Rwandan Genocide was committed by Christians??


Researcher87
#1
Oh no, not Christians with their love thy neighbor and all that sweet jazz and stuff. Well I am sorry Christian lovers, but the majority of Rwanda is Christian so even though it was mostly done on an ethnic level which basically was based on one group of people being liked by the Belgian (buggers) over another, and even more important aspects;

Christian teaching didn't really help them:

This is Rwanda Stats
and no they have not changed that much in 12 years, in the religion category I mean.

Population: 8,648,248
note: estimates for this country explicitly take into account the effects of excess mortality due to AIDS (external - login to view); this can result in lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality (external - login to view) and death rates, lower population and growth rates, and changes in the distribution of population by age and sex than would otherwise be expected (July 2006 est.)
Age structure:
0-14 years: 41.9% (male 1,558,730; female 1,548,175)
15-64 years: 55.6% (male 1,943,268; female 1,971,542)
65 years and over: 2.5% (male 83,699; female 123,715) (2006 est.)
Population growth rate: 2.43% (2006 est.)
Birth rate: 40.37 births/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Death rate: 16.09 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Net migration rate: 0 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.03 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.01 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 0.99 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.67 male(s)/female
total population: 0.99 male(s)/female (2006 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 89.61 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
male: 94.71 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 84.34 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 47.3 years
male: 46.26 years
female: 48.38 years (2006 est.)
Total fertility rate: 5.43 children born/woman (2006 est.)
Nationality:
noun: Rwandan(s)
adjective: Rwandan
Ethnic groups: Hutu 84%, Tutsi 15%, Twa (Pygmoid) 1%, 16,000 South Asians (mostly Indians) Arabs 9,300, French 2,500, British 300, Belgian 100
Religions: Roman Catholic 56.5%, Protestant 26%, Adventist 11.1%, Muslim 4.6%, indigenous beliefs 0.1%, none 1.7% (2001)
Languages: Kinyarwanda (external - login to view) (official) universal Bantu vernacular, French (external - login to view) (official), English (external - login to view) (official), Kiswahili (Swahili) used in commercial centers
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 70.4%
male: 76.3%
female: 64.7% (2003 est.)
 
I think not
#2
Mmmmkay. Now show us those who did the killing, did so in the name of Christ.
 
Andem
#3
It's also a continent without their own written history. Get over it.
 
gc
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by I think notView Post

Mmmmkay. Now show us those who did the killing, did so in the name of Christ.

Does motivation matter?
 
gopher
+1
#5  Top Rated Post
From wikipedia:


Reports of outrageous exploitation and widespread human rights (external - login to view) abuses (including enslavement (external - login to view) and mutilation (external - login to view) of the native population), especially in the rubber (external - login to view) industry, led to an international protest movement in the early 1900s. Forced labor was extorted from the natives. Estimates of the death toll range from 5 to 15 million (for further detail, see Congo Free State (external - login to view) ([1] (external - login to view)) and many historians consider the atrocities to have constituted a genocide (external - login to view).
Finally, in 1908, the Belgian parliament (external - login to view) compelled the King to cede the Congo Free State to Belgium. Historians of the period tend to take a very dim view of Leopold, due to the mass killings and human rights abuses that took place in the Congo: one British historian has said that he "was an Attila in modern dress, and it would have been better for the world if he had never been born". Emperor Franz Joseph (external - login to view) of Austria-Hungary (external - login to view) once described his fellow ruler as a "thoroughly bad man".
Missionary John Harris of Baringa (external - login to view), for example, was so shocked by what he had come across that he felt moved to write a letter to Leopold's chief agent in the Congo:
"I have just returned from a journey inland to the village of Insongo Mboyo. The abject misery and utter abandon is positively indescribable...






How terrible of that Muslim tyrant to do that to innocent pagans (non-Abrahamics). No wait --- King Leopold was Christian!


Naughty, naughty!!!
 
Colpy
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by I think notView Post

Mmmmkay. Now show us those who did the killing, did so in the name of Christ.

Exactly......to say nothing of the fact that Christian clergy were slaughtered.............

The problem is that the Koran explicitly orders jihad ......while the Christian New Testament has no such passages. Twist as you will, lefties, you can't change that.

Folks claiming to be Christian have done much evil, but it is easy to show they are simply NOT Christian by comparing their words and actions against those of Christ.

