Conservative 'Robocalls' tricked voters in last election


Colpy
#511
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Who was? Lawrence Martin, Paul Bryan or Stephen Harper?

Sorry, I wasn't very clear....

On the issue of Elections Canada jumping all over a guy for posting election results............Stephen Harper was completely correct.
 
Vanni Fucci
#512
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

On the issue of Elections Canada jumping all over a guy for posting election results............Stephen Harper was completely correct.

I disagree...the rules are there to prevent voters in the west from being influenced by the results of polls in the east...seems pretty straightforward and logical to me...
 
JLM
+1
#513
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

I disagree...the rules are there to prevent voters in the west from being influenced by the results of polls in the east...seems pretty straightforward and logical to me...

Rules that were enacted about 1922 when radio first came on the scene............definitely not realistic today. How many serious voters are going to wait until the end of the and then run down to the polling station to vote in accordance to what people back east are doing or not doing? Let's suppose there's half a dozen who do, the votes will likely balance out among 3 corrupt parties anyway!
 
mentalfloss
#514
Read this yesterday, but not sure if it was mentioned in the thread. Apparently, the CPC have dropped their appeal in the in-and-out scandal. They were pretty adamant about fighting Elections Canada right to the very Supreme Court before this "clearly overblown" robocall thing happened.

I wonder what changed their mind.

Scandal appeal is dropped
 
Vanni Fucci
#515
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Rules that were enacted about 1922 when radio first came on the scene............definitely not realistic today. How many serious voters are going to wait until the end of the and then run down to the polling station to vote in accordance to what people back east are doing or not doing? Let's suppose there's half a dozen who do, the votes will likely balance out among 3 corrupt parties anyway!

Whether you agree with it or not, the rule is there so that the election can be run with a level playing field for all parties...even in the days of radio by your argument that rule would have been irrelevant...at any rate, Paul Bryan broke those rules and was spanked for it...

Which reminds me of some murmurs after last election that Harper might have been cited for a similar infraction for holding an interview and urging people to vote Conservative while the polls were still open...also a big no-no!
 
JLM
#516
Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni FucciView Post

Whether you agree with it or not, the rule is there so that the election can be run with a level playing field for all parties...even in the days of radio by your argument that rule would have been irrelevant...at any rate, Paul Bryan broke those rules and was spanked for it...

Which reminds me of some murmurs after last election that Harper might have been cited for a similar infraction for holding an interview and urging people to vote Conservative while the polls were still open...also a big no-no!

I think rules/laws that can't be enforced are silly. So I phone my brother in Montreal and then go down and vote. Is there anything wrong with that?
 
Vanni Fucci
#517
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I think rules/laws that can't be enforced are silly. So I phone my brother in Montreal and then go down and vote. Is there anything wrong with that?

You're not posting it on a public forum if you were to do that...
 
mentalfloss
#518
Elections Canada denied power to delve deeper

OTTAWA — Prime Minister Stephen Harper is refusing to explain why Conservative MPs rejected a request by Elections Canada for more power to verify campaign financial returns.

Harper’s evasions Tuesday in the House of Commons were held up by Opposition MPs as evidence the Conservatives have something to hide in the growing investigation of fraudulent election-day robocalls.

Left unanswered by Harper was why the government majority on the Procedure and House Affairs Committee balked at giving Mayrand the same investigative powers as his provincial counterparts.

A committee report, adopted Feb. 9 and publicly posted just last week, states that the Conservative majority voted against giving Mayrand the power to compel parties to back up their financial statements with receipts and details.

The committee report says the compliance audit option will indeed cost the parties. But it suggests the Conservatives were also worried about "compliance burdens" of giving Mayrand more power.

"A majority of the members were concerned about the additional compliance burdens that would be placed on political parties, as well as the possible additional costs to Elections Canada in conducting these audits."

In fact, the report says Mayrand would use his increased powers sparingly, such as to "identify a particular expense that may require further explanation and perhaps documentation."

NDP critic David Christopherson was angry and puzzled by the Conservative stance.

"Why would the government of the day deny the chief electoral officer, an agent of Parliament, the power to do their jobs? They’re big on law and order everywhere else. Why aren’t they when it comes to the chief electoral officer?" he demanded.

