Maryland Abortion Doctors Charged With Murder


Ariadne
+2
#121
"But state law also defines a fetus as "viable" if "there is a reasonable likelihood of the fetus' sustained survival outside the womb."

Brigham provided abortions to five patients ranging from 18 to 33 weeks pregnant, according to a report by the New Jersey State Board of Medical Examiners.

The determination of whether those fetuses were "viable" could occur in court."

www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...,6693813.story (external - login to view)

There is no question that a 33 week fetus is viable, so there really isn't any debate as to whether there was murder.

Read more about this doctor:

articles.philly.com/2010-07-2...edical-license (external - login to view)

"Steven Chase Brigham, a physician whose medical license has been revoked, relinquished, or temporarily suspended in five states, is now facing regulatory and tax troubles that could jeopardize his chain of 15 abortion clinics.

...Brigham also has to deal with the IRS. In April, it placed $234,536 in liens against him for failing to pay payroll taxes from 2002 to 2006.

... In 1994, New York took his license, finding him guilty of "gross negligence" and "inexcusably bad judgment" involving two late-pregnancy abortions. The patients suffered life-threatening bleeding and required emergency hospital operations, public records show.

...In 1997, Brigham employed an obstetrician-gynecologist who was under suspension for, among other things, sexually molesting patients."
Last edited by Ariadne; Jan 8th, 2012 at 12:34 PM..
 
JLM
+1
#122
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

I gave you a "cute" version of twins playing before birth. Check into it. They play, they fight, they wake each other up if bored. They know what's going on.

It doesn't matter what you do Petros, you are NEVER going to convince people who priortise their own selfish interests!
 
bluebyrd35
#123
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

I gave you a "cute" version of twins playing before birth. Check into it. They play, they fight, they wake each other up if bored. They know what's going on.

Sorry luv they do not. I had twins. And they certainly did not wake each other up, even after they were born. Since they were born six weeks early, they slept in the same bassinette, when they came home, until they were nearly three months old. The main reason they survived was because our Doctor took very extraordinary measures to make sure they survived, because he knew we wanted them.

The girls spent a month in the Montreal Childrens Hospital and they were taken there behind a snowplow in an incubator in a stationwagon with my dr. and a nurse. It was during a snowstorm that closed the roads between our local hospital 50 miles from the Montreal Children's Hospital. Luckily, the roads department was a block away from my hospital, and most of those working there, had had their children delivered by my doctor. The snowplow opened the road all the way to the outskirts of the city.



.
 
gerryh
#124
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

If they took up residence in your body, and you weren't quite ready to take on the world, I bet you would LOL.



No it isn't, not until it draws it first breath .....according to the biblical god in any case. Fortunately, our society frowns on late term abortions, which makes us a bit more civilized than god, I believe.



Nope, if one believes the biblical god, HE alone breathes life into a new born!! It's first breath signals god has done his job!!

Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post


This isn't a threat?? Well geez it sure looks like one to me. And no I do not fear you......unless you happen to be carrying a concealed weapon and have no control over your temper.
Now back to the topic......provide evidence that an embryo knows fear or amusement or any other emotion. Actually,even new borns know only hunger, unless someone deliberately hurts them repeatedly. Then they might associate a person or a repeated event with the hurt. Ever watch a child under 5 months get an injection. They do not fear the needle. They will look startled and then puzzled and then perhaps cry!! A minute later, all smiles again.
How much memory do you have of your time in the womb?
Could that possibly be because you were not yet a sentient individual?? Not yet an aware being ? Of course it was. When a child takes it's first breath, that is the time it begins the long journey to becoming an aware human being. Some even then do not......ie psychopaths. Oh they look normal but they aren't are they??
If that psychopath kills people, or simply injures them, does society have the right to eliminate them?? In my opinion no, because they are already an aware being on the human journey. That journey was interrupted through no fault of their own. The key difference an impregnated cell and even a partially developed aware being is enormous. One has...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post

Regardless of your "now back on topic" none of the above is "on topic". Also, considering you keep "saying" you don't believe in God, why do you keep bringing him up and what does late term abortions have to do with God?