Muslims have done much evil, but it is much more difficult to distinquish between the actions of Muslims and the words and actions of Mohammed.

Mohammed was a warrior who conquered much territory, putting pagans to death.

How much did Christ conquer? Who did Christ kill? No one, in fact he defended an adulteress about to be stoned, and healed a soldier sent to arrest him that was attacked by one of his followers.

WHICH is the religion of peace?

Try as you might, Gopher et. al. you can't cover up the philosophical and theological gap between Christ and Mohammed.
 
gc
#7
Just because it's in the Quran, doesn't mean people will follow it. Not everyone is a literalist.
There are passages in the Old Testament about killing non-believers as well.

Just because it's written, doesn't mean it will be followed. The New Testament speaks about forgiveness and loving your enemy. How many Christians would honestly say that they "love" Bin Laden? A few perhaps, but probably not very many.
 
the caracal kid
#8
"The problem is that the Koran explicitly orders jihad "

It looks like somebody skipped their "introduction to islam" course while in school.

The Koran allows for defense, not offense. The reason for this doctorine can be traced back to the socio/cultural conditions of the time. (cough cough... a certian christian group was involved)
 
I think not
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kidView Post

The Koran allows for defense, not offense.

"I was ordered to fight all men until they say `There is no God but Allah' " - Prophet Muhammad 632AD.
 
ottawabill
#10
unfortunately our Old testament basically says the same thing....God uses armys to kill (completely whipout) cities where they do no pray to him or they pray to idols.

With that said..Jesus did away with all that and said love thy neighbour, and turn the other cheek. So yes there is somewhat of a conflict there.

But more to my point, people create wars, people murder, not religons, they may do it in the name of God but it really has nothing to do with it. My faith is a personal one, if someone whats to know about it I am happy to tell them, but to kill them because they don't believe? I don't think so!!!

Go ask a moderate Muslim the same thing and hear how his faith has also been taken over by powerful violent men!!
 
gopher
+1
#11
the Christian New Testament has no such passages. Twist as you will, lefties, you can't change that.

Folks claiming to be Christian have done much evil, but it is easy to show they are simply NOT Christian by comparing their words and actions against those of Christ.




Very well -- then tell Bush to withdraw from Iraq-Afghanistan and to remember that as a Christian who said he was ordered by God to invade that the proper thing to do was to "turn the other cheek, to forgive, and to forget" those transgression against him or whomever.

While you are at it, tell those same words to the so-called Christians here who continually demand war but who refuse to fight it.

Let's see you and the other "Christians" actually practice Jesus's teachings rather than profaning it as you always do.
 
ottawabill
#12
Boy you don't know me do you???

All I did was admit there is text in the old testament that is a bit gruesome, and that Christainity says don't force people to change by war but rather change by seeing you actions. I wrote this satement in response to text above talking about religiuos wars to covert people..period!!


People will forever use a faith to justify their position when there is nothing else. But they are using the faith, watering it down in the eyes of others.

Truthfully we should be in more places in the world not less. A stong military should be used to stop morons from eating each other..i.e. Iraq, Afgahanstan, Chad, Rwanda etc.

Unfortunately, we are not a Christain society as the Muslims would make us out to be, It's more of a secular society with some faith, but we NEED to to what is right when we see a wrong...hence going to war at times
 
earth_as_one
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Exactly......to say nothing of the fact that Christian clergy were slaughtered.............

The problem is that the Koran explicitly orders jihad ......while the Christian New Testament has no such passages. Twist as you will, lefties, you can't change that.

Folks claiming to be Christian have done much evil, but it is easy to show they are simply NOT Christian by comparing their words and actions against those of Christ.

Muslims have done much evil, but it is much more difficult to distinquish between the actions of Muslims and the words and actions of Mohammed.

Mohammed was a warrior who conquered much territory, putting pagans to death.

How much did Christ conquer? Who did Christ kill? No one, in fact he defended an adulteress about to be stoned, and healed a soldier sent to arrest him that was attacked by one of his followers.

WHICH is the religion of peace?

Try as you might, Gopher et. al. you can't cover up the philosophical and theological gap between Christ and Mohammed.

You have a common misperception of Jihad. The definition of Jihad according to Muslim scholars does not mean holy war.

Jihad: The struggle/effort to improve yourself/the world to please God.