Elections Canada denied power to delve deeper | The Chronicle Herald (external - login to view)
 
mentalfloss
#519
Angus Reid did a poll of over 1,100 people about the robocall issue.

Here are some of the results of that poll:

Canadians were asked which of the five major federal parties are likely to provide false and misleading information to voters through telephone calls with pre-recorded messages during a political campaign. Only a third of respondents in Canada think the Green Party (32%) and the New Democratic Party (NDP) (33%) are “very likely” or “moderately likely” to rely on this tactic. In Quebec, 32 per cent of respondents think the Bloc Québécois is likely to use robocalls with misleading information.

A majority of Canadians believe the Liberal Party (55%) and the Conservative Party (63%) are likely to provide false and misleading information to voters through telephone calls with pre-recorded messages during a political campaign. In fact, two-in-five Canadians (39%) think the Tories are “very likely” to rely on this tactic.

Half of Canadians (50%)—including 61 per cent of Quebecers—believe that every riding that was the subject of misleading robocalls should have a by-election as soon as possible, and four-in-five respondents (81%) want to hold an independent investigation to find out exactly who was behind any misleading robocalls that may have been made in the May 2011 federal election.


Some fancy tables:










www.angus-reid.com/wp-content...ocalls_CAN.pdf (external - login to view)
 
TenPenny
+3
#520
Anyone found to be involved in the Robocalls should not be allowed to be elected or employed by the government, or work or volunteer for any political party for 10 years.
 
Goober
#521
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

Anyone found to be involved in the Robocalls should not be allowed to be elected or employed by the government, or work or volunteer for any political party for 10 years.

Sometime I wish we could hook up politicians to an array of lie detectors, persons that are experts in facial - body movements so as to judge the veracity of their statements.

Then there are those times where it would be a waste of resources.

Case in point
The Maestro in action. Harper must have a strong stomach for BS.

Dan Arnold: Dean Del Mastro, knower of everything, handles robocall with a straight face | Full Comment | National Post

On previous episodes of Dean Del Mastro: Knower of Everything, Dean didn’t trust the survey results in a Peterborough newspaper poll, so he commissioned his own robo-push poll, in an effort to “protect democracy”. Then, last week Dean argued the Liberals used a U.S. call centre and the Tories never did, despite Evan Solomon presenting him with irrefutable evidence showing the exact opposite of what Dean was saying.

So yes, we shouldn’t expect logic to be in abundant supply when Dean Del Mastro opens his mouth. But still, Tuesday‘s spin from Dean is priceless:

Del Mastro, the prime minister’s parliamentary secretary and the lead Tory on the file, demanded again that the Liberals release their phone records to prove they weren’t behind the misleading phone calls.

“It’s … clear that the Liberal Party spent millions of dollars to contact hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of homes right across this country. It appears they had given them some incorrect information but the Liberal leader is sitting on all of this information while he makes unsubstantiated smears,” Del Mastro said.

Speaking to reporters after question period, Del Mastro denied making any allegations.

“No, in fact I haven’t made any allegations,” he said. “The Liberal Party has made … allegations about our party that we in fact contacted Liberal supporters. We did no such thing.”

The Conservative Party doesn’t need to provide its own records, he said “because obviously our party is not behind these calls, we know that.”
So we have Del Mastro making allegations, then saying he hasn’t made allegations an hour later – but that’s par for the course in politics. The gem in this article is Dean’s claim that the Conservatives don’t need to provide their phone records because he knows they are not behind these calls. All the while demanding the Liberals release their records.

Peter Goldring tried that line of logic when he refused to blow a breathalyzer last year, and it didn’t work out so well for him — “Officer, I don’t need to blow because I know I’m under the legal limit…go pull over that driver and test him”.

At first, I thought the Prime Minister’s Office made a tactical error placing Del Mastro as the point man on Robocon, but it’s clear no one else in the party would be able to regurgitate these talking points with a straight face. When it comes to spouting nonsense and believing it, Del Mastro is the maestro.
 
mentalfloss
#522
Actually it's starting to show that even Del Mastro is getting tired of his own robo responses.

QP today was an absolute joke - he's not even trying anymore.
 
DaSleeper
+3
#523
I equate people regularly watching "Question Period" with watching Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson or Benny Hinn....