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

It doesn't matter what you do Petros, you are NEVER going to convince people who priortise their own selfish interests!


and for the majority, that is exactly the reason.
 
petros
#125
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

sorry luv they do not. I had twins. And they certainly did not wake each other up, even after they were born. Since they were born six weeks early, they slept in the same bassinette, when they came home, until they were nearly three months old. The main reason they survived was because our doctor took very extraordinary measures to make sure they survived, because he knew we wanted them.

The girls spent a month in the montreal childrens hospital and they were taken there behind a snowplow in an incubator in a stationwagon with my dr. And a nurse. It was during a snowstorm that closed the roads between our local hospital 50 miles from the montreal children's hospital. Luckily, the roads department was a block away from my hospital, and most of those working there, had had their children delivered by my doctor. The snowplow opened the road all the way to the outskirts of the city.



.

bull****!!!!!
 
bluebyrd35
#126
[QUOTE=JLM;1530757]It doesn't matter what you do Petros, you are NEVER going to convince people who priortise their own selfish interests! [/QUOTE

Jesus Murphy, the selfish critters are those who insist their will takes priority over the will of others. How many of these selfish critters have actually adopted any of those unwanted in our institutions. Those with the biggest mouths, usually have the least compassion.
 
Ariadne
+1
#127
It seems the the abortion issue brings some very shady characters to the table. The doctor in question has a long history of legal problems, ranging from financial corruption to a complete disregard for the lives or wellfare of women and their fetuses. On the surface, I get he impression that he views abortion as an easy way to get rich.

I sincerely hope that he is found guilty and that this case does not dissolve into a debate about whether a child is viable at 33 weeks, or when life starts. If a 23 week fetus can be kept alive using currently available medical technologies, then a 33 week fetus that is yanked from its mother's womb and placed in a freezer is nothing short of murder.
 
bluebyrd35
#128
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

bull****!!!!!


True and I still have the Montreal Gazette article on it, tucked in my wedding album in Canada.
 
petros
#129
[QUOTE=bluebyrd35;1530765]
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

It doesn't matter what you do Petros, you are NEVER going to convince people who priortise their own selfish interests! [/QUOTE

Jesus Murphy, the selfish critters are those who insist their will takes priority over the will of others. How many of these selfish critters have actually adopted any of those unwanted in our institutions. Those with the biggest mouths, usually have the least compassion.

You never researched to see if I was right or wrong did you? Do you have any idea what in utero means?
 
bluebyrd35
#130
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

It seems the the abortion issue brings some very shady characters to the table. The doctor in question has a long history of legal problems, ranging from financial corruption to a complete disregard for the lives or wellfare of women and their fetuses. On the surface, I get he impression that he views abortion as an easy way to get rich.

I sincerely hope that he is found guilty and that this case does not dissolve into a debate about whether a child is viable at 33 weeks, or when life starts. If a 23 week fetus can be kept alive using currently available medical technologies, then a 33 week fetus that is yanked from its mother's womb and placed in a freezer is nothing short of murder.

Okay, I can accept that a late term abortion is distasteful and less than civilized. However, what should the punishment be?? Should we execute this doctor??
 
Ariadne
+1
#131
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post


Jesus Murphy, the selfish critters are those who insist their will takes priority over the will of others. How many of these selfish critters have actually adopted any of those unwanted in our institutions. Those with the biggest mouths, usually have the least compassion.

I don't think there's any reason to assume that a 33 week fetus is an unwanted child ... other than suddenly being unwanted by the mother.