Jihad could involve warfare, but Jihad itself does not mean "holy war".

Examples of Jihad:

A personal struggle to overcome a drug addition
Attending University
Studying the Qu'ran
Liberating the oppressed
Eliminating poverty

Quote:

Muslim intellectuals need to show that our struggle in the present-day has more to do with striving for economic development, modernisation and the creation of civil society.
The Evolution of 'Jihad' in Islamist Political Discourse
6/6/2003 - Religious Political - Article Ref: IV0306-1994
By: Farish A. Noor
Iviews* -
Islamist discourse, like any other political discourse, is full of plastic concepts and ideas that are meant to serve politically utilitarian and instrumental purposes. But what is important for us to remember is that the instrumental use of such plastic concepts (including 'democracy', 'human rights', 'justice', etc.) invariably leads to their contestation as well, as they come to serve as tools for political mobilization....

Quote has been trimmed


 
Colpy
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

the Christian New Testament has no such passages. Twist as you will, lefties, you can't change that.

Folks claiming to be Christian have done much evil, but it is easy to show they are simply NOT Christian by comparing their words and actions against those of Christ.



Very well -- then tell Bush to withdraw from Iraq-Afghanistan and to remember that as a Christian who said he was ordered by God to invade that the proper thing to do was to "turn the other cheek, to forgive, and to forget" those transgression against him or whomever.

While you are at it, tell those same words to the so-called Christians here who continually demand war but who refuse to fight it.

Let's see you and the other "Christians" actually practice Jesus's teachings rather than profaning it as you always do.

Now here, at least, you have a valid argument.

One of the things that does bother me about Bush is I get the feeling he really does believe he is annointed by God, and that is scary stuff.
 
Colpy
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

You have a common misperception of Jihad. The definition of Jihad according to Muslim scholars does not mean holy war.

Jihad: The struggle/effort to improve yourself/the world to please God.

Jihad could involve warfare, but Jihad itself does not mean "holy war".

Examples of Jihad:

A personal struggle to overcome a drug addition
Attending University
Studying the Qu'ran
Liberating the oppressed
Eliminating poverty

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Sorry, E-A-O. This doesn't cut it. Excerpts from the Koran explicitly command attacks on non-believers, without reference to Jihad.

Twist as you will, you can't change the facts.
 
the caracal kid
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by I think notView Post

"I was ordered to fight all men until they say `There is no God but Allah' " - Prophet Muhammad 632AD.

Lets not play the quote game, alright? I think you and I are both well enough aware of the literal quotes involoving violence/aggression/warfare in the torah, bible, and koran. (its the old game of a member of any one of these three can not really condemn one of the others without condemning his/her own)

To answer your question on the condtions of warfare, here is a small summary:

Quote:


The Historic Context and the Nature of the Holy Quran
The Holy Quran comprises of revelations from God to Prophet Muhammad over a period of twenty three years (610 C.E. 632 C.E.). The first 13 years of the prophethood of Muhammad were at his hometown of Makkah (Mecca), where he and his fellow Muslims were severely persecuted by the pagans of Makkah. During that time, Muslims were not ordered to fight back, but bear the persecutions. Finally, God ordered the Prophet and his fellow Muslims (known as Sahabah) to emigrate to the city of Madinah, about 400 kilometers away.
This emigration, known as the Hijrah, marked the beginning of an Islamic society in Madinah, in which the Prophet became the head of the state. It was not long before the polytheists of Makkah marched towards Madinah to wage war against Muslims and destroy the Islamic state of Madinah. This battle is known as the Battle of Badr. The verses 2.190-2.194, above were perhaps the first injunctions from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for fighting. It was obviously a war in the defense of their homeland and their Faith.
In verse 2.190, God instructs Muslims to fight back, but not to transgress, and remain just even during the battle. "They are told that material interests should not be the motivation for their fighting, that they should not take up arms against those were not in opposition to the true faith, that they should not resort to...

Quote has been trimmed
from: www.islam101.com/terror/quranWPJ.htm (external - login to view)
 
ottawabill
#17
holy books are forever taken out of context....

Even since chapters and verses were added (once it was just one big book) you could pull out one that fits and leave the rest behind....

I wonder how many in and religion have read their Holy Book cover to cover? I started the Bible last spring..still working on it but I have been pleased , shocked, discusted , and amazed, where before I thought everything was pleasant and wonderful in the Bible....hasn't changed my faith but opened my eyes..
 
