Gun control continued

[tober]

I have tried all morning to link to the last page of the previous gun control thread, but it hangs up. I wonder if the issue is to do with my Windows 8, a dog of a platform if ever there was one? In any event, I sent Colby a PM to let him know that I was starting the thread anew. I will try to PM him the new if this beggar of an operating sys...[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

 

[tober]

I answered this question in my post. My position is neither racist nor elitist. It is a comparison of apples to apples without confusing the issue by inserting lemons. As I explained in my post, many of the countries in your list are an unrealistic comparison because we are studying culture. Crime is culturally sensitive. Something that is a crime in Saudi Arabia or Yemen might not be a crime in Canada or the US (for example possessing a Bible). I don't think comparing Islamic Third World cultures in a discussion about western gun culture is accurate. For instance in Iraq people stand outside at weddings and shoot AK 47’s into the air. How are we supposed to come to conclusions about what gun use is acceptable in Canada or the US by studying poverty stricken Islamic cultures? I don’t think any valid comparison is possible. I took my figures from the chart on the same web page you got your list from and I posted the url with my arguments for you to check. I am quoting your chosen reference site to make my arguments.

Well, Colpy? You've had two weeks to rummage through your mind. Are you still determined to try and turn a gun control debate into racist name calling? Your argument is in the sewer. I chose ten nations that are culturally similar, including Canada and the US. I took the chart from a web page you chose. I showed that America had 16X as many gun murders as all the others combined. Please explain how your position is tenable?

 

[Goober]

Left a comment for ya. No offense intended.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/canadian-politics/49782-gun-control-completely-useless.html

 

[pgs]

Well, Colpy? You've had two weeks to rummage through your mind. Are you still determined to try and turn a gun control debate into racist name calling? Your argument is in the sewer. I chose ten nations that are culturally similar, including Canada and the US. I took the chart from a web page you chose. I showed that America had 16X as many gun murders as all the others combined. Please explain how your position is tenable?
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You sure are long winded are you the ghost of sir joseph potter perhaps?

 

[Colpy]

As I explained in my post, many of the countries in your list are an unrealistic comparison because we are studying culture. Crime is culturally sensitive. Something that is a crime in Saudi Arabia or Yemen might not be a crime in Canada or the US (for example possessing a Bible). I don't think comparing Islamic Third World cultures in a discussion about western gun culture is accurate. For instance in Iraq people stand outside at weddings and shoot AK 47’s into the air. How are we supposed to come to conclusions about what gun use is acceptable in Canada or the US by studying poverty stricken Islamic cultures? I don’t think any valid comparison is possible. I took my figures from the chart on the same web page you got your list from and I posted the url with my arguments for you to check. I am quoting your chosen reference site to make my arguments.

We absolutely agree. Culture is the cause of murder rates. The culture of fatherlessness and violence in US inner cities drives there murder rate.

So why are we talking about guns?? Gang bangers get guns anyway.......

1. America has more guns in raw numbers and on a population basis in comparison to the other countries of similar culture.

I trust that you are not disagreeing with number 1. It is a fact, not an opinion.

The Americans own more guns per capita than ANY other nation. In fact, they have an ownership rate almost twice that of the next highest nation. We agree.

Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. With only 4% more population and 16X the killing rate of countries of similar cultures and politics, America has a gun problem compared to Canada and the others.


This is my opinion. When a society has 16X the number of gun killings as the group I compared it to, I call that a problem.

Wrong. Once again, you have fallen for, and are perpetrating the propaganda ploy of anti-gun groups by using only firearms deaths. The murder rate in the USA is low, significantly lower than the world average.........how can that be, if they are such a sick society, and armed to the teeth.

The US murder rate is 3 x that in Canada. Back in 1975, when I was a young man, the laws in Canada were much closer to US laws, and the murder rates in both countries were much higher........the US rate was 3 x that in Canada. Despite our exceptionally strict laws (brought in since 1979), and the USA actually loosening their laws, the ratio of murder has remained the same.

 

[tober]

You sure are long winded are you the ghost of sir joseph potter perhaps?

Like I said, [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR].

 

[Colpy]

3. Whether or not excessive numbers of guns cause more shootings, if a country’s killing-by-gunfire rate is already 16X the rate of other countries with the same culture, a public safety issue surrounding guns probably exists.