Women have a responsibility in their reproductive systems as well. It's one thing to know that a pregnancy isn't an option 8 or 10 weeks after conception. That's a whole two + months to think about it. To suddenly, 7 or 8 months later want to change the decision??? That's completely irresponsble and there's no excuse for it. No doctor should accommodate women like that ... rather, the child should be automatically signed over to an adoption agency with no further contact with the mother for life.
 
petros
+1
#132
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

Okay, I can accept that a late term abortion is distasteful and less than civilized.

What makes early killing of humans any less distasteful?
 
Kreskin
#133
By the time someone gets amnio results it's 15-18 weeks at the earliest. The results of the test are no one's business but the patient and doctor, nor is their medical plan (if any).
 
gerryh
+3
#134
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

Okay, I can accept that a late term abortion is distasteful and less than civilized. However, what should the punishment be?? Should we execute this doctor??


distasteful and less than civilized? The doctor, nurse, useless peice of meat they call a woman, and anyone else that was involved in the murder should be charged with first degree murder and put away for the rest of their useless lives.
 
Ariadne
+2
#135
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

Okay, I can accept that a late term abortion is distasteful and less than civilized. However, what should the punishment be?? Should we execute this doctor??

Distasteful? No. There's absolutely no excuse for it.

It's not like women wake up one day and discover that they are 7-8 months pregnant. They have had 2-3 months (first trimester) to make the decision about having a baby or an abortion, and they've had the better part of a year to make alternate arrangements in the event that they are not in favour of raising a child. Abortion should never be viewed as women having the right to spend 7-8 months to make a decision regarding the life of another. The decision is made early on, and women have a responsibility to stand behind that decision ... not to be wishy washy airheads that think they can change their minds about pregnancy whenever it suits them.

The doctor should have his license permanently revoked throughout the US, not just in the few states where he has already broken several laws, and he should spend time in jail for each of his offences - including terminating the life of a viable infant.

Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

By the time someone gets amnio results it's 15-18 weeks at the earliest. The results of the test are no one's business but the patient and doctor, nor is their medical plan (if any).

Exactly. The woman has the choice of abortion or pregnancy early on. If she decides to proceed with the pregnancy and then discover that there are abnormalities, she has the option of a late term abortion at 18 weeks gestation. There is no excuse for a 33 week abortion.
 
bluebyrd35
#136
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

What about those who are pressured into abortion by bull**** excuses or had it done and kept it a secret their enire lives? How many women do you think have deep regrets once the party is over? If girls weren't emotionally or physically capable of being mother's in their teens the body wouldn't let them.

LOL, very bloody few. It is often those who get talked out of early term abortion that suffer the deep regrets, because they are the ones
who are saddled for life with an unwanted child and little or no support. Oh and what about that unwanted child??

As for that other stupid statement..... In the animal world, too young mothers simply eat their young. Severely,retarded girls certainly can get pregnant and they are certainly not capable of raising them alone. A boy of 13 or 14 can sire children, does that make them perfectly capable of supporting emotionally & physically the girl he impregnated?, never mind those he has sired?
 
petros
#137
Quote:


LOL, very bloody few.

Do some homework into P.A.S.S.
 
Kreskin
#138
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Distasteful? No. There's absolutely no excuse for it.
It's not like women wake up one day and discover that they are 7-8 months pregnant. They have had 2-3 months (first trimester) to make the decision about having a baby or an abortion, and they've had the better part of a year to make alternate arrangements in the event that they are not in favour of raising a child. Abortion should never be viewed as women having the right to spend 7-8 months to make a decision regarding the life of another. The decision is made early on, and women have a responsibility to stand behind that decision ... not to be wishy washy airheads that think they can change their minds about pregnancy whenever it suits them.
The doctor should have his license permanently revoked throughout the US, not just in the few states where he has already broken several laws, and he should spend time in jail for each of his offences - including terminating the life of a viable infant.
Exactly. The woman has the choice of abortion or pregnancy early on. If she decides to proceed with the pregnancy and then discover that there are abnormalities, she has the option of a late term abortion at 18 weeks gestation. There is no excuse for a 33 week abortion.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Not everyone gets an amnio at the earliest possible moment. There can be a lot of things unfold later on.
 