And the party faithful nod in acquiescence every time one of their favorite asks a question, and when the question doesn't get answered to their liking they blame the sitting government without even realizing that politicians of all stripes can speak fo 5 minutes without without answering a question.. and those who believe otherwise have to be partisan to the core
 
CDNBear
#524
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Well we didn't have any where near as many bureaucrats then.

This is true.
 
mentalfloss
+1
#525
NDP just scored 500 keener points.

Conservatives now support NDP move to increase Elections Canada's powers (external - login to view)
 
CDNBear
#526
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

NDP just scored 500 keener points.

Conservatives now support NDP move to increase Elections Canada's powers (external - login to view)

Prudent move.

How does that fit into the overall opinion of their guilt Fuzzy?

Oh and the other question I asked that you missed.... Do you support Meier lawsuit, against Martin?
 
Dexter Sinister
+2
#527
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

... politicians of all stripes can speak for 5 minutes without without answering a question..

Five minutes? Most of them are way better than that. I knew a professor at the U of S who told me once that on behalf of the CBC he spent about 8 hours over three days interviewing Réal Caouette (external - login to view) for a documentary on the Social Credit Party and they found on playing the tapes afterward that they couldn't get even 5 minutes of usable material out of it. The man said nothing of substance in 8 hours of conversation with a pretty sharp, well-informed guy.
 
Goober
#528
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Prudent move.

How does that fit into the overall opinion of their guilt Fuzzy?

Oh and the other question I asked that you missed.... Do you support Meier lawsuit, against Martin?

I would say Harper's pledge of transparency in Govt. Accountability in particular.
 
Dexter Sinister
#529
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

On the issue of Elections Canada jumping all over a guy for posting election results............Stephen Harper was completely correct.

No he wasn't, the guy broke the law, it's exactly that simple, and the law's there for a good and sufficient reason. I don't recall how many times I've turned on the tv at 8 p.m. on election day only to hear that the election has already been decided. If everybody in Canada west of Ontario had known that 2 hours earlier, you think that wouldn't have made any difference in people voting? A lot of voting takes place in the last few hours the polls are open.
 
mentalfloss
#530
This is coming down to telephone records for each party. If Elections Canada finds that third parties like "Pierre Poutine" made calls to a set of voters that are on any government party's list, then they have some pretty hard evidence to show that both parties are linked.

Really good article that sums up the culpability of this issue..
--

Election fraud frighteningly easy call to make

The question isn't why it happened, but rather why did it take so long to happen?

The federal political arena continues to suffer seismic tremors from the allegation the Conservative party organized a malicious automated-phone campaign to direct voters to the wrong polling stations on election day last May. Targeting voters unlikely to support the Conservatives, the campaign was allegedly key in suppressing the anti-Tory vote in closely fought ridings. The theory, still unproven, is this manipulation resulted in the Tories winning a majority government.

As the narrative of this story has unfolded, we're all learning about modern campaign tactics and technology. That "voter-suppression" tactics are just as important as "voter-identification" tactics. And, that managed meticulously, almost any citizen with enough money can anonymously corrupt an election. It's a frightening realization, and one that experienced campaign organizers have predicted for some time.

"I know a lot of people who have said for years, 'You know, with a prepaid credit card and a burner cellphone, you could really cause a lot of trouble,' " said Robert Ermel, head of the University of Manitoba's Institute of Policy Research and a former Liberal campaign architect. "You don't need ID to get the card or the phone. You don't need ID to set up an account with a call centre. You don't have to provide your real name, or your address. And you can broadcast almost any message to thousands of people for pennies."

Ermel said it can cost as little as 10 cents to do an automated-message blast to a single constituency. If you want to hit 15,000 homes, that would cost $1,500, which is chump change for a local or national campaign. And the best part is, nobody ever has to know exactly who paid for the calls.

Although Elections Canada is nowhere near the end of its investigation, it's clear at least some of the phone calls sending voters to the wrong polling stations were generated by a call-centre account opened by the tragically named "Pierre Poutine," who also used an anonymous PayPal account to pay for the phone blast and made contact with the call centre using a disposable cellphone.

These details boost suspicion this was the work of a group of third-party, political civilians, rather than official campaign operatives.

"What if you had a group of well-heeled supporters who didn't like the limits on donations to political parties, and had money to spend to help get their party elected?" said Ermel. "What if they threw a bunch of money into a pot and paid for a phone blast? They could cause all kinds of trouble and be virtually untouchable."

