Challenge Vanni


Extrafire
#151
Quote:

Extrafire wrote:
And by the way, you also formed your conclusion first.


No, that's wrong. You can have no idea what turmoil our exchanges on these forums has caused me.

Actually I thought you were referring to my participation on this forum. In that case, we both formed our conclusions long before coming here.

Quote:

My parents weren't stupid either, and they believed much as you do, and that always gives me pause. But the fact remains, I do not and at least for the moment cannot believe as you do, so I seek other explanations.

Nice to know where you're coming from. You at least had the ability to make an informed choice, something a lot of people don't get to do. I was also raised in a theistic home and not having the advantage of an advaced education in either direction made my choice for theism, although I had a lot of questions. The only opponents I heard to naturalism were the fundmentalists, and I knew they were out to lunch. I heard some good philisophical arguments for theism, but I was in my 40's before I was even aware of the scientific arguments against naturalism & for theism. (I know, I know, lots of you will say there are no scientific arguments.)

Quote:

But despite our manifest and fundamental differences, I wish you well and I want to keep talking with you.

Why thank you. But due to my wife's disaproval and my own knowledge that I don't really have enough time to devote to forums, I may not be here much longer, as I indicated in the "Introduce Yourself" thread when I arrived. I'm sure it will be fun while it lasts.
 
zenfisher
#152
Extrafire...people have been making bread for centuries without a bread machine. They have been making bread without means to measure exact temperature. So you can make bread without a well designed machine.

I didn't twist your words they were direct quotes placed in the order you posted. It does not change the fact that if your god cannot forgive every sin...he is not all loving. If he sees someone about to sin and does not try to rectify it.... he is not all loving,free will or not. If he doesn't know they are about to sin...then he is not all knowing.If he is not all knowing how could he possibly design a universe.
 
Dexter Sinister
#153
Quote: Originally Posted by Extrafire

....I may not be here much longer

I'm sorry to hear that. We obviously disagree profoundly on some things and haven't always been polite to each other, but that's okay; if we agreed on everything and had no passion about it, what would we have to talk about? That's what these forums are for. And since you referred to your wife as SWMBO, I presume you're a fan of that long-suffering but brilliant slob, Horace Rumpole, so we have at least one thing in common that's also worth talking about.

Stay as long as you can, and try to convince She Who Must Be Obeyed that this is a good place, and worth your time. Lots of people would agree. But what are 1500 contrary opinions against SWMBO's?
 
Twila
#154
Quote:

It does not change the fact that if your god cannot forgive every sin...he is not all loving.

I'm just going to jump in here and see if I can explain this.
God is forgiving. But how can he forgive you if you can't forgive yourself?
Quote:

If he sees someone about to sin and does not try to rectify it.... he is not all loving,free will or not.

If God were to step in it would remove free will. Life is work. You can not go through life without making mistakes and learning from them. If God were to step in we'd never learn from our mistakes. It IS free will that prevents him from steping in and fixing it all for us. How can we strive to be better then we are if we are never allowed to do things?
What you are describing (that God lets people suffer) is not a god, or even THE god but a dictator.

If this were true then George W. would have to make up plans to overthrow him. What better power could there then to not only be president but GOD? (k, I'm being silly.)



Zen, please don't take the above statements about free will as an arguement from me or me attempting to sway you. I'm not. I'm attempting to explain free will and why God can't step in, in my limited way.
 
Vanni Fucci
#155
Quote: Originally Posted by Extrafire

And it would have to make trillions of trillions of uncountable trillions of universes just to get one component such as the cosmological constant to have the right value in order to produce a life sustaining universe.

Hey Ex, glad to see you were able to reply, and I hope you're able to respond to this as well...

What evidence do you have that this has not already taken place? Further to that, what reason would a creator have for creating planets and galaxies that do not support life?


Quote: Originally Posted by Extrafire

But, you’ll say, as long as there is a possibility even in a number that big, it could happen without a creator. Talk about faith! If I were to wager with you that I could flip a coin and get heads 50 times in a row, and then was able to do it, you would insist that the game was rigged. Yet that’s possible to do. In fact the odds are 1 chance in a million billion, but there’s no way you would believe it wasn’t rigged. Yet, with odds so small the number can’t even be written within the confines of the universe, you think it hasn’t been rigged. Now THAT is faith.

