tattoos

Vereya
#31
I just wanted to ask - does it hurt very much to have a tattoo?
I eas thinking of getting some Pagan ornament tattooed around my ankle, or probably a wolf on my forearm. Which would be easier to do?
 
Chelsey211
#32
Hey im 15 and i want a tattoo on mii shoulder...i know im to young but i want one for my grandam which shows that she will always have my back wat do u guys think?
 
tamarin
#33
Boy, I must be oldfashioned. I think tattoos on girls or women make them look cheap. And unless you're involved with the military, a tattoo on a guy makes him look challenged. It's primitive behaviour.
 
Caleb-Dain Matton
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by Chelsey211

Hey im 15 and i want a tattoo on mii shoulder...i know im to young but i want one for my grandam which shows that she will always have my back wat do u guys think?

I used to drive a Grandam in the 80's. Don't do it Chelsey. I have 3 tattoos and regret all of them. You're "grandma" will always have your back -- a picture of her will work just fine
 
Amik
#35
Think about all the ways you could demonstrate your admiration for your grandma. Getting a tattoo with her name seems really.......... superficial (pardon the pun)
 
tamarin
#36
A tattoo is an enduring symbol of immaturity. A tip of the body politic to the primitive urges in man's past and the long lost, nascent quest for symbolism. It's an embarrassment to witness its prolific resurrection in present times.
 
Cosmo
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

A tattoo is an enduring symbol of immaturity. A tip of the body politic to the primitive urges in man's past and the long lost, nascent quest for symbolism. It's an embarrassment to witness its prolific resurrection in present times.



Gedoudahere! You serious? "Enduring symbol of immaturity"??

Poke in the eye with a sharp stick for you!

Those of us with tats love our ink. Insulting them is kinda like saying someone's kid is ugly. You may think it, but it's poor form to actually speak it.

My tattoos represent life changes. They are meaningful to me and since I've had tattoos for the vast majority of my life, they are part of who I am.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I respect that you don't care for tattoos. I would just offer up the suggestion that you employ some tact when dissing them.
 
tamarin
#38
"My tattoos represent life changes. They are meaningful to me and since I've had tattoos for the vast majority of my life, they are part of who I am."

You're well aware the love affair between women and tattoos is of recent vintage. And its spillover to ever younger girls is a concern. If you've got tattoos - and you surely do - then I expect you'll have a social conscience and encourage only those 20 and over to take the leap.
It's hard to express tact - and I think it entirely inappropriate - when viewing a fad of this sort that's got ridiculously out of control.
 
GreenGreta
#39
I waited until I was 30 to get my tattoos. I wanted them from the time I was a teen, like you.

However, he wasn't done five minutes before I regretted it. Damn.

Since then, I've gotten two others. I always regret having done the first one, and really wish I hadn't. But since I got the one, may as well keep going.
 
Twila
#40
Tattoo's are as old as the hills....well not really. But they sure have a very long history.

In every culture.......there be tattooed people.
 
Gonzo
#41
I was thinking of becoming a tattoo artist. I studied animation and can draw pretty much anything. I went to a few places and they liked my art and said animators make the best tattoo artists. The only thing is you sometimes have to give tattoo's to disgusting people. And sometimes they want weird stuff tattood on them.
 
Cosmo
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

You're well aware the love affair between women and tattoos is of recent vintage.

Better Google that info, Tamarin, since it's way wrong. Us chicks have been getting tattoos throughout the ages.
 
tamarin
#43
Cosmo, I don't need to google. I'm a hoary 55 and the only women that had tattoos until the last ten or so years of my life span were biker babes and junkies. Not a single girl or woman I grew up with, went to school with, attended university with had a tattoo. No women of my mother's or grandmother's generation had tattoos either. The tattoo is as old as the hills but its incarnation amongst the women of staid North America is new. (Don't get me off-track with aboriginal instances.)
You 'chicks' might have gotten tattoos in other centuries but you sure haven't done it since confederation here- until now.
But don't mind me. I have a very negative view of tattoos on women. A very negative view of the industry that's promoted it. A very negative view of its chief spokespeople (and their cultural agenda) and the celebrity culture that's at the centre of the spin. But that's my opinion. You can do as you please. Whether I like it or not means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things.
 