Ariadne
+3
#139
This little girl is three and a half years old (taken NYE 2012). When she was a fetus, her parents decided to have an amniocentesis done. The results were devastating. Doctors informed the parents that the child would have down's syndrome and perhaps other congenital problems. They all recommended a late term abortion. Needless to say, the parents were very upset for the remaining 22 weeks of the pregnancy. At the delivery, they expected the worst. To everyone's surprise, a perfectly healthy, normal, bright, active child was born. As the result of the emotional turmoil associated with the pregnancy, the parents had no more children.

Doctors make serious mistakes regarding the general health of a fetus, so invitro testing is not always a useful tool in deciding late term abortion.



Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

Not everyone gets an amnio at the earliest possible moment. There can be a lot of things unfold later on.

There's no excuse for that. Tests have to be performed at something like 12 -14 weeks and the results take about 3 weeks. Women have 12 weeks to decide if they want an amnio, and they have 12 weeks to decide what they will do if the results indicate abnormalities. Women do not have the right to sit around and decide later when each day and week makes a difference.

Society needs to stop giving women a pass when it comes to pregnancy. There is plenty of time for women to make decisions and there is no room for making one decision and then trying to back out of it months later.
 
Kreskin
#140
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

This little girl is three and a half years old (taken NYE 2012). When she was a fetus, her parents decided to have an amniocentesis done. The results were devastating. Doctors informed the parents that the child would have down's syndrome and perhaps other congenital problems. They all recommended a late term abortion. Needless to say, the parents were very upset for the remaining 22 weeks of the pregnancy. At the delivery, they expected the worst. To everyone's surprise, a perfectly healthy, normal, bright, active child was born. As the result of the emotional turmoil associated with the pregnancy, the parents had no more children.
Doctors make serious mistakes regarding the general health of a fetus, so invitro testing is not always a useful tool in deciding late term abortion.

There's no excuse for that. Tests have to be performed at something like 12 -14 weeks and the results take about 3 weeks. Women have 12 weeks to decide if they want an amnio, and they have 12 weeks to decide what they will do if the results indicate abnormalities. Women do not have the right to sit around and decide later when each day and week makes a difference.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Society needs to get out of peoples personal lives. There are many reasons why things go wrong in pregnancy, and late pregnancy. And if it happened to us I couldn't give a crap what you think of if I decide to do something you don't like.
 
bluebyrd35
#141
[QUOTE=petros;1530768]
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

You never researched to see if I was right or wrong did you? Do you have any idea what in utero means?

LOL.....do you?? I guess I do, since I was a Med.Secretary for years. I even have a degree from McGill to prove it ......imagine that!!

The problem you have with me, is between farming and years as a medical Secretary in an Emergency Dept. I have had those rose coloured glasses ripped right off my face, and I was definitely not a biblical god fan from about 13 years of age.

There is nothing romantic or sacred in a birth. It is messy, and violent without modern medicine. It should depend on whether or not parents want and voluntarily choose to take on the job of having children. It is unfair to everyone involved if they are not prepared to follow through, otherwise the children especially suffer.
 
petros
+1
#142
What Makes Someone Susceptible To Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome?
What is Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome?

Post-abortion stress syndrome, abbreviated as PAS or PASS, is a form of trauma which can occur in a woman after she has had an abortion. It has also been called post-traumatic abortion syndrome. Many women experience brief feelings of sadness or guilt after having an abortion. Women with PASS experience these feelings for a long period of time. These symptoms also often interrupt their everyday lives and can lead to more severe symptoms. This disorder is often compared to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a disorder which is often noticed in military veterans. Many symptoms of these two disorders are similar.
The topic of post-abortion stress syndrome brings about great controversy among pro-life and pro-choice groups everywhere. In fact, there is still much debate regarding whether this problem actually exists, as it is not recognized by the American Psychological Association. Some fear this may only be a syndrome invented by pro-life groups in an attempt to hinder further abortions; others claim they themselves have experienced this problem. Still, other groups of people recognize PASS as a problem but believe it is very rare and mention that giving up a child for adoption would seem to be more traumatic than a typical abortion.
Who is susceptible to Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome?