Sassylassie
#18
The bible versus the Koran is a mute argument, 200-2000 years ago Christians were invaders of other Nations today we are a civilised society that respects all religions including Islam, hindu, wicca, the church of the rising sun. It doens't matter in the West we are all free to practice any religion. Islam is a backward Religion in most countries it dehumanizes women and children. For those defenders of extreme Islam ask yourself this: Why are Muslims killing so many Muslims? Irag, brother against brother. Afghanistan Muslim against Muslim, the Sudan Muslim killing Muslims and christians when they take a break from killing fellow Muslims. Give me ONE example of Christians killing Muslims on mass, you can't because it isn't happening. Nice try trying to deflect this issue as being a Christian versus Islam issue but the fact is world wide Extreme Islam is raging a holy war against it's own followers. It is the Christians that go into these backward countries and provide food, medicine, aide, doctors, while Muslims kill Muslims in the name of Allah Christians clean up the blood that drips off their unholy vile hands.
 
the caracal kid
#19
since you asked for one:

"The Yelwa massacre took place on May 2, 2004, in Yelwa, Nigeria. According to Red Cross reports more than 630 nomad Muslims were killed by Christians."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelwa_massacre (external - login to view)
 
ottawabill
#20
www.christianitytoday.com/ct/.../5-3-32.0.html (external - login to view)

Unfortunately Christians kill as well...

But Sassy you are so right. atleast in the western world we are so beyond all of this. Sometimes as in 9/11 these 3rd world women hating cave dwellers come over here to continue the great fight. What they cannot see is that we don't life that was, we don't daily clash with other groups, and spend all our waking hours thinking about it...

To bring up what Europeans in 1235 did and somehow relate that with what a muslim group did last week is just plian stupid!!! Maybe the Brit's should rise up against the Swedes since they invaded their country in 1050 (ish)

again I say people commit these war crimes then use God to justify their actions...It is not the norm but rather God is being used as a tool to further their own agenda, be it Rwanda, Taliban, the Crusades or a way to get more money for an evangelists ministry. Then us people who have a relationship with God have to pay...
 
ottawabill
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kidView Post

since you asked for one:

"The Yelwa massacre took place on May 2, 2004, in Yelwa, Nigeria. According to Red Cross reports more than 630 nomad Muslims were killed by Christians."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelwa_massacre (external - login to view)

They are no more Christian than Osama is Muslim..twisted people.. twisting verses for their own twisted world
 
the caracal kid
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by ottawabillView Post

www.christianitytoday.com/ct/.../5-3-32.0.html (external - login to view)

Unfortunately Christians kill as well...

But Sassy you are so right. atleast in the western world we are so beyond all of this. Sometimes as in 9/11 these 3rd world women hating cave dwellers come over here to continue the great fight. What they cannot see is that we don't life that was, we don't daily clash with other groups, and spend all our waking hours thinking about it...

To bring up what Europeans in 1235 did and somehow relate that with what a muslim group did last week is just plian stupid!!! Maybe the Brit's should rise up against the Swedes since they invaded their country in 1050 (ish)

again I say people commit these war crimes then use God to justify their actions...It is not the norm but rather God is being used as a tool to further their own agenda, be it Rwanda, Taliban, the Crusades or a way to get more money for an evangelists ministry. Then us people who have a relationship with God have to pay...

interestingly enough, if you adjust for the age differences of the two religions (compare Islam now to Christianity 600 years ago), Islam is developing quite well (as far as the stages we have seen christianity go through).
 
DurkaDurka
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kidView Post

interestingly enough, if you adjust for the age differences of the two religions (compare Islam now to Christianity 600 years ago), Islam is developing quite well (as far as the stages we have seen christianity go through).

"Developing quite well" ?? That's funny. More like a downward spiral.
 
ottawabill
#24
turn it over we're done!!!

I guess development is coloured Burka's
and dozens of Virgins
 
the caracal kid
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by DurkaDurkaView Post

"Developing quite well" ?? That's funny. More like a downward spiral.

Do the comparison yourself between Christianity at 1400 years old and Islam at 1400 years old.