Cosmo
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

Cosmo, I don't need to google. I'm a hoary 55 and the only women that had tattoos until the last ten or so years of my life span were biker babes and junkies. Not a single girl or woman I grew up with, went to school with, attended university with had a tattoo. No women of my mother's or grandmother's generation had tattoos either. The tattoo is as old as the hills but its incarnation amongst the women of staid North America is new. (Don't get me off-track with aboriginal instances.)
You 'chicks' might have gotten tattoos in other centuries but you sure haven't done it since confederation here- until now.
But don't mind me. I have a very negative view of tattoos on women. A very negative view of the industry that's promoted it. A very negative view of its chief spokespeople (and their cultural agenda) and the celebrity culture that's at the centre of the spin. But that's my opinion. You can do as you please. Whether I like it or not means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things.

Well, Tamarin, I'm 47 and not all that far behind ya, girl. I was one of the few girls I knew who had a tattoo ... I got my first one at 15 years old, so ya, in western culture they were not in favour.

Historically, however, tattoos have always been around. Here's a fascinating article -- the first part discusses Japanese tattooing done on men, but later in the article comes this:

Quote:

Ryukyu tattooing was first mentioned in 1461. However, some scholars consider the description of tattooing in the Zuisho of 622 to be the oldest record of the Ryukyu tattoo even though this information is still speculative (Yoshioka, 1996). The oldest reports of Ainu tattoos were recorded by an Italian researcher, Girolamo de Angelis in 1612 and 1621 (Yoshioka, 1996). The Ainus were tattooed on the face as well as the back of the hands and arms. The tattoos were done around the lips, cheeks, the forehead or the eyebrows. There are several motivations for Ainu tattooing: cosmetic purposes, tribal purposes, sexual maturity, religious purposes and adornment. Although only the Ainu women's tattoos were mentioned in most cases, it was also reported that the men were tattooed in some regions (Takayama; 1969, Yoshioka; 1996).
Ainu girls were first tattooed when they were 10 to 13 years old. Some women started when they were 5 or 6 years old. Their tattoos were completed by the time they reached marriageable age. The patterns of the Ainu tattoos are related to their tribal clothing.
Tosabayashi (194 presents the study on the patterns of the Ainu tattoo in detail. He mentions that the patterns of the tattoos are similar to the chastity belt that the Ainu women wore, and that Ainu tattoos symbolize virtue or purity. The Ainu tattoo is also used for protection...

Quote has been trimmed
tattoos.com/mieko.htm (external - login to view)

Tribal tattooing has been done forever on both sexes. In western culture, though, the Puritans pushed them out of favour. Tattoos and anything Pagan became taboo.

There is a truly excellent book called "Book: Bodies of Subversion, Second Edition: A Secret History of Women and Tattoo" by Margot Mifflin.

Here's a review of the book:
www.beautysalon.com.au/produc...ook/189045110X (external - login to view)

Quote:

This is a must-read for anyone interested in getting a fuller history of tattooing. The book does an excellent, well-balanced job of weaving biographies and social commentary regarding tattoos and tattoo-ers. And it's a story that must, to be fully inclusive, tell of women's involvement in this art, both as tattoo-ers and tattoo-ees. I had no idea this art form went back so far as it does for western female tattoo afficionados. It's a fascinating story that's seldom told or discussed. It appears that nothing is held back in terms of the whys and hows that these women came to acquire their tattoos, or to have become tattoo-ers. And it's a great missing segment in women's history, and art history for that matter, that needs more exposure (no pun intended) to help dispell the myths and prejudices about women with tattoos. This is a great, ancient art form that deserves more expression, appreciation and respect by the general public, especially in the United States where folks are just too uptight and puritanical about this kind of art.

There are zillions of other articles and books available on the subject and I could spend all day picking through my bookmarks to find great sites for you.

I get asked about my tattoos all the time -- by complete strangers. I have a labrys on my left arm, a great blue heron on my right arm, a collection of lilies and Chinese characters from ankle to knee on my leg and others that aren't shown unless I wear little tank tops. People are fascinated by them. I am often touched by the comments and the interest shown. People actually want to know what they mean to me, why I have them. They are willing to approach a total stranger and ask about them. In many ways my tattoos have opened doors to casual social encounters I would not otherwise have had. I enjoy people immensely so find this a good thing.