No, that's not faith, it's science and mathamatical probability, and the ability to not get sucked into the vacuous expanse of faith...
 
Vanni Fucci
#156
Quote: Originally Posted by Twila

If God were to step in it would remove free will.

Free will exists far more without a god than with.

In the bible, we see countless examples of God suppressing or eliminating free will.

What free will did Adam and Eve have when the serpent, also a creation of God, is sent to tempt them. Before that temptation, and their eating of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they had no knowledge of good and evil, remember.

What free will did everyone but Noah's family have when God drowned them in the great deluge...are we to believe that Noah was the only righteous person left on earth? That seems a bit of a stretch...

What free will did the Egyptians, who, if we are to believe the bible, are also creations of God, have when he sent the angel of death to kill the first born of everything in Egypt?

For that matter, what free will did Pharoah have when God admittedly hardened his heart against Moses' plea to set his people free?

...and these from just the first two books of the bible. Throughout the bible are examples of God eliminating free will, and then causing terrible things to happen when they "choose" how God set them up to "choose" in the first place...

Faith itself is a form of suppression of free will, in that one must remain faithful, or suffer eternal damnation.

How free can ones will be if absolute and unconditional adherence to the will of another is required for a spurious post-mortem reward...
 
Twila
#157
I'm not an expert. I'm barely an amateur.

but I do believe you are mistaking the meaning of free will. People have free will to do as they please within God's plans.
If God decides to do away with people that has nothing to do with free will. Death is death. Nobody escapes it. It's a part of living. It has nothing to do with free will.

Quote:

Faith itself is a form of suppression of free will, in that one must remain faithful, or suffer eternal damnation.

How free can ones will be if absolute and unconditional adherence to the will of another is required for a spurious post-mortem reward...

This is the mess that man has made for himself. I don't believe that faith is a suppression of free will. I can choose to be a good person or a not good person. I've made a decision. And will suffer the consequences or reap the benefits of it.

I also don't believe that God is properly represented by current religions. Man corrupts it to suit his own purposes. This is best represented in our treatment of prositutes. War. Homelessness. Animal/Child/Senior abuse.
 
Aizlynne
#158
The one thing that spirituality does is help create peace in society. The belief that ones actions create possible negative consequences "down the road" allows a society to live in relative harmony. I think some folks would also refer to this as "having a conscious".

Having a conscious means that you won't sexually fornicate, assault and murder young children for example..... or you won't bash your parents skulls in because they said no to you..... I think you get my drift.

So while you can espouse the virtues of "free will" just remember that is also applies to the sickos in society who one day may just prey upon you or a member of your family. Will you feel the same about "free will" then?

So in my opinion spirituality does play a very important role in that it keeps the majority of people living together with a modicum of respect for each other - even those with differences of opinion.
 
Reverend Blair
#159
Neither spirituality not morality imply religiousity though. Those things are quite possible without a belief in god.

I don't believe in any gods, but I am as moral as most people and do several things that people would consider spiritual, such as enjoying nature or being moved by a song or piece of writing.
 
Vanni Fucci
#160
Quote: Originally Posted by Twila

but I do believe you are mistaking the meaning of free will. People have free will to do as they please within God's plans.

Hmmm...so even though God would take away peoples' ability to choose, that is still considered free will?

Quote: Originally Posted by Twila

Death is death. Nobody escapes it. It's a part of living. It has nothing to do with free will.

No, death is death when someone falls off a cliff, or is eaten by lions or dies of some wasting disease...then death is death...but when the supposed creator of the universe and man has caused these things to occur, then there a conscious and deliberate denial of free will...and it's just a deity throwing a tantrum and killing millions for nothing...

Quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Faith itself is a form of suppression of free will, in that one must remain faithful, or suffer eternal damnation.

How free can ones will be if absolute and unconditional adherence to the will of another is required for a spurious post-mortem reward...

This is the mess that man has made for himself. I don't believe that faith is a suppression of free will. I can choose to be a good person or a not good person. I've made a decision. And will suffer the consequences or reap the benefits of it.

So, even though, if I were to live my life never breaking a single commandment, but not offering my servitude to any God or Jesus, I would still be consigned to hellfire, according to the words of Jesus and what's written in the bible...

