My point of view


Dexter Sinister
+1
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

There are some Messianic Jews. Moreover, I have quoted from the Koran repeatedly to show that Muslims acknowledge Jesus as Messiah. As for who is ''chosen'' the Bible indicates that all 12 Hebraic tribes (not just one) are heirs to the Promise made to Abraham. In the New Testament, all Christians are now ''fellowheirs''. Since Muslims acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, they, too, are ''chosen''. I have supplied quotes from the Bible to prove these points in the past. Regardless of one's outlook, all religions deserve the same respect.

No, Muslims do not acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, I've questioned Muslims closely on that. Jesus is only another prophet in the line that began in the Old Testament and ends with Mohammed. I would, however, agree that all religions deserve the same respect, with the additional stipulation that the amount of respect due them is none. Note that I mean the religions themselves, not the people who follow them. Most of the people I know in real life are religious to varying degrees and I don't disrespect them, I just think they're wrong.
 
gopher
+1
#62
Hit the search button for my earlier quotes from the Koran which will easily refute your beliefs.
 
CDNBear
#63
In the Quran (external - login to view), there are many stories about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ (called 'Isa in Arabic). The Quran recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, the miracles he performed by God's permission, and his life as a respected prophet of God. The Quran also repeatedly reminds that Jesus was a human prophet sent by God, not part of God Himself.

What does the Quran say about Jesus? (external - login to view)

By Huda (external - login to view)
 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#64
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

Hit the search button for my earlier quotes from the Koran which will easily refute your beliefs.

No, I don't think I'll bother, you were wrong then and you're wrong now. Muslims view Jesus as the messiah (= leader and deliverer in this context) for the children of Israel, not as the messiah for themselves, to them he's just another prophet and Mohammed's message supersedes his. You're not fully grasping the subtleties of theological argument.
 
Spade
+2
#65
"Theological argument is postulation in the dark by the unenlightened." - so sayeth the sooth sayer.
 
Dexter Sinister
#66
Probably true, but given a set of religious texts it's always possible to argue about what they really mean and how the followers interpret them.
 
tibear
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by oceandeepView Post

For God so love the world, why did he allow the continuous power growth of the vatican and left majority of the people suffer?



Some further explanation is required please. How do you correlate the vatican with the suffering of people?
 
Spade
#68
The same way you correlate capitalism with suffering.
 
tibear
+1
#69
and how EXACTLY would you correlate the vatican with the suffering of the majority of people?
 
Dexter Sinister
#70
I think you're misreading it. The OP presents the growth of the Vatican and human suffering as two separate things. The clear implication is that oceandeep feels they're both bad things, but I don't see the claim that there's correlation or causation between them, the objection is simply that they both continue to exist.
 
gerryh
#71
Quote: Originally Posted by oceandeepView Post

For God so love the world, why did he allow the continuous power growth of the vatican and left majority of the people suffer?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

I think you're misreading it. The OP presents the growth of the Vatican and human suffering as two separate things. The clear implication is that oceandeep feels they're both bad things, but I don't see the claim that there's correlation or causation between them, the objection is simply that they both continue to exist.


I don't think the op is being misread. Notice the use of the connecting word "and". For me, and obviously others also, the clear implication is a connection. Obviously you made the same connection.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

It's not just the Vatican, no religion has ever produced an adequate explanation for human suffering. The simplest explanation is that god is a human invention and has no reality except as an idea. That's my point of view.


If there is no connection being made, then why did you make a definitive connection with this one?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

No I'm not, I think it's peddling nonsense in both those roles, some of it quite harmful, like trying to prevent the dissemination of information about modern contraception in the Third World.

how about the troll come back and clarify the statements.
 
Spade
#72
Bison and human suffering; what's the correlation? Almost 1. Maybe even 1.
 
Dexter Sinister
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

how about the troll come back and clarify the statements.

How about you learn to read without your usual blinders on.
 
Cliffy
+1
#74
Quote: Originally Posted by oceandeepView Post

For God so love the world, why did he allow the continuous power growth of the vatican and left majority of the people suffer?

