So, in essence what you are saying is that when compared to all the countries with a murder rate lower than the United States, the United States has the highest murder rate.
Huh? Re-read your sentence, please. It is circular. You wrote that compared to all countries with a lower murder rate than America, America has a higher murder rate. I think you mistyped, but I don’t know what you mean.
BTW, something I always want to ask those who wish to cherry pick countries this way: what is it about the countries you eliminate that makes them not suitable for comparison??
Is it because they are not white??
Or is it because they are poor??
I am just curious....I want to know if that line of reasoning is racist, elitist, or both.
You could have asked if my position was “racist, elitist or does it have a reasonable basis? However I will stick to the truce for now rather than getting offended. Just a reminder of the truce.
I answered this question in my post. My position is neither racist nor elitist. It is a comparison of apples to apples without confusing the issue by inserting lemons. As I explained in my post, many of the countries in your list are an unrealistic comparison because we are studying culture. Crime is culturally sensitive. Something that is a crime in Saudi Arabia or Yemen might not be a crime in Canada or the US (for example possessing a Bible). I don't think comparing Islamic Third World cultures in a discussion about western gun culture is accurate. For instance in Iraq people stand outside at weddings and shoot AK 47’s into the air. How are we supposed to come to conclusions about what gun use is acceptable in Canada or the US by studying poverty stricken Islamic cultures? I don’t think any valid comparison is possible. I took my figures from the chart on the same web page you got your list from and I posted the url with my arguments for you to check. I am quoting your chosen reference site to make my arguments.
AND, as I have pointed out 100 times, using firearms homicide rates is absolutely dishonest. If guns cause murder, the prevalence of guns in a society will have an effect on the overall murder rate.....and some of the countries with the highest gun ownership on earth are among those with the lowest murder rates.
If you re-read my argument you will see that I agree with you that “murder” rates are misleading. I also said that for the purposes of my post I was not claiming significance per se from raw gun numbers in the US.
[QUOTE=Colpy;1803563]Governments are the cause of perpetrator of the vast majority of murder.[/QUOTE]
I can imagine any number of scenarios stemming from sociological factors to argue that what you are saying is partly true. It sounds awfully “liberal” and seems to ignore the extent to which people should be held personally accountable for their mis-deeds. If 9,000+ Americans chose to shoot and kill somebody in 2007, how does that explain the 303,991,000 Americans who lived in the same county but did not do so?
Not all fault can be laid at the feet of government. The part that can be blamed on government includes the legal environment that permits behaviours that facilitate the killings. As to the rest, it could be interpreted to mean that if government creates the culture, US culture is sick? The world argued that about the WW2 Nazi culture, so I don’t know why that would not apply to 21st Century America.
As to my argument itself, all I did was compare bare numbers between countries that are culturally similar. America has 16 times the number of gun deaths in the year studied than nine similar counties whose combined populations are 96% of the population of America. You say you disagree with me, but you don’t say why or how? Do you have any explanation? I took the figures from a web page chosen by you for the argument. I don’t think I can get much fairer.
Re-read my conclusions. I tried to stay away from anything personally controversial and just state conclusions that were obvious from the facts. My conclusions were:
1. America has more guns in raw numbers and on a population basis in comparison to the other countries of similar culture.
I trust that you are not disagreeing with number 1. It is a fact, not an opinion.
2. With only 4% more population and 16X the killing rate of countries of similar cultures and politics, America has a gun problem compared to Canada and the others.
This is my opinion. When a society has 16X the number of gun killings as the group I compared it to, I call that a problem.
3. Whether or not excessive numbers of guns cause more shootings, if a country’s killing-by-gunfire rate is already 16X the rate of other countries with the same culture, a public safety issue surrounding guns probably exists.
I deliberately phrased this as “probably exists” to avoid offending anyone. If you have some logical reason for differing, I am interested in hearing it. Maybe you’ll change my mind? Why would you think that there is no public safety issue comparatively speaking? I took the figures from a website you seem to approve of, because the chart I used is right beneath the facts you copied? Maybe you think it is fair to compare Third World countries to America, Canada and Western Europe when it comes to gun culture? I am interested in seeing your arguments.
4. If adding more guns to the milieu was an effective answer, America would have the lowest per 100,000 casualty list and be the safest country from gun violence of all the countries in the chart.
Again, this is just an opinion. If you think it is illogical, tell me why?
5. If a public safety issue exists, some more effective gun control method is necessary if Americans wish to live in a gun safety environment more like Canada and Western Europe.
The issues of what is public safety and what gun environment exists in Canada and Western Europe are variables here. I suspect that Canada’s gun culture is much different than Western Europe, but is nothing like America’s. There is a lot of room for maneuver in this point. Perhaps you disagree with my position that if there is a public safety issue gun control is part of the answer?
6. In comparison to America, Canada is safe and does not need more gun laws or stricter gun control.
Finally, if you think my argument means Canada should have more gun control, that is not what I mean and not what I am saying. My position is the exact opposite – Canada is not America, our gun culture is much more peaceful and the Canadian public should be educated to realize this. We should not be subjected to further gun control.
I am not an unknowledgeable, knee jerk “anti”. I have shot all my life. I reload my own ammo. I hunt and shoot. I have listened to all the current anti-gun control positions before. I don’t agree with US arguments at this time. I think the US positions are important to Canadians because the average Canadian does not shoot, is aware of the slaughter in America, does not want the American shooting rate for Canada and I agree with that position. The reasonable position for Canadians to take is not to support the extremist US crowd, but to educate Canada about the reasonableness of the Canadian gun culture. I am unclear what it is about this position you disagree with?
Maybe we should just agree to disagree? That happens in politics.