Quote:

2 Thessalonians 2:11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is a blatant denial of free will by your so called creator...
 
Vanni Fucci
#161
Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

Having a conscious means that you won't sexually fornicate, assault and murder young children for example..... or you won't bash your parents skulls in because they said no to you..... I think you get my drift.

So while you can espouse the virtues of "free will" just remember that is also applies to the sickos in society who one day may just prey upon you or a member of your family. Will you feel the same about "free will" then?

You're not suggesting that religion some how negates mental illness are you?
 
zenfisher
#162
Twila I understand freewill. I welcome your thoughts. Believe me I cannot be swayed in my stance.

He will offer forgiveness for those that cause abominable harm to others just for kicks. ( ie Clifford Olson, the Green River killer,et al) If on their deathbed they repent their sins...god will welcome them into heaven.

Yet a Father who goes out and robs a bank to feed his starving family and does not regret nor does he repent is cast into the fiery pit.

Forgiving oneself isn't really the element here. If he forgives the serial killers and not the Father feeding his kids...He is not all loving. As for the Father, manna has fallen from heaven before. At least that is what we were told.

As for free will...if god truly has all this power. Do you think it might be possible that he could interfere and still leave the illusion of free will within us. Free will isn't really the issue. Its being all powerful, all seeing and all loving that breaks apart the argument.It breaks down like this:

If god can prevent evil and doesn't...he isn't all loving.

If god intends to prevent evil, but cannot, then he isn't all powerful.

If god both intends to prevent evil and is capable of doing so, then how can evil exist?

As to the free will argument...

If god is omniscient, He must know before hand exactly what a person will do in a given situation.In that case, a person, is not in fact free to do the alternative to what god knows he or she will do,and free will must be an illusion. To take this one step further, if one chooses to commit a sin, how can it be said one sinned freely?
(quoted from... The New York Public Library desk reference.)
 
Vanni Fucci
#163
Quote: Originally Posted by zenfisher

As to the free will argument...

If god is omniscient, He must know before hand exactly what a person will do in a given situation.In that case, a person, is not in fact free to do the alternative to what god knows he or she will do,and free will must be an illusion. To take this one step further, if one chooses to commit a sin, how can it be said one sinned freely?
(quoted from... The New York Public Library desk reference.)

Quite right...and as all things are purportedly God's creation, the so too must be sin and evil...

...and if we are to assume that our creator has created these things also, then as Zen says, this being has not the capacity for love, only creation of both good and evil...

...of course this is arguing from a position that I don't embrace, and metaphysical reasoning has never answer any real questions...
 
Aizlynne
#164
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

Having a conscious means that you won't sexually fornicate, assault and murder young children for example..... or you won't bash your parents skulls in because they said no to you..... I think you get my drift.

So while you can espouse the virtues of "free will" just remember that is also applies to the sickos in society who one day may just prey upon you or a member of your family. Will you feel the same about "free will" then?

You're not suggesting that religion some how negates mental illness are you?

I actually agree that pedofilia is in fact a neurological disorder, and one that cannot be cured. But the majority of sexual offenders are not in fact pedofiles. Power is what drives them - that feeling of wanting to be superior.

So in that sense, having the ability to define right from wrong and treating others as you want to be treated stem from, in fact, spiritual based teachings (10 commandments kinda thing) and help keep society conforming to peace and harmony to some extent.

Now it certainly isn't the cure-all for everything and most of the religions around are just pathetic excuses to socially re-engineer good people at heart. But I think inherently most people believe in a God type being. My God certainly doesn't judge or condemn, but instead tries to teach his messages through good people, just like you. I don't really blame you for being cynical in your approach to religion.... I was for years (Catholic - but not practicing). Most of us struggle you can be sure of that. But time and age bring you additional wisdom and help you fetter out the crap from the good.
 
Vanni Fucci
#165
Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

I actually agree that pedofilia is in fact a neurological disorder, and one that cannot be cured. But the majority of sexual offenders are not in fact pedofiles. Power is what drives them - that feeling of wanting to be superior.

Agreed...

Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

So in that sense, having the ability to define right from wrong and treating others as you want to be treated stem from, in fact, spiritual based teachings (10 commandments kinda thing) and help keep society conforming to peace and harmony to some extent.