(a downward spiral is an interesting term. It will eventually spiral down, just as christianity has been. Some day the world will be past the abrahamics. Some day.)
 
ottawabill
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kidView Post

Do the comparison yourself between Christianity at 1400 years old and Islam at 1400 years old.

(a downward spiral is an interesting term. It will eventually spiral down, just as christianity has been. Some day the world will be past the abrahamics. Some day.)

the comparison has nothing to do with each religion,,,it is where each group of people were at at what time. Some cultures we very civilized with the dumbest idea of religon, some cultures very low to the earth with amazing thoughts of higher beings...
 
the caracal kid
#27
religion and culture are deeply intertwined.

the comparison is valid because the closeness of the religions parallels the similarities in the cultures (for the respective times).

In other words, give Islam 600 years and it very well could produce cultures similar to the christo/secular ones of today.
 
gopher
+1
#28
Give me ONE example of Christians killing Muslims on mass, you can't because it isn't happening.


Evidently, someone has conveniently missed my earlier posts on the subject.
 
EastSideScotian
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Researcher87View Post

Oh no, not Christians with their love thy neighbor and all that sweet jazz and stuff. Well I am sorry Christian lovers, but the majority of Rwanda is Christian so even though it was mostly done on an ethnic level which basically was based on one group of people being liked by the Belgian (buggers) over another, and even more important aspects;

Christian teaching didn't really help them:

This is Rwanda Stats
and no they have not changed that much in 12 years, in the religion category I mean.

Population: 8,648,248
note: estimates for this country explicitly take into account the effects of excess mortality due to AIDS (external - login to view); this can result in lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality (external - login to view) and death rates, lower population and growth rates, and changes in the distribution of population by age and sex than would otherwise be expected (July 2006 est.)
Age structure:
0-14 years: 41.9% (male 1,558,730; female 1,548,175)
15-64 years: 55.6% (male 1,943,268; female 1,971,542)
65 years and over: 2.5% (male 83,699; female 123,715) (2006 est.)
Population growth rate: 2.43% (2006 est.)
Birth rate: 40.37 births/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Death rate: 16.09 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Net migration rate: 0 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2006 est.)
Sex ratio:
at birth: 1.03 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.01 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 0.99 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.67 male(s)/female
total population: 0.99 male(s)/female (2006 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 89.61 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
male: 94.71 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 84.34 deaths/1,000 live births (2006 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 47.3 years
male: 46.26 years
female: 48.38 years (2006 est.)
Total fertility rate: 5.43 children born/woman (2006 est.)
Nationality:
noun: Rwandan(s)
adjective: Rwandan
Ethnic groups: Hutu 84%, Tutsi 15%, Twa (Pygmoid) 1%, 16,000 South Asians (mostly Indians) Arabs 9,300, French 2,500, British 300, Belgian 100
Religions: Roman Catholic 56.5%, Protestant 26%, Adventist 11.1%, Muslim 4.6%, indigenous beliefs 0.1%, none 1.7% (2001)
Languages: Kinyarwanda (external - login to view) (official) universal Bantu vernacular, French (external - login to view) (official), English (external - login to view) (official), Kiswahili (Swahili) used in commercial centers
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 70.4%
male: 76.3%
female: 64.7% (2003 est.)

Well guess wha My little Resercher friend...

You should do some more Research.......Rwanda is one of my Favorite subjects. This was no war on Religion, You are way off. This was a Genocide.

Two groups of people Hutus, and Tutsi. The Hutu governement ran by hardline Hutu Power poloticians and generals, did the killing, none of which used religion as the reason. Guess what....Both Hutus and Tutsi are Christain.......and just because they claim Christainity doesnt mean they follow it ethier. Be fore you throw a religion into something make sure you know what your talking about.

There are a few good documentrys on Rawnada you should read/whatch and also Read Shake Hands with the Devil, a book of the first hand account of the Canadian General in charge of the UN mission.

But you are way off on this one...this was no religious war, it was racisim and radicalism.
 
EastSideScotian
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

Give me ONE example of Christians killing Muslims on mass, you can't because it isn't happening.


Evidently, someone has conveniently missed my earlier posts on the subject.

Ever hear of something called the Crusades?

Christains did kill Muslims in large numbers. We once killed off the magority of Muslims in Jurusalim at one point. The reason why Iam not sure but their were some Crusaders that didnt see the Muslims as friends and wanted to kill them. Like wise for muslims.
 
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