Certain women may be more susceptible to PASS than other women. Women who may be more susceptible to this form of trauma can include:
  • A woman who felt pressured to have an abortion
  • A woman who experienced her abortion after her first trimester passed
  • A woman who did not consider many different choices
  • A woman who has strong religious views
  • A woman who did not have her baby because it would have a birth defect
  • A woman who did not receive counseling after her abortion
  • A woman who has an unstable lifestyle
  • A woman who was not well informed about her abortion
  • A woman who recognizes that a fetus is a human
  • A woman who rushed and did not give her decision much thought
Symptoms of Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome

Effects of PASS are often very difficult to manage and can involve a variety of risky behaviors. Intensity of these symptoms varies from person to person. Symptoms include:
  • Guilty feelings
  • Poor school and work performance
  • Nightmares
  • Thoughts of suicide
  • Sudden phobias (especially of medical buildings)
  • Poor quality of sleep
  • Self-injury
  • Drug and alcohol abuse requiring the help of a drug rehab facility
  • Irritability
  • Feeling of numbness
  • Relationship complications
  • Constant crying
  • Flashbacks
  • Desire to have a child
  • Anxiety
  • Overprotective of future children
  • Depression
  • Inability to function around babies or pregnant women
  • Panic attacks
  • Inability to make decisions
  • Eating disorder requiring eating disorder treatment
Symptoms of PASS may not occur immediately after one has had an abortion. In many cases, numbness will overcome a woman and the feelings of an abortion will be held back for months or even years. Some women however can live their entire lives and feel perfectly fine after having an abortion. Triggers which may initiate PASS in a woman after having an abortion include seeing another pregnant woman, certain smells or sounds, marriage, or the anniversary date of the abortion.
Women who have had an abortion often feel uncomfortable or ashamed to talk about their experience and thus never seek trauma treatment. These women deserve to find recovery, instead of suffering in loneliness. Trauma treatment centers or depression treatment facilities are excellent places to receive trauma therapy and at last find hope and joy in a renewed life.
 
Ariadne
+2
#143
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post

LOL, very bloody few. It is often those who get talked out of early term abortion that suffer the deep regrets, because they are the ones
who are saddled for life with an unwanted child and little or no support. Oh and what about that unwanted child??

As for that other stupid statement..... In the animal world, too young mothers simply eat their young. Severely,retarded girls certainly can get pregnant and they are certainly not capable of raising them alone. A boy of 13 or 14 can sire children, does that make them perfectly capable of supporting emotionally & physically the girl he impregnated?, never mind those he has sired?

No one is "saddled" with an unwanted child. There are many people that want to adopt chidlren, many couples that pay thousands of dollars for invitro fertilization ... there is a huge industry surrounding producing babies, including medical advances to make 23 week fetuses thrive.
 
petros
#144
[QUOTE=bluebyrd35;1530799]
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post


LOL.....do you?? I guess I do, since I was a Med.Secretary for years. I even have a degree from McGill to prove it ......imagine that!!

The problem you have with me, is between farming and years as a medical Secretary in an Emergency Dept. I have had those rose coloured glasses ripped right off my face, and I was definitely not a biblical god fan from about 13 years of age.

There is nothing romantic or sacred in a birth. It is messy, and violent without modern medicine. It should depend on whether or not parents want and voluntarily choose to take on the job of having children. It is unfair to everyone involved if they are not prepared to follow through, otherwise the children especially suffer.

A secretary? WOW!!!!
 