This is the doomsday scenario among campaign technologists and strategists: a well-funded, sophisticated, untraceable effort by a faceless cabal bent on perverting the electoral system. In the United States, the allegedly independent Super PACs spend millions and millions of dollars supporting certain candidates and assailing others out in the open. But at least they do it out in the open. In Canada, as we're seeing with robocalls, technology has created fertile ground for wealthy, motivated third parties to pervert democracy deep underground.

If this turns out to be the case, then there is only one remaining way any registered political party could be tied to the robocalls. Although setting up a call-centre account and uploading a voice file with the phone-message blast is easy and anonymous, it is a virtually useless gesture unless you have information on which voters to target. You'd need to know exactly which voters had voted for another party, or were likely to vote for another party. And information like that could only be found in the voter-identification database of a registered political party.

Every party in this country maintains a computerized database of voters in every riding. It includes details on who votes and who doesn't, who has self-identified as a supporter and who self-identifies as supporters of other parties. These are lists that have been built up over years and years of voter-identification grunt work, along with lists of enumerated voters provided by Elections Canada.

The Tory Constituency Information Management System (CIMS) is considered to be the most detailed, most technologically sophisticated of any database maintained by any party. Ermel said it is almost certain there is a record of who viewed or downloaded voter-identification data from CIMS, and ultimately, Elections Canada will have to examine those records to see if they match robocall patterns.

Election Canada's investigation will likely take months, if not longer, to complete. It may well be we won't know well into the next pre-election cycle whether there is a fire worthy of all this smoke. But there certainly is a lot of smoke, and the majority of it is hovering over the governing party.

Election fraud frighteningly easy call to make - Winnipeg Free Press (external - login to view)
--


News:

Toronto riding allowed voters with bogus addresses

CBC News has obtained evidence that unregistered voters got on the voters' list in the Toronto riding of Eglinton-Lawrence in the last election without providing an address, in violation of Elections Canada's own rules.

Joe Volpe lost the race in Eglinton-Lawrence by 4,000 votes, just one of the Liberal veterans to lose his seat in last year’s election.

Volpe was also the first to claim there were misleading Conservative calls to his supporters, allegedly trying to drive down his vote count. Elections Canada dismissed the Volpe compaign's complaint in February.

Asked this week about allegations of dirty tricks in the riding during the election, the winner, Conservative Joe Oliver, called Volpe a “sore loser” and said there was no vote suppression by his side.

“Our objective was to increase voter turnout, and in that we succeeded admirably,” Oliver said.

But documents obtained by CBC News show a late influx of unregistered voters in the riding who got on the voters' list without giving any address. The law requires unregistered voters to provide both a present and former address when filling out a late registration form at a polling station.

A stack of late registration forms shows many provided no address, which is required by the elections law. Others have bogus addresses — a UPS store in one case, a Scotiabank branch in another.

Volpe declined to talk about the voter registration forms, but Liberal campaign lawyer Tony Pascale said he wants Elections Canada to investigate.

“There were an inordinately high number of voters registering who were not on the voters' list, in order to cast ballots,” Pascale said in an interview Wednesday.

Oliver said the increase in voter turnout in his riding was the result of hard work and not dirty tricks. “We increased the voter turnout by 5,000 votes,” Oliver said.

CBC News has learned there were at least 2,700 late registrations in Eglinton-Lawrence, but Elections Canada has declined a request to produce them, so it is unclear how many had phoney addresses, or none at all.

Toronto riding allowed voters with bogus addresses - Politics - CBC News
Last edited by mentalfloss; Mar 8th, 2012 at 08:39 AM..
 
Goober
#531
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

This is coming down to telephone records for each party. If Elections Canada finds that third parties like "Pierre Poutine" made calls to a set of voters that are on any government party's list, then they have some pretty hard evidence to show that both parties are linked.

Really good article that sums up the culpability of this issue..
--

Toronto riding allowed voters with bogus addresses - Politics - CBC News

PC - 21 644 Lib 21 618 total voters list 81 765

Difference of 26 votes

OVR / ROS (external - login to view)

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

PC - 21 644 Lib 21 618 total voters list 81 765

Difference of 26 votes

OVR / ROS (external - login to view)

That was for Eglington Lawrence
 
mentalfloss
#532
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

PC - 21 644 Lib 21 618 total voters list 81 765

Difference of 26 votes

OVR / ROS (external - login to view)



That was for Eglington Lawrence

I am confuse.