I also have gone from a rather, errrhhhm, let's say "interesting" life to one of quiet contentment. I stopped drinking 19 years ago and have spent nearly two decades working on bettering myself. There have been junctures in my life that I could not pass unnoticed and my way of honouring them is to get a tattoo representing the lesson learned.

I do respect your right to dislike tattoos. *shrug* I hate painted on eyebrows. We all have some cosmetic stuff we find unappealing. I'm not trying to convince you to run out and get something daring inked on your body, but I am making an effort to quell some of the judgmental feeling I get from your posts.

I am frequently approached by young women about my tattoos. I give the same advice to every single one of them ... go for it, indeed, but choose a pattern you absolutely love today and wait one year before having it tattooed permanently on your body. I'm always careful to point out the down side of getting a tattoo ... things like being stuck with a tattoo that you don't like, being stuck with a tattoo of inferior quality, etc. etc. etc.

I remind them that the body they have at 20 ain't gonna be the same at 50 and when getting tattoos, that has to be a consideration. I have a Pegasus on my tummy that has grown and shrunk with me since 1981 and has, at times, looked pretty funny. I was smart enough to get that one where no one would see the changes.

Oddly enough, Tamarin, I'm in agreement with you about having tattoos be such a common thing. When I got mine, they were a big deal, you really had to be committed to the idea of body art, there was no way to remove them then short of skin graft. There was a cache that is lacking today.

But that's the selfish part of me. The bigger part of me enjoys seeing others get tattoos they love. Like anything that requires that degree of commitment, there is an instant comraderie with others who have lots of tattoos. I recognize something kindred in these women and it leaves me feeling uplifted. It's a little like the days when I used to ride a Harley ... there was a kind of instant mental "high five" when you saw someone else (especially another woman) on a Harley. And no, Tamarin ... when I got my first tattoo I didn't know a Harley from a Moped, so I wasn't a biker babe, nor was I a junkie.

I find it interesting to discuss this with someone with such an opposing view to mine. I've told you why I love my tattoos, perhaps you can tell me why you dislike them so much? I know my mother hates them simply because she's "old school" and "nice girls" didn't do stuff like that. It's some kind of built-in prejudice that she has never taken the time to examine. And that's okay too -- I respect her opinion on it while living my life in a way that brings me joy. No hard feelings.
 
tamarin
#45
Cosmo, I'm glad you give wise advice to young women considering tattoos. It's needed. Body art seems to be far larger than a fad or trend at the moment and I have a lot of misgivings about that
Why am I opposed? As I've mentioned before, one of the largest movements of our time is primitivism. The wish to embrace the practices of pre-historical eras and cultures. Piercing and body art and primal behaviour (the omnipresent lolling of tongues etc.) body writing and garish, goth-charged dress and make-up etc. all recall a far earlier time in our existence. Linked with the mainstreaming of porn, primitivism is a potent force indeed.
I like a little stability in my life. I don't see much outside it. I really have a hard time, thinking I am a citizen of a modern country, accepting what's going on around me under the umbrella of tolerance. I can take a little but it's really become too much. It's out of control.
We are a society that says to the world- be like us!
Most days I understand why the globe's not listening.
 
Cosmo
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

Cosmo, I'm glad you give wise advice to young women considering tattoos. It's needed. Body art seems to be far larger than a fad or trend at the moment and I have a lot of misgivings about that
Why am I opposed? As I've mentioned before, one of the largest movements of our time is primitivism. The wish to embrace the practices of pre-historical eras and cultures. Piercing and body art and primal behaviour (the omnipresent lolling of tongues etc.) body writing and garish, goth-charged dress and make-up etc. all recall a far earlier time in our existence. Linked with the mainstreaming of porn, primitivism is a potent force indeed.
I like a little stability in my life. I don't see much outside it. I really have a hard time, thinking I am a citizen of a modern country, accepting what's going on around me under the umbrella of tolerance. I can take a little but it's really become too much. It's out of control.
We are a society that says to the world- be like us!
Most days I understand why the globe's not listening.