I don't agree with this...one must only look to the problem with the pedophile priests to see the flaw in that logic...also, I do not follow the ten commandments, and have no use for religion, yet I am not a deviant, nor have I murdered anyone...my morality is my own, and has nothing to do with what's written in the bible.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

My God certainly doesn't judge or condemn, but instead tries to teach his messages through good people, just like you.

If you are referring to the God of Judeo-Christian myths, then I have to say you are wrong. I'm not going to go into the details, because it's all written there for you to read in your bible, and you seem like a nice enough person, and I don't want to piss you off.

I would like to say though that you cannot choose what your God is and is not. If you are to believe in your God at all, you must believe that he created you. If you believe that he created you, then how is it that you are able to define his characteristics? All that is known of your God is what is written in the bible...there is no other source, just as the only source for Allah is in the Quran.

If the descriptions of the moods and actions of your God that is found written in the bible is false, then the whole scheme falls apart at the seams...

...because if God did not do this or that, then the bible is just a fictitious story, and if it's just a story, then how could God exist, and if God does not exist then Jesus does not exist...and if Jesus does not exist, then Christianity has been playing billions upon billions as suckers for almost 2000 years...incidentally, that is what I believe, and the documentary, and archaelogical evidence supports my belief more than it does yours.
 
Aizlynne
#166
Yeah... you know I struggled for a long time with the same ideology you have.

I actually don't read the Bible because I too believe many parts of it to be fiction.

So what do you think drives most people to live civil, moral lives? If there is no fear for consequences and everyone can do as they please, they why doesn't everyone just steal, murder and not care for one another?

I would be most interested in hearing your thoughts.
 
tibear
#167
Vanni,
Quote:

All that is known of your God is what is written in the bible

This shows your ignorance about the Christian belief. Take a look at the end of the gospel of John and see what it says about the life of Christ and whether the Bible contains all of the knowledge regarding God.

We've already had many debates about the bible and it seems you seem to be stuck in "Literal" mode. As a bible scholar once said, "You can either take the bible literally or you can take it seriously."

I realize that you like the literal and fundamentalist religions because they are easy to attack because the of the contradictions in the bible. But if you want to "run-down" religion get off the bible because most faiths that use it don't take it literally.
 
Aizlynne
#168
Hi Tibear:

I couldn't agree with you more. But give Vanni a break because he is struggling with his spirtuality as many of us have. I have had many doubts and have run the gamit of being spiritual and not. I think actually Vanni would believe in God if there wasn't so much dicotomy in the various religions and the sham and mockery some of them make out of it (Tammy Faye Baker, Falwell, some Catholic priests just to name a few).

But I have come to the understanding that while the writings and teachings in bibles can vary from one sect to another, they all share a common theme which is the existence of God and the joy of everlasting life.
 
Jay
#169
I don't think struggling is the right word.
 
Vanni Fucci
#170
Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

Yeah... you know I struggled for a long time with the same ideology you have.

I actually don't read the Bible because I too believe many parts of it to be fiction.

So what do you think drives most people to live civil, moral lives? If there is no fear for consequences and everyone can do as they please, they why doesn't everyone just steal, murder and not care for one another?

I would be most interested in hearing your thoughts.

If we take a look at morality from a sociological perspective, many cultures that were not influenced by Christianity, held some of what the Christians like to refer to as "Christian values". Christianity may have developed out of some people's desire to see those values standardized.

As a society develops, they develop their own code of morality and social mores. This has nothing to do with religion, although it is religion that normally lays claim to that morality.

Morality and ethics are no more a construct of religion than are kindness and charity.

Just as morality is not derived from religion, neither can religion guide one to morality. Too many religious people have committed attrocious acts of immorality in spite of, or because of their religion.

There is always a fear of consequence...fear of ostracization would be one compelling motive to adhere to ones social conventions.
 
Vanni Fucci
#171
Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

But give Vanni a break because he is struggling with his spirtuality as many of us have.

Your reading far too much into my words it seems...

I have no struggle with spirituality, as I too have moments of spirituality that has nothing to do with religion or your God.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

But I have come to the understanding that while the writings and teachings in bibles can vary from one sect to another, they all share a common theme which is the existence of God and the joy of everlasting life.

