. Canada states that it is fighting to get rid of the Taliban, but the government it is helping instate is no better. Abuses against women continue in the country.
2. why are we not helping the economy which has crashed since ousting of the Taliban. The Taliban had managed to rid the country of its drug production, but since the Taliban was ousted and the war started the country's main economic source is again opium and heroin. And where the British have gone in and destroyed fields of poppies, farmers who lost their incomes have had to sell their daughters to the druglords. Many of the current legislative body are druglords.
3. why are we not ensuring that when an individual is captured and handed over to the Afghani authority that the individual is not tortured. Why are you not given accurate figures of civilian death?
The fact is, there ARE ulterior motives in Afghanistan. A US study done by the US Trade and Development over the past four years has assessed that the oil and gas reserves in Northern Afghanistan are up to 18 times more than originally thought.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Can you back any of that up. Because I can actually post proof of the opposite of most of what you just claimed in your opinion piece.
 
Tonington
#47
The Poppy problem, with the right control system could help Afghanies rather than harm them. If they were granted preferential trade arrangements for their opium, as they can produce the most, it could be sold as "Afghanistan Medicine" brand. There are groups out there who are currently working on this option, and making these recommendations.
 
CDNBear
#48
I didn't think so, thanx for coming out fuzzy.
 
EastSideScotian
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I didn't think so, thanx for coming out fuzzy.

seems like Aoen had some influance on him....I dont know about you but Id try not to argue what past 16 year old members have argued. Also all of your comments have no proof fuzz......
 
fuzzylogix
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I didn't think so, thanx for coming out fuzzy.

Actually, Bear, I thought you were joking. After all, all of my statements are not secrets, and have been well reported in the news for anyone who reads more than headlines. I am not sure which of my statements you consider are abominable lies, so I will address them as such:

1. corruption in Afghani legislature:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6045082.stm (external - login to view)

2. continued violence against women in Afghanistan:

www.truthout.org/issues_06/110106WB.shtml (external - login to view)

3. Turkmenistan corruption:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_r...n_Turkmenistan (external - login to view)

4. Canada and Turkmenistan gas:

www.acp-cpa.ca/en/Afghanistanfactsheet.pdf (external - login to view)

5. Drugs in Afghanistan:

www.unis.unvienna.org/unis/pr...nisnar867.html (external - login to view)

6. Prisoner conditions in Afghanistan:

www.zmag.org/content/showarti...m?ItemID=11168 (external - login to view)


I'll leave you to verfiy the stuff about the war minister.
Last edited by fuzzylogix; Nov 14th, 2006 at 04:59 PM..
 
fuzzylogix
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by EastSideScotianView Post

seems like Aoen had some influance on him....I dont know about you but Id try not to argue what past 16 year old members have argued. Also all of your comments have no proof fuzz......

Ditto and its a her.
 
CDNBear
#52
I was going to post a couple links to sites that have info posted right from the Soldiers in Afghanistan, as well as reporting from Afghanistan on the agricultural investment by both the Canadian Government with field support of the Troops. Plus the kudos we keep getting for those efforts, but then I realized, there was no point.

You are a bigot and nothing I waste my time posting is going to change your mind or soften your view of my brothers, sisters and friends in Afghanistan. I hope one day you see the error in you views and change yourself. Because you are missing so much of life because of it.
 
fuzzylogix
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I was going to post a couple links to sites that have info posted right from the Soldiers in Afghanistan, as well as reporting from Afghanistan on the agricultural investment by both the Canadian Government with field support of the Troops. Plus the kudos we keep getting for those efforts, but then I realized, there was no point.

You are a bigot and nothing I waste my time posting is going to change your mind or soften your view of my brothers, sisters and friends in Afghanistan. I hope one day you see the error in you views and change yourself. Because you are missing so much of life because of it.

A bigot?

Quite the opposite.

I care about ALL sides in a war, not just the side that happens to be Canadian.

This is not bigoted towards our troops. That is rubbish.
I care about our armed forces. I care that they come home alive. I care that they arent put in harms way without a good reason. And I care that they do work that is constructive and not destructive.

You asked me to quote some sources to back up my statements and I have. I guess now you have to resort to calling me names as your rebuttal.
 
CDNBear
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by fuzzylogixView Post

A bigot?

Quite the opposite.

I care about ALL sides in a war, not just the side that happens to be Canadian.

This is not bigoted towards our troops. That is rubbish.
I care about our armed forces. I care that they come home alive. I care that they arent put in harms way without a good reason. And I care that they do work that is constructive and not destructive.

You asked me to quote some sources to back up my statements and I have. I guess now you have to resort to calling me names as your rebuttal.

Actually, I would like to apologise to you, I thought you were logic 7, I am really sorry. I hope you can forgive me? If some one thought I was logic7, I would be miffed eternaly.
 
CDNBear
#55
geo.international.gc.ca/cip-p...hefield-en.asp (external - login to view)

Seeing as you are not logic 7, here ya go. There's one, if ya actually want more, just ask.
 
Dixie Cup
#56
Fuzzy: Okay, so you don't believe the original reason for going into Afghanistan, but even if you are right in saying that the initial reason for going is wrong, I would argue that I am glad we did and I go back to my previous post - we have a responsibility, as a country, to humanity. I think we can do good there but it's going to take a long, long time.

Are there problems with their government?? Absolutely. But we abandon the people because of this?? Absolutely not! We educate, teach and show them how it could work by giving Afghans the power to make the changes they need.

I also think that the Americans are taking the wrong road in destroying poppy fields. They'll just anger the population whose only source of income comes from those fields. I just read an article that someone had written about this very issue. Why couldn't these poppy fields be harvested and sold to the various drug companies of the world. Could the drug companies not use this to make other drugs to benefit humankind?? Kinda makes sense to me. Why not take the drug lords right out of the picture?? May be simplistic but wouldn't it be worth a try??

JMO
 

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