I deliberately phrased this as “probably exists” to avoid offending anyone. If you have some logical reason for differing, I am interested in hearing it. Maybe you’ll change my mind? Why would you think that there is no public safety issue comparatively speaking? I took the figures from a website you seem to approve of, because the chart I used is right beneath the facts you copied? Maybe you think it is fair to compare Third World countries to America, Canada and Western Europe when it comes to gun culture? I am interested in seeing your arguments.

Public safety issue?? Let's compare......

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

In 2011, there wrere 8,583 murders with firearms in the USA, and 851 accidental deaths............for a total of 9,434 involuntary deaths by firearm.

In 2011, there were 32,367 automobile deaths. List of motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now here is the real shocker....in the USA, 390,000 people die each year from smoking, and another almost 50,000 die from second hand smoke...................for a total of 440,000 dead yearly from tobacco. CDC - Fact Sheet - Tobacco-Related Mortality - Smoking & Tobacco Use

Add to that the fact firearms are used in the USA AT LEAST one million times a year for self-defense (how many lives saved??) and you get the idea they are relatively low on the safety issue scale........

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?

 

[tober]

We absolutely agree. Culture is the cause of murder rates. The culture of fatherlessness and violence in US inner cities drives there murder rate.

No question. IMO making easily concealable handguns accessible in large numbers to that milieu makes America's gun murder rates inevitable. Flooding the US market with handguns accomplishes exactly that.

A neighbour of mine's daughter visits from Missouri every summer with her husband for about six weeks while he trains hunting dogs. This summer I asked her if all the horror stories we hear about guns in America are restricted to big cities and the ghettos. She said that they live in a small town in Missouri where many people are armed, and there are lots of shootings. She said neither she nor her husband carry handguns. They just know where not to go. We didn't discuss numbers so I don't know what she means by "lots". Obviously its a subjective description.

Many guys on a site I used to post said that in their opinions (they were American) America is a violent culture and that is why the shooting rates are so high. I tend to accept that as a part of the problem. However America is also a civilized rule of law culture, and I do not believe the problem is unsolvable. It just isn't solvable quickly.

 

[Colpy]

I

4. If adding more guns to the milieu was an effective answer, America would have the lowest per 100,000 casualty list and be the safest country from gun violence of all the countries in the chart.


Again, this is just an opinion. If you think it is illogical, tell me why?

It flies in the face of the facts.

In recent decades, American gun laws have actually become less restrictive, and gun sales are at record levels......and the murder rate is at its lowest level since 1961.

No question. IMO making easily concealable handguns accessible in large numbers to that milieu makes America's gun murder rates inevitable. Flooding the US market with handguns accomplishes exactly that.

A neighbour of mine's daughter visits from Missouri every summer with her husband for about six weeks while he trains hunting dogs. This summer I asked her if all the horror stories we hear about guns in America are restricted to big cities and the ghettos. She said that they live in a small town in Missouri where many people are armed, and there are lots of shootings. She said neither she nor her husband carry handguns. They just know where not to go. We didn't discuss numbers so I don't know what she means by "lots". Obviously its a subjective description.

Many guys on a site I used to post said that in their opinions (they were American) America is a violent culture and that is why the shooting rates are so high. I tend to accept that as a part of the problem. However America is also a civilized rule of law culture, and I do not believe the problem is unsolvable. It just isn't solvable quickly.
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That's right....it is culture.....so WHY are we talking about guns???

 

[tober]

It flies in the face of the facts.

In recent decades, American gun laws have actually become less restrictive, and gun sales are at record levels......and the murder rate is at its lowest level since 1961.

It is impossible to make sense of "murder rate" without seeing the raw data and methodology for every year compared. If the measuring criteria is in the least different between years, the comparison will be skewed. For example many studies measure only "murders" and define murder to mean a person was convicted of an intentional killing. Many authors have written that only a small percentage of murders result in convictions. Many people are tried but not convicted. All killings where nobody is caught are out of the measure. That includes people dredged out of rivers with their hands tied and their feet in a bucket of cement, or people found lying dead whose wallets are emptied and who were shot in the back. Those deaths are not counted as “murders”.


