Challenge Vanni


Extrafire
#1
Vanni has challenged others to defend their belief and since he thinks it's only fair to do the same, that is the purpose of this post.

So, since we don't know exactly what you believe Vanni, let's just start at the beginning, the way the Bible does.

What is your belief about the origin of the Universe?
 
Reverend Blair
#2
Which universe?
 
NickFun
#3
I think the universe was started as a joke by a guy named Fred.
 
Reverend Blair
#4
That's one of the most reasonable explanations I've heard all day, Nick.
 
Extrafire
#5
I know Fred. Wow. Didn't think I had friends in such high places.
 
Extrafire
#6
Quote:

Which universe?

Since the universe is a closed system (general relativity theory) we can never know if other universes exist, so this is the only one that we have to deal with.
 
Vanni Fucci
#7
I believe the Big Bang Theory...and before you go off on your creationist little tangent, and say "well what happened before the Big Bang"...

This happened... (external - login to view)

Quote:

In the beginning was Nothing. No space, no matter or energy. But according to the quantum principle, even Nothing was unstable. Nothing began to decay; i.e. it began to "boil," with billions of tiny bubbles forming and expanding rapidly. Each bubble became an expanding universe.

 
LadyC
#8
This has always fascinated me, too, whether from the Creationism or Evolution theory...

What is this "nothing" of which you speak? How can "nothing" boil and create bubbles?
 
Reverend Blair
#9
I like string theory...specifically the part where the universe next to ours bangs into us and causes the big bang. That's cool....like a Deep Purple drum solo.
 
Vanni Fucci
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyC

This has always fascinated me, too, whether from the Creationism or Evolution theory...

What is this "nothing" of which you speak? How can "nothing" boil and create bubbles?

It is nothing...no energy, and no matter...however, the quantum principle dictates that it cannot remain in that state, and so nothing spontaneously erupts into matter and energy...

Quote:

Universes can literally spring into existence as a quantum fluctuation of Nothing. (This is because the positive energy found in matter is balanced against the negative energy of gravity, so the total energy of a bubble is zero. Thus, it takes no net energy to create a new universe.)

 
LadyC
#11
Ah.....
Now I know how to explain the mess around here. It just spontaneously erupted.

Cool.
 
mrmom2
#12
Heres another theory

www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/...cgi?read=55804 (external - login to view)
 
Extrafire
#13
Quote:

This is the Genesis hypothesis, where the universe was hatched from a Cosmic Egg

They got this wrong. I believe it's Hinduism that believes in the cosmic egg. Genesis has it comming from nothing (singularity).

Quote:

A remarkable consensus has been developing recently around what is called "quantum cosmology," where scientists believe that a merger of the quantum theory and Einstein's relativity

This would refer to superstring theory which is "mathematically elegant" and Michio Kaku himself has said that not a thread of experimental evidence exists to confirm superstrings. (A good book that explains the theory is The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene.) I like the theory (not that I fully understand it)and it is the only candidate that could be able to provide the mechanism to produce the bubble universes.

Quote:

Stephen Hawking is doubtful; he believes that our universe may co-exist with other universes, but our universe is special. The probability of forming these other bubbles is vanishingly small.

To put it simply (since I am not a scientist) you would have to have all the background laws of physics in place. If even one of them was missing or different it's impossible that any life permitting universe could be produced. And you would need to make mega-multiple trillions of universes just to increase the odds that the cosmological constant would come out right. The likelyhood that any universe-generating system would have all the right components, ingredients and information just by random chance is so small as to be scientifically impossible as Hawking attests. If such a system actually does exist and function, it would best be explained by design.
 
Vanni Fucci
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by Extrafire

This would refer to superstring theory which is "mathematically elegant" and Michio Kaku himself has said that not a thread of experimental evidence exists to confirm superstrings. (A good book that explains the theory is The Elegant Universe by Michael Greene.) I like the theory (not that I fully understand it)and it is the only candidate that could be able to provide the mechanism to produce the bubble universes.

I'll read Greene if you read Kaku's Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension...

Quote:

Stephen Hawking is doubtful; he believes that our universe may co-exist with other universes, but our universe is special. The probability of forming these other bubbles is vanishingly small.