First, Tamarin, kudos to you for discussing this. I can take you seriously because you are not just blindly following an unexamined knee-jerk reaction, but have given it some thought. Folks like you make the forums extremely interesting to me! I can't just toss off answers to your comments. You require me to think and for that, thanks.

Having said all that, I respectfully disagree with you. Your logic doesn't make sense to me unless it's formed from the framework of a rigid christian belief system. I'm not knocking christians here! I think that any belief system that gives one comfort, solace, enlightenment and betters them is good. I just don't think religion is one size fits all. But I digress ... that's an argument for another section of the board.

Primitivism fell out of favour in the 18th century ... primarily as a result of Europe being turned upside down by religious wars. The elite embraced belief in monotheism and piety and rejected the pervasive superstition of the preceding Dark Ages. It was a step forward ... for the 18th century. It’s not such a great leap for the 21st century, imho. Reclaiming the better parts of primitivism without embracing it entirely is a bit like the baby and the bathwater. It wasn’t all bad.

I appreciate how the recent movement toward tattooing is symbolic of a return to that primitivism in which we lived under a cloud of superstitious dread. I comprehend your discomfort at such a blatant display of a return to that way of thinking ... if, indeed, that’s what it is.

I don’t think it is a total return to traditional primitivism, though. I think that the popularity of tattooing, particularly in women, is a step forward and not a step backward. As we discussed earlier, when we were young only the “bad girls” had tattoos. Now everyone has them from teens to grandmothers!

Part of tattooing for teens is, naturally, the cool sheep syndrome where peer pressure is more of a motivating factor than any kind of deeper philosophical reason for inking oneself, but that doesn’t come close to illuminating the true reason for a return to tattooing. It's not just kids doing this so it can't be laid at that door.

That women feel free enough to get tattoos is a step forward. It’s always been acceptable in a far greater degree for men to have tattoos so this is a form of equality. And with the popularity of the art over the past decade, tattooing has lost its power to be the domain of rebellion and has moved into the realm of self expression. Self expression requires self knowledge. Self knowledge dictates a move away from the rigid, moralistic thinking handed down from previous generations and opens the way to a certain freedom.

There is a balance between rational thought, science and self knowledge that did not exist before. I see tattooing as an expression of that advancement. Women and men are equally free to get tattoos, the tattoos they get are borne of inner knowledge and a recognition of the ever powerful unconscious. This offsets the pendulum swing that happened with the enormous leaps forward made by science in the past century. We’ve gone from worshipping superstitious beliefs to worshipping science and arrived at a middle ground. I see tattooing as evidence that we have achieved a balance between science and faith.

As for the mainstreaming of porn ... that’s a whole new topic. I don’t see a correlation between that and tattooing and the entire issue of porn is a discussion in itself so I’ll just give that a pass for now.

Perhaps if you took the time to actually speak with someone who has a publicly placed tattoo, to ask her why she got it, what it means to her, you may find that there is more to tattooing that some slide into social degeneration. If you approach people with an open mind and a non-judgmental attitude, you may be surprised at the depth of thought and faith expressed in that ancient form of art. It might ease your mind to learn that the majority of tattoos now are not skull and cross bones, but expressions of positive subject matter.
 
tamarin
#47
Much to think about there. I can certainly agree that the tattoo has lost a great deal of its stigma in the last decade. So has much else. There's general agreement if you want to take the sting out of anything- generalize it. This is especially true in language. Queer no longer has any impact. Neither does **** or bitch. The words are commonly bandied about and many young girls and women call their friends bitches and *****s. They've acquired a warm, tingling feeling.
Whether tattoos or tattooing, their spread or acceptance, have any of the significance you believe is moot. Who's to know.
But it is one of many bold trends that have swept across the western world in the last ten years. And certainly some of them, in my opinion, were outrageous. Extreme piercing is one example. That young people in their millions would pierce facial areas that could in the piercing or the follow-up pose a danger to themselves was boggling. This trend is waning but it was common to see teens and early twenties three to five years ago sport up to a dozen facial rings and studs. Primitivism at its quirky and evolutionary best.
Tattooing got mixed in the crowd of bold new experiences and seems to be outlasting most. Perhaps because, unlike its peers, it's cumulative.
My career has given me plenty of time and opportunity to talk to young people and young adults about both piercing and tattoos. Granted, there are some who impress me with their historical knowledge but most are unstintingly vapid. They're doing it because it's cool. And cool rules.
Western society is entering a time of major transition and challenge. That so little connection exists between its component groups is a concern. What do we hold in common? What do we believe in? How are we defined as a people? Clearly there's not a helluva lot there to glue the resistance together that will be needed not that far down the road. We honour individuality and personal choice no matter what that means and we will be facing an enemy who believes foremost in solidarity.
I'm digressing but I see the tattoo as one more expression of western narcissism and egocentrism that will make it difficult for us to rally and present a united front when the chips come down.
Maybe body art is simply innocent and all the hullaballoo and outcry is a tempest rocking the teapot. Maybe it's also one more step towards the decadence and profligacy that has marked stumbling societies in the past. I guess we'll find out.
 