Ariadne
+1
#145
Quote: Originally Posted by bluebyrd35View Post


LOL.....do you?? I guess I do, since I was a Med.Secretary for years. I even have a degree from McGill to prove it ......imagine that!!

The problem you have with me, is between farming and years as a medical Secretary in an Emergency Dept. I have had those rose coloured glasses ripped right off my face, and I was definitely not a biblical god fan from about 13 years of age.

There is nothing romantic or sacred in a birth. It is messy, and violent without modern medicine. It should depend on whether or not parents want and voluntarily choose to take on the job of having children. It is unfair to everyone involved if they are not prepared to follow through, otherwise the children especially suffer.

Childbirth is violent? That's a new one!

Are you suggesting that women should be allowed to sit around eating bonbons for 8 months, then wake up and decide they don't want to be fat anymore so they can have a 33 week fetus yanked out of them and tossed into the freezer? Isn't there some responsbility on behalf of that pregnant woman to make responsible decisions months earlier?
 
gerryh
+1
#146
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

A secretary? WOW!!!!


I call bullshyte to this to. She/he/it was gang raped, he/she/it had twins in the middle of one of montreals worse winters, prematurely, and she was a medical secretary that worked in an ER. Bullshyte to all of it.



btw...as far as I know, no ER employees a "medical secretary".
 
petros
#147
I know it is full of shyte. It's too obvious.
 
Ariadne
#148
Quote: Originally Posted by KreskinView Post

Society needs to get out of peoples personal lives. There are many reasons why things go wrong in pregnancy, and late pregnancy. And if it happened to us I couldn't give a crap what you think of if I decide to do something you don't like.

If someone commits murder, society needs to do something to ensure that it doesn't happen again through punishment/rehabilitation. The doctor in question (in the article) appears to be a very shady character and I personally believe that if society doesn't step in, there will be more victims.

Is there any circumstance were abortion at 33 weeks gestation is justified? It's not like tests cannot be performed 20 weeks earlier and results known 17 weeks earlier. Why should women have the right to have all the information they need to make an informed decision, yet to sit around and not make a decision for another 4 months?
 
Kreskin
#149
The issue my health is none of your business. If you think it is then all women should be quarantined and monitored for one month after sex to ensure they don't endanger a potential baby, then we can enforce a strict diet for the remaining term.
 
bluebyrd35
#150
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Childbirth is violent? That's a new one!

Are you suggesting that women should be allowed to sit around eating bonbons for 8 months, then wake up and decide they don't want to be fat anymore so they can have a 33 week fetus yanked out of them and tossed into the freezer? Isn't there some responsbility on behalf of that pregnant woman to make responsible decisions months earlier?

It is violent. we have had to put a rope around protruding hooves of a calf more than once and lever it out of the cow when we could not get a vet in time to save them both. Even during normal birthing cows bellow in pain, as do many other species. As for the bonbon remark, well we have progressed somewhat from that belief.

How well educated do you suppose a young, unmarried girl is about amniocentesis? I would say not very well, if she was either too poor or too undeducated to use birthcontrol in the first place. And why do you think even an incompetent abortion dr. simply yanks fetuses out of a woman's body?? How about a bit of reality here. This would kill the woman as well as the fetus.

This sort of simplistic ranting is not conducive to reasonable discussion, anymore a religiously based one is.

"A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream."

There are very few late term abortions done even in Canada where we do not have a law against it. In the US, which does have such a law, it is extremely rare and is an exception. It is more exceptional that a dr. would even consider such a late term abortion. The dr. in this case is clearly incompetent. Did he kill patient undergoing the operation??

To follow this thinking through to it's logical conclusion, if an incompetent dr. killed a person removing a gallstone, should all gallstone operations become illegal and all incompetent drs. charged with murder?? Gee, I guess there would never be another operation done again ever!! There will always be incompetents in all fields, medicine is no exception.
 

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