Quote:

To put it simply (since I am not a scientist) you would have to have all the background laws of physics in place. If even one of them was missing or different it's impossible that any life permitting universe could be produced. And you would need to make mega-multiple trillions of universes just to increase the odds that the cosmological constant would come out right. The likelyhood that any universe-generating system would have all the right components, ingredients and information just by random chance is so small as to be scientifically impossible as Hawking attests. If such a system actually does exist and function, it would best be explained by design.

...but the possibility exists, even if the probablility does not...and if all variables were satisfied, quantum theory states that the predicted result will occur, because it must...there is no design in that...
 
EmmaDibbs
#15
It makes my head hurt thinking about things like this- it's like when you lay down looking at the stars and start thinking...'where does it all end?' 'What is beyond it all?' 'There must be an end somewhere?'
It's the stuff of head aches
When I was much younger I had a theory that the universe was a ring shape and so there was no end...then I started to think....so what's outside the ring!! DOH!!
 
Dexter Sinister
#16
Quote:

... it would best be explained by design.

Design, and the necessary assumption of a designer, explains nothing in any scientific sense. One must then explain the origins of the designer, and the origins of those origins, and so on in an infinite regression. Attempting to terminate that regression by claiming that the designer has always existed begs the question. This is highly unsatisfactory to the scientific mind, which seeks naturalistic explanations of all phenomena.

It does, however, look very much like, as Freeman Dyson put it, that the universe must in some sense have known we were coming. That's the essence of the fine tuning argument that's appeared in other posts here and elsewhere: the constants of nature, like the relative strengths of the four forces, the charge to mass ratio of electrons and protons, and a lot of more esoteric numbers like the nuclear fine structure constant, appear very carefully tuned to permit life as we know it to exist. I've never been sure what the point of that argument is; to me it just says that if things were different, then things would be different and we wouldn't be here to observe them.

One possibility that has a certain appeal to me is the notion that there's an infinity of possible values for those constants, and thus an infinity of possible universes, very few of which would be capable of sustaining life. We just happen to live in one of the ones that does, though it's worth noting that most of the universe we can see is pretty hostile to our kind of life.

Another possibility that also appeals to me is the idea that the values of those constants we measure may be the only possible ones, for deep reasons we don't understand yet. They may emerge as the smarter folks delve deeper into things like string theory and loop quantum gravity, but right now the best we can say is, "we don't know."

One thing is sure though. The two most successful physical theories we have, general relativity and quantum mechanics, despite being confirmed to umpteen decimal places repeatedly by every test anyone's ever been able to devise, remain fundamentally incompatible. There's at least one more layer of reality we haven't discovered yet, which might be strings, or quantum loops, or something else nobody's thought of yet. But invoking a designer at this point is the end of the research program; in one sense it explains everything, but in another way it explains nothing, it merely denies the need for further explanations.

And if you really want a headache, study up on Godel's Incompleteness Theorem: scientific proof that not only don't we know everything, we can't, not even in principle.
 
Gonzo
#17
Listen to the Modest Mouse song "Third Planet". They know what’s going on. Or that Monty Python song that says "We prey that there’s intelligent life out there in space, because there’s bugger all down here on earth". Truer words were never spoken.
 
Judland
#18
The universe always existed.... it's TIME that was created during the "big bang." But this is just a theory.

...And I need another coffee.
 
MMMike
#19
String theory... quantum physics, big bang... Nope, I've gotta go with the "Fred theory".
 
peapod
#20
I knew this thread would bring dexter back Continue please dexter, secretly peapod admires your knowledge greatly, and vanni's also. Yours is like music tho dexter.
 
Dexter Sinister
#21
Thank you pea. Are you flirting with me? I sure hope so, I like that. I haven't been entirely gone, I've been lurking around here more or less constantly, but I've also been extremely busy in real life and there weren't any threads I felt moved to contribute to, until I saw this one this morning.

Here's another thought that I like. Why is the universe as big and old as it is? It has to be in order for us to be here to see it. The best evidence suggests it's about 13.7 billion* years since the Big Bang, the sun's about 5 billion years old, and should be good for about another 5 billion before it bloats up into a red giant and wipes out the inner planets. And what does that say about design and a designer? That his/her/its planning horizons, at least as far as life on this planet's concerned, don't extend beyond 10 billion years.