Cosmo
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by tamarin

Much to think about there. I can certainly agree that the tattoo has lost a great deal of its stigma in the last decade. So has much else. There's general agreement if you want to take the sting out of anything- generalize it. This is especially true in language. Queer no longer has any impact.

I've been lost the last couple of days ... haven't had time to give this proper thought till now.

I agree absolutely that many of the old taboos have lost their grip on society. As you pointed out, the word “queer” no longer is derogatory. Again, Tamarin, this is a bit off track, but I feel it’s worth mentioning.

I am a lesbian and as such have invested a great deal of study, thought and research into things like the terminology we use. I have discovered that removing the shame from certain words is highly liberating. Recently someone from here called me an “f’ing dyke” because he was mad at me. Because I know the etymology of the word dyke, he was utterly robbed of his intent to insult. The word dyke, incidentally, is derived from Queen Boadica who was an incredible woman of strength, character and who kicked *** on the Romans after they had pillaged her family. To throw a reference at me of someone I admire is hardly hurtful.

Reclaiming language is enormously important for any marginalized people. Shedding the humiliation inherent in the bastardized slang that people would use against us is a clear step toward personal liberation.

In that light, I believe that freeing tattooing from the bonds of indignity can only prove to be a positive thing. I also believe that the less “bad girl” image it portrays, the fewer tattoos we’ll see. Instead of doing it to be “cool”, people will get tattoos for more meaningful reasons.

I agree with you that there are many people who get tattoos for the wrong reason. As tattoos become increasingly accepted, the dilettantes, neophytes and dabblers will find less painful and permanent ways to try on belief systems as they mature. There’s always a new fad around every corner. As is said in the book of Ecclesiastes; “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.” We’re having to recycle tribalism to be rebels at this particular point in time. It’s going to be humorous when kids revert to Puritanism to rebel against their folks, eh? I’m sure that time will arrive at some point.

Quote:

Western society is entering a time of major transition and challenge. That so little connection exists between its component groups is a concern. What do we hold in common? What do we believe in? How are we defined as a people? Clearly there's not a helluva lot there to glue the resistance together that will be needed not that far down the road. We honour individuality and personal choice no matter what that means and we will be facing an enemy who believes foremost in solidarity.

Those are, indeed, questions that carry great weight. I wonder, though, if we really are so disconnected as a people? I went through a period where I felt that society had not just become tattered around the edges but that the fabric had, in fact, disintegrated entirely. It seemed that everywhere I looked I saw evidence of social decay.

I realized, though, that it was more my perception than any intrinsic transformation of the way people interact. For example, here at CC I’ve seen people go at it tooth and nail, blood pressure rising to alarming levels, insults bandied back and forth. But when the chips are truly down, I’ve seen the members of this forum pull together, set their differences aside and unite. I think it’s a microcosm of the rest of the world. The same thing would happen if we were in any way threatened.

I bolded part of your quote because I’m not sure I understand it. Your words, “we will be facing an enemy who believes foremost in solidarity” left me a bit puzzled. I’m not sure what enemy we will be facing so can’t really address that. I’d be interested in hearing though.

Quote:

Maybe body art is simply innocent and all the hullaballoo and outcry is a tempest rocking the teapot. Maybe it's also one more step towards the decadence and profligacy that has marked stumbling societies in the past. I guess we'll find out.