Show me scientific evidence of the existence of God and everlasting life and we can end this debate. Until such time, I will be firmly entrenched in the there-is-no-god camp.
 
Vanni Fucci
#172
Quote: Originally Posted by tibear

We've already had many debates about the bible and it seems you seem to be stuck in "Literal" mode. As a bible scholar once said, "You can either take the bible literally or you can take it seriously."

Yep, everyone should take that tripe with a grain of salt...

However, as I've shown you, your own church believes that contained within those pages is the divine word of God...

So all you've shown is that your beliefs are inconsistent with the conventions of your church...but that's ok, because Christians tend to be a fickle bunch...believing this for awhile, until it's disproven by science, then they believe that...

What's the matter with you...the DIVINE WORD OF GOD not good enough for you...
 
tibear
#173
Vanni,

Geesh, don't you read what I post!

Your right that the Church does teach that the Bible IS the word of God but this DOESN't mean that it is 100% literally true.

You seemed much to concerned about the "How" of the bible and not the "Why". Most religions that read the bible read the bible to see the stories of man's interaction with God and from these stories we try to see the teaching behind it.

Do we have to believe every story in the bible?? No. Does my religion say that we have to believe every story in the bible? No. Does my religion say that we aren't to believe the stories in the bible? No.

You seem to be much too black and white. Perhaps introduce some colour into your life, it is a much more enjoyable experience!!

As I said earlier, your stuck in the logical arguement with regards to faith. Just like you can't prove faith through logic, you can't disprove it either.

Most of your arguements can be described in the following analogy:
A parent has a child and loves the child very much. Claims that they will love the child regardless of what they do. When the child tries to ride their bike they fall down and hurt themselves. You then accuse the parent of not loving the child because if they did they would have prevented the child from hurting themselves. When the child breaks a window while playing baseball, the parent makes the child pay for the window because they knew better. You then accuse the parent of not being forgiving because they should forgive everything the child does.

I'm sorry but love doesn't work that way. It's obvious you're not a parent because you might have an easier time understanding love and how it works between a parent and child.

My two cents worth....
 
Vanni Fucci
#174
Quote: Originally Posted by tibear

Vanni,

Geesh, don't you read what I post!

I've read everything you've posted on this topic...

Quote: Originally Posted by tibear

Your right that the Church does teach that the Bible IS the word of God but this DOESN't mean that it is 100% literally true.

The phrase "the bible is the word of God" means that the words in the bible were literally dictated by your god, as opposed to the phrase "divinely inspired, or inspired by God", which would mean that the messages were delivered in some medium, to be put into words by the author.

By that token, when the bible says that God annihilated this civilization or that, then your church contends that that event actually took place. To say otherwise, would mean that your church considers the words in the bible, and thus the words of your God to be untruths.\

Given what your church maintains, only two possibilities can exist:

1. Your God has lied to the authors of the bible.

OR

2. The bible does not contain the word of God.

Quote: Originally Posted by tibear

You seemed much to concerned about the "How" of the bible and not the "Why". Most religions that read the bible read the bible to see the stories of man's interaction with God and from these stories we try to see the teaching behind it.

I don't concern myself too much with this at all. I know the how and the why:

HOW -- Christianity evolved from Judaism, and a smattering of Cynical school of philosophy.

WHY -- To be used as a means of controlling the masses.


Quote: Originally Posted by tibear

As I said earlier, your stuck in the logical arguement with regards to faith. Just like you can't prove faith through logic, you can't disprove it either.

I'm not trying to prove anything here. You made a statement that your church does not necessarily believe everything written in teh bible, and I'm saying that's false.


Quote: Originally Posted by tibear

I'm sorry but love doesn't work that way. It's obvious you're not a parent because you might have an easier time understanding love and how it works between a parent and child.

If you'd read my posts, you'd know that I have 5 children...

Quote: Originally Posted by tibear

My two cents worth....

I'll give you a half farthing for the lot of it... :P
 
Twila
#175
Vanni. You may be right. I'm trying to figure out whether I'm attempting to convince you or myself about free will.

as I stated earlier I'm barely an amateur. So I'm going to have to back out of this debate simply because I don't know enough and because I'm unclear on my motives........I hate being unclear.
 