I think the OP doesn't correlate the growth of the Vatican with poverty but that God seems to favour the rich while ignoring the poor. I think the definitive word is not AND but LEFT.
 
Spade
#75
Ohhh.
If Gawd so loved the world, why did (s)he allow the power of Vatican to grow while (at the same time) leaving ordinary people to suffer?

Answer: Favouritism
 
talloola
#76
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

It's not just the Vatican, no religion has ever produced an adequate explanation for human suffering. The simplest explanation is that god is a human invention and has no reality except as an idea. That's my point of view.

that is the point of view of many my friend, you are not alone.
 
gerryh
+2
#77
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Ohhh.
If Gawd so loved the world, why did (s)he allow the power of Vatican to grow while (at the same time) leaving ordinary people to suffer?

Answer: Favouritism


Now, see, that is A LOT more clear.
 
Spade
#78
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Now, see, that is A LOT more clear.

Hope that's sincere, as I am a sensitive clot.
 
gopher
+2
#79
For the 30th time, Jesus specifically called Messiah p 65, 66: Koran ~ Rodwell translation, Jones editor - published 1909, reprinted 2003.
 
Cannuck
#80
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

For the 30th time, Jesus specifically called Messiah p 65, 66: Koran ~ Rodwell translation, Jones editor - published 1909, reprinted 2003.

I'm guessing that should put it in Al-i-'Imran. Do you have the verse number?
 
L Gilbert
#81
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Bison and human suffering; what's the correlation? Almost 1. Maybe even 1.

Or apples and oranges. The connection? Fruit. Does that mean they come from the same tree? Nope.
 
Dexter Sinister
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

For the 30th time, Jesus specifically called Messiah p 65, 66: Koran ~ Rodwell translation, Jones editor - published 1909, reprinted 2003.

Sure, and would you cite the Bible's rules in Leviticus and Deuteronomy as being representative of what modern Christians believe? It's not that straightforward, if you want to know what modern Muslims think you have to talk to them. Jesus is not a messiah to them.
 
tibear
#83
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

How about you learn to read without your usual blinders on.

All I'm asking for is a clarification of your question.......is that so hard?
 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#84
Quote: Originally Posted by tibearView Post

All I'm asking for is a clarification of your question.......is that so hard?

No, that's not hard, if I know what question you're referring to, but I don't recall asking a question here, except perhaps a rhetorical one. My comment wasn't directed at you, it was at gerryh, who seems to think the OP is a troll for asking a legitimate question that's exercised philosophers and theologians for millennia, about the problems of evil and suffering. What is it you want clarification on?
Last edited by Dexter Sinister; Mar 31st, 2012 at 05:35 PM..
 
gopher
+2
#85
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

Sure, and would you cite the Bible's rules in Leviticus and Deuteronomy as being representative of what modern Christians believe? It's not that straightforward, if you want to know what modern Muslims think you have to talk to them. Jesus is not a messiah to them.

OK. Believe what you want. End of argument.
 
Cannuck
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

For the 30th time, Jesus specifically called Messiah p 65, 66: Koran ~ Rodwell translation, Jones editor - published 1909, reprinted 2003.

Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

I'm guessing that should put it in Al-i-'Imran. Do you have the verse number?

Ahem...
 
Dexter Sinister
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

OK. Believe what you want. End of argument.

I believe what the evidence points to. No contemporary Muslims would tell you they accept Jesus as a Messiah for themselves.
 
MHz
#88
That doesn't stop Him from being it though, some Jews feel the very same way, it doesn't mean they won't have to adapt to facts when they present themselves.
 
Dexter Sinister
+1
#89
Of course not, what anyone believes about Jesus doesn't alter whatever he really was or is, but that's not what the discussion was about, it was about who Jesus is in Islam. Look up "Jesus in Islam" in Wikipedia, or read the Quran, it's quite clear, the Quran does indeed call him a messiah, but specifically for the children of Israel, not for Muslims.
 

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