I digress. The Big Bang produced mostly hydrogen, with a little helium and possibly traces of some of the lighter elements like lithium. We are made of some much heavier stuff than that, and the only place it could have come from after the Big Bang is the nuclear reactions in the interiors of stars. We couldn't exist until at least one generation of large stars had formed, burned up their fuel, and exploded, scattering heavy elements among the interstellar dust clouds.

So how does that make you feel, knowing that the atoms you're made of came from inside exploded stars?

*for the Europeans among us, that's billion in the North American usage, a thousand million, not a million million.
 
Jo Canadian
#22
Quote:

So, since we don't know exactly what you believe Vanni, let's just start at the beginning, the way the Bible does.

What is your belief about the origin of the Universe?

The bible states one particular belief for the beginnings of the Universe, But no one has the true answer for that, not even the bible. The only difference between the science and faith is that science is still actively looking for how it all began, while religion believes in how Gawd got the ball rolling, and has it's faith on that belief.

Science will always find new secrets regarding the beginning, but will always find more questions. That's the fun part of the universe. So we'll never truly find the real answer, maybe when we die but who can prove that eh?

So to answer the question that was given we could post anything we believe. None of us will truly be right, religious or not.

I'm going to go for one of the native theories about when there was no sun and the raven threw a snowball which turned into the earth bla bla bla, and in the end the ravens name was Fred.
 
Vanni Fucci
#23
That's true Jo, science is always seeking for the truth, which may never be found...and one day the Big Bang Theory may too be relegated to the status of a creation myth...but not likely...it just fits too well with everything else to be wrong...

...but here's the difference between science and religion...science will learn from it's mistakes and make adjustments and come up with a new theory...

Whereas, religion will hang onto their myths even when they fly in the face of all reason and understanding...
 
peapod
#24
Most of all vanni there is a group of them that want to legislate and make laws based on their idea of morality. Well they are welcome to their "morality" most of them don't even live by it themselves, yet they seem determined to trust it upon the rest of us. This is something that no free thinking person will ever accept. But the debate is going nicely, much more interesting than politics.
 
Jay
#25
"Most of all vanni there is a group of them that want to legislate and make laws based on their idea of morality."

This isn't just a disease of the theists Pea. You need to understand that.
 
peapod
#26
Ya your right, its just the ones who say homosexuality is a sin, and old men in paper hats that tell a women what she can do with her own body. Its just those ones I have a problem with. I desire to see society evolve and I am not "afraid" or stuck in some "stoneage" mentality over it either. Most of all tho, what really pisses me off is the hypocracy of it all. A group of people telling someone else about "morality" when its their own morality they should be really questioning.
 
Jo Canadian
#27
Quote:

one day the Big Bang Theory may too be relegated to the status of a creation myth

That's quite possible, I'm for thinking whenever or if the Big bang is ever figured out then there will be tantilizing questions of what was going on before????

First there was nothing.
Then there was Fred...
 
tibear
#28
Vanni,

Quote:

Whereas, religion will hang onto their myths even when they fly in the face of all reason and understanding...

I think if you were to actually look into the official teaching of the Catholic Church you will find that nowhere do they say that God created the universe in 7-24 hour days. Take some time to do some research on some Catholic Bible scholars and I think you will be very surprised about what the teaching of the Church is.

Anyone who has continued to study their faith will have progressed beyond the Adam and Eve theology. The problem I have is with people that think that since the Bible can't be taken as a literal history book, then anything to do with religion is a bunch of "hocus-pocus".

I've said on many occasions that I don't believe in Adam & Eve, believe that evolution is a very likely scenario for our development, many stories in the Bible are exactly that, stories. However, to ridicule people because they have a different belief system then your own is simply wrong.

As a very wise person once said, a few people hate the Catholic Church for what it stands for, a great many people hate the Catholic Church for what they believe it stands for.
 
peapod
#29
Your exactly right there tibear, some people do like what it stands for and how it functions
 
Jay
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by peapod

Ya your right, its just the ones who say homosexuality is a sin, and old men in paper hats that tell a women what she can do with her own body. Its just those ones I have a problem with. I desire to see society evolve and I am not "afraid" or stuck in some "stoneage" mentality over it either. Most of all tho, what really pisses me off is the hypocracy of it all. A group of people telling someone else about "morality" when its their own morality they should be really questioning.


I feel better knowing we can come to some sort of understanding with each other.
 

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