Aizlynne
#176
Since we agree that you do in fact have spirituality, could you tell me where you feel your spirituality, whatever sparse moments you have, comes from? Do you think it is brought about by social re-engineering manufactured by your parents or peers?

Since you are scientifically nature based, I can see how you would interpret many things as black and white. Most of my friends and peers that are scientifically based think in linear thought patterns as well.

Do you encourage or discourage your children from searching for spiritual roots even if you don't believe in God? Would you believe in God if proof were given? If so, what type of God do you think they would be?
 
Vanni Fucci
#177
Quote: Originally Posted by Twila

Vanni. You may be right. I'm trying to figure out whether I'm attempting to convince you or myself about free will.

That you are able to question your motives, Twila, suggests to me that your free will is indeed well, and intact.

...and I wish you well in finding the answers you seek.

 
Vanni Fucci
#178
Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

Since we agree that you do in fact have spirituality, could you tell me where you feel your spirituality, whatever sparse moments you have, comes from? Do you think it is brought about by social re-engineering manufactured by your parents or peers?

My sprirituality comes from guiding my children to respect themselves, others, and their environment. It comes from teaching them how to put a worm on a hook, and it comes from sitting with them as the last flickering flames of the bonfire die down to embers. It comes from being aware with all of my senses of the nature around me and helping my children tune in to their surroundings. It comes from watching the sun set in the reflection of the lake, and I even find comfort in the buzz of the mosquitoes as the sun finally disappears.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

Since you are scientifically nature based, I can see how you would interpret many things as black and white. Most of my friends and peers that are scientifically based think in linear thought patterns as well.

Actually, this is what I struggle with, as I am not predisposed to think linearly, and I find it a real chore to do so...at the same time, I know it to be the truth, so how could I do otherwise.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aizlynne

Do you encourage or discourage your children from searching for spiritual roots even if you don't believe in God? Would you believe in God if proof were given? If so, what type of God do you think they would be?

My two stepchildren are in a Christian school. My two children from a previous marriage used to go to church, and I never had a problem with it. I went to church as a child too.

If evidence could be presented that was irrefutable according to scientific method, then just as I believe that gravity exists, so too would God exist for me. As I see it though, science is outgrowing God, and there may never be a reconciliation.

My god, were I ever to invent one, would have the common courtesy to come down off his lofty perch and share a drink with me every year on my birthday...
 
Extrafire
#179
My, how quickly we get off topic. Much of this belongs on Vanni's Challenge.

Zen,
Quote:

Extrafire...people have been making bread for centuries without a bread machine. They have been making bread without means to measure exact temperature. So you can make bread without a well designed machine.

True, but you have to have intelligence. I was using the machine as an annalogy. My wife has made bread without a recipe, but the machine is a mechanism that requires a lot more precision and if things are off, you don't get the product you want. If the components weren’t right, the bread would also be off. If a “mechanism” for producing universes were off, you wouldn’t get our universe, since it must be so precise.

Quote:

I didn't twist your words they were direct quotes placed in the order you posted. It does not change the fact that if your god cannot forgive every sin...he is not all loving. If he sees someone about to sin and does not try to rectify it.... he is not all loving,free will or not. If he doesn't know they are about to sin...then he is not all knowing.If he is not all knowing how could he possibly design a universe.


Presuming my God, He can forgive every sin. Your concept of all loving makes no sense. And not being confined to our time dimension, he does know who sins in advance. But this segment is off topic and we’re going round in circles, so I won’t respond to it any more.
 
Extrafire
#180
Quote:

No, that's not faith, it's science and mathamatical probability, and the ability to not get sucked into the vacuous expanse of faith...

Faith is applicable to more than just religious belief. When flying as a passenger in a 737 you have faith that the pilot is properly qualified. That faith is based on a high probability, based on knowledge, that he/she could not be piloting an aircraft without the necessary qualifications. If you believed that I could flip a coin and get heads 50 times in a row it would have to be based on more than mathematical probablility. Such as a 2 headed coin. There's no way you or anyone else would believe that I could do it based purely on probability, so how could you believe in a probability so small that, in Hawking's words, it vanishes?
 

Similar Threads

64
Vanni and Rev meet up
by peapod | Sep 22nd, 2005
2
For vanni and rev
by peapod | Aug 7th, 2005
8
Hi vanni
by peapod | Mar 22nd, 2005
no new posts