Essentially it is not an honest debate - and I am NOT accusing anybody here of dishonesty. The stakes are seen as too high by US interests with millions of dollars on the line. It is an emotional, highly controversial issue. There is no point in trying to quote statistics. No matter what the argument or statistics neither of us is going to change our minds.

One reason I enjoy the debate is that for most of my life I was on the same side as you. I am a hunter and a shooter. I am familiar with the arguments. I know where much of the BS is hidden, and I enjoy the process of dissecting the logic of the debate.

Colpy,

I just read a number of your posts in my email that are not appearing here. As well, the last post I made had to be repaired numerous time before it went on screen the way I typed it. I have been using an old laptop while my newer one was out for repair, so I don't know if the issue is on the site or my laptop. I will respond to one of your posts (the easiest to remember) then go see if my new computer is working - it was delivered home yesterday.

You asked why talk guns if the issue is culture? Because the cultural issue is technologically oriented, the technology is part of the issue. We cannot talk about solutions for impaired driving deaths without reference to alcohol and motor vehicles. Ditto with guns and shooting deaths. It is that simple, IMO.

My two personal concerns are handguns and modern, high capacity military weapons. I think Canada has arrived at a reasonable compromise. I don't like all the rules, but I can live with them. I'm not interested in discussing how every sporting weapon was at one time a military weapon – I specified “modern, high capacity military weapons”. In Canada guns are for sports. Every hunting weapon can be used for defence, so we have the defensive function once we legally possess a firearm. People who say they want a gun just for defence are essentially saying they feel the need to own a gun to shoot other people with. Given how easy it is to get around that loophole, somebody making an issue out of his need to be able to shoot people should go home and re-think it. If he is unable to give up his position, nothing stops him from applying then challenging a refusal in court. This rule of law approach is an accepted Canadian solution.

Time to go see if my new computer is repaired, and if so whether it will serve me better here. Damn Windows 8 anyway.

 

[Colpy]

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It is impossible to make sense of "murder rate" without seeing the raw data and methodology for every year compared. If the measuring criteria is in the least different between years, the comparison will be skewed. For example many studies measure only "murders" and define murder to mean a person was convicted of an intentional killing. Many authors have written that only a small percentage of murders result in convictions. Many people are tried but not convicted. All killings where nobody is caught are out of the measure. That includes people dredged out of rivers with their hands tied and their feet in a bucket of cement, or people found lying dead whose wallets are emptied and who were shot in the back. Those deaths are not counted as “murders”.


Essentially it is not an honest debate - and I am NOT accusing anybody here of dishonesty. The stakes are seen as too high by US interests with millions of dollars on the line. It is an emotional, highly controversial issue. There is no point in trying to quote statistics. No matter what the argument or statistics neither of us is going to change our minds.

One reason I enjoy the debate is that for most of my life I was on the same side as you. I am a hunter and a shooter. I am familiar with the arguments. I know where much of the BS is hidden, and I enjoy the process of dissecting the logic of the debate.

Colpy,

I just read a number of your posts in my email that are not appearing here. As well, the last post I made had to be repaired numerous time before it went on screen the way I typed it. I have been using an old laptop while my newer one was out for repair, so I don't know if the issue is on the site or my laptop. I will respond to one of your posts (the easiest to remember) then go see if my new computer is working - it was delivered home yesterday.

You asked why talk guns if the issue is culture? Because the cultural issue is technologically oriented, the technology is part of the issue. We cannot talk about solutions for impaired driving deaths without reference to alcohol and motor vehicles. Ditto with guns and shooting deaths. It is that simple, IMO.

My two personal concerns are handguns and modern, high capacity military weapons. I think Canada has arrived at a reasonable compromise. I don't like all the rules, but I can live with them. I'm not interested in discussing how every sporting weapon was at one time a military weapon – I specified “modern, high capacity military weapons”. In Canada guns are for sports. Every hunting weapon can be used for defence, so we have the defensive function once we legally possess a firearm. People who say they want a gun just for defence are essentially saying they feel the need to own a gun to shoot other people with. Given how easy it is to get around that loophole, somebody making an issue out of his need to be able to shoot people should go home and re-think it. If he is unable to give up his position, nothing stops him from applying then challenging a refusal in court. This rule of law approach is an accepted Canadian solution.

Time to go see if my new computer is repaired, and if so whether it will serve me better here. Damn Windows 8 anyway.

It is the site.