The media is reporting he lost by 4,000 votes, but you're saying he lost by 26?
 
Goober
+1
#533
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

I am confuse.

The media is reporting he lost by 4,000 votes, but you're saying he lost by 26?

I listed the link - This is the second time I have posted this result. From Elections Canada. Please check it out.
Go to Poll by Poll Results - Drops down by Provine then look under Ontario for the riding.

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post



I listed the link - This is the second time I have posted this result. From Elections Canada. Please check it out.
Go to Poll by Poll Results - Drops down by Provine then look under Ontario for the riding.

My mistake - It was Etobicoke Center. Volpe did lose by a large number
 
mentalfloss
+2 / -1
#534
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

I listed the link - This is the second time I have posted this result. From Elections Canada. Please check it out.
Go to Poll by Poll Results - Drops down by Provine then look under Ontario for the riding.

If I was a Bear, I could be demeaning and put you down for this mistake, but I'll let it go.
 
Goober
#535
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

If I was a Bear, I could be demeaning and put you down for this mistake, but I'll let it go.

Another example of Harper and his Merry Gang of screw ups again shooting themselves in the foot.

Take control of the issue - But that is apparently beyond their ability to comprehend.

Ralph Klein one said paraphrasing - I never say a parade that I did not want to be in front of.

NDP expands Elections Canada motion to cover past votes - Politics - CBC News

A Conservative MP backed away from supporting an NDP motion to give Elections Canada more investigative powers as the NDP tightened the motion so it would apply to previous federal elections, including the 2011 vote at the centre of controversy over fraudulent robocalls and possible dirty tricks.

The Conservative government had said Wednesday it would support an NDP motion that calls on the government to give the chief electoral officer more power for investigating election spending by political parties.

But MP Dean Del Mastro, who has been the party's lead on the issue, said during a speech on the motion that the party wouldn't oppose it, which could mean Conservative MPs will abstain rather than vote for or against.

The change came after the NDP changed the way the motion was phrased so it would allow the chief electoral officer to use his power in investigations into previous elections rather than just elections in the future.

The vote on the non-binding motion will happen Monday.

NDP MP David Christopherson says there will be "hell to pay" if the government doesn't bring in legislation to back up a motion to give Elections Canada more investigative power.
 
Goober
#536
Ah Watson have you noted that the perpetrator did.......................

Pierre Poutine: Closing in on suspect #1 in the robocalls scandal | Full Comment | National Post

Who is Pierre Poutine. If a Liberal God help the party.

Mr. Meier said he had his “Eureka” moment at 3 a.m. one morning, and by 5 a.m. had written a 22 page report for Elections Canada. “He [Pierre Jones] screwed up. Just for a fraction of a second but it was enough for me to find him,” he said.

The information supplied to Elections Canada should expedite the investigation and offer some clues as to whether the robocall was the work of one individual or was the result of a more co-ordinated effort, as the opposition parties have alleged. Mr. Meier said he has only been asked to supply information about the Guelph campaign to date. RackNine supplied automated calling services for 12 Conservative candidates during the 2011 election.

“I was shocked the moment Matthews explained some party had used RackNine’s service in attempt to disrupt voting in the 2011 election,” says Mr. Meier. “Our dialing services have been used successfully by hundreds of campaigns to engage voters and inform them of where and when to vote in many elections. The fact our software was used even once for something like this is devastating and we’re working tirelessly to correct that.”
 
mentalfloss
#537
Guelph Tory campaign worker tweeted robocall alert two days before vote (external - login to view)
 
petros
#538
I've said it before and I'll say it again..."****ing sports fans". That's right, politics is supported like a sports team with millions of bandwagon jumpers and sycophants.
 
JLM
#539
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

I've said it before and I'll say it again..."****ing sports fans". That's right, politics is supported like a sports team with millions of bandwagon jumpers and sycophants.

Petros, my boy, you are among the living. I was checking the obituaries. The forum can use an injection of your wisdom!
 
mentalfloss
+1
#540
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

I've said it before and I'll say it again..."****ing sports fans". That's right, politics is supported like a sports team with millions of bandwagon jumpers and sycophants.

You're so right.
 

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