I agree with you that history does tend to repeat itself and that our society is on the brink of change. Whether that change is for good or for ill, though, is not certain in my mind. I think we’re struggling to find a way to freely be individuals without sacrificing our social structure. And to my eyes, we are succeeding admirably. We are busily setting aside differences, obliterating boundaries and embracing a fuller range of humanity. That bodes well, imho. I think things like the acceptance of tattoos demonstrates a move forward rather than a step onto the slippery slope of debauchery.

Then again, Tamarin, I tend toward Pollyanna optimism. It’s served me well for a lot of years so I think I’ll continue to stick with it.
 
Julienne
#49
Fub, I couldn't see the pick of your tat, but i do like celtic crosses (based on Twila's, next comment). Infact when I went to get mine, i was going for a celtic cross... but i didn't find an image of one i liked at the time, and being determined this was the tattoo moment... I ended up leaving with a little devil in a diaper with a pitchfork.

In for a cross, out with a devil.

I'm trying to think up an original one for the next time i go... I'm about due, its been 10 yrs already.

*edit* I had missed the entire last page of this thread. I have thought alot about why I got my tat. For me it was a form of self expression, the main expression at the time being rebellion. I have no regrets, the way I see this one, is that at that time, that's what i intuitively chose, as I was so dissatisfied with the dozens of examples i saw in the books. This one stood out the most, and I know, is more in tune with my character. The next one I do, I will put more conscious thought into.. but the day i go to have it done, if I have another intuitive moment, i may again come home with something completely different, then ends up showing more of who i am at that time. I feel tattoos symbolize who I am, in a non verbal way. I love seeing how other people define themselves, make themselves stand out more, show they're uniqueness.

If my children tell me they want tattoos... I'd say "well, you know your dad will freak out... but wait on it till you're of age, and really think about what you want to say about yourself."
 
Twila
#50
history of women and tattoo's

www.atomicbooks.com/products/-/603.html (external - login to view)

It was quite fashionable in the 1920's to have a tattoo artist come to your party. Women of that time would have small tattoos done.
 
Julienne
#51
That looks like an interesting read, i'm going to keep an eye out for it next time i'm in a book store! Thanks for the link
 
tamarin
#52
"In that light, I believe that freeing tattooing from the bonds of indignity can only prove to be a positive thing. I also believe that the less “bad girl” image it portrays, the fewer tattoos we’ll see. Instead of doing it to be “cool”, people will get tattoos for more meaningful reasons."

Cosmo, yr right. As tattooing is mainstreamed a lot of the allure will cool. Cooling cools cool.

"We’re having to recycle tribalism to be rebels at this particular point in time. It’s going to be humorous when kids revert to Puritanism to rebel against their folks, eh? I’m sure that time will arrive at some point."

Again, it will come to be. Yr right. Something in the human brain insists we challenge the status quo. Even though we're simply returning to an older pattern in doing so. Same old, same old.

I think western society and culture has already matured and is growing old. Maybe it is our boredom that is behind our embracing of primitivism and tribalism. We have become detached from what we purport to be. And we too are part of a larger cycle of succession. Watching China as it begins to test its wings, I can only think time is short. Here is a society that is a behemoth. It already squeezes its neighbours, is putting pressure on Japan to remilitarize, threatens the resource load and traffic of key First World nations and time after time is highlighted as the key threat to the world's environment (the ruthless logging of its last rainforests and the exploitation of its species) . With its lack of checks and balances on growth, its monolithic political culture, its zeal for regional and then world hegemony, China presents enormous challenges to us here. And these tests of will will come just as the US makes critical decisions to withdraw from the frontiers and risks of global leadership.Nothing stays the same.
Future historians will write that most never saw it coming. That the West slept as the East rose. Nah, I'm just here to remind a reader of it all today. This century belongs to China. A remorselessly controlled society. We are about to come into its orbit.
 
Riyko
#53
Discussing the issue of tattoo's and women or even men. I figure it's their body and if they want to get a tattoo they can do it because they have to live with it no one else does. I might be one of the immature or not understanding ages because i'm 20. My dad's mom saw my tattoo and hated it she also hated all of my mom's tattoo's as well ( my mom is 43), but we didn't care at all. My tattoo has a deep meaning to me as well as my mom's have a deep meaning to her.
 

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