It's Illegal For The Government To Enforce Laws That Aren't Publicly Disclosed ...

wizard

Time Out
Nov 18, 2011
369
0
16
... it seems to me that it's totally unlawful (not to mention completely unjust) for the canadian government to expect the public to comply with laws that are kept secret from the public ...

... take murder for instance. the government doesn't actually publicly disclose that there's this rule on the books in canada the prohibits the killing of other people. and in fact most laws are exactly the same -- they are concealed and kept hidden from the public. the only laws that the government actually does disclose publicly are the laws regulating how fast we can drive our cars -- the speed limit!!!

... is it legal for the government to prosecute people for violating laws that aren't publicly disclosed? i say no it isn't and as such the failure of the government to disclose all laws basically invalidates the legal system. how can you be expected to comply with laws if you don't know what they are? you can't. and believe me, there are a hell of a lot 'em. just take a look at the canadian criminal code, it's about six inches thick for goodness sake ...

... it seems to me that the rules of personal conduct that are covered in criminal and civil law should be taught early on to young children in elementary school so there's no excuse for not knowing what they are ...

... any comments or opinions?
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
... it seems to me that it's totally unlawful (not to mention completely unjust) for the canadian government to expect the public to comply with laws that are kept secret from the public ...

... take murder for instance. the government doesn't actually publicly disclose that there's this rule on the books in canada the prohibits the killing of other people. and in fact most laws are exactly the same -- they are concealed and kept hidden from the public.

Criminal Code of Canada : http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/index.html

Enjoy.
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,014
24
38
Calgary, AB
You're wrong or at the least chose some very poor words in your post.

First off, the government(s) of Canada do not enforce the laws; they make them and provide oversight for bodies/organizations that do enforce them. There's a subtle, very real difference there.

Secondly, the Criminal Code of Canada, and every other law are public documents: every citizen can access them if they desire (thanks CDNBear for linking the Code while I was typing :p ). Now realistically, most of us wouldn't want to spend the time going through the legalese BS but if we want to, WE CAN.

Third. it is not illegal to prosecute people for crimes they are unaware of. Judges often issue words similar to this:

"Ignorance is no excuse to the Law."

You may think it is unethical but in reality it is not. See point number 2.

Finally, as to education, I think to a degree young people ARE taught a lot of what is acceptable and not, in the eyes of the Law. Often it may not be presented as such (i.e. Kenny 12 yr old may not know he is committing a crime by running into the girls locker room at school but he knows he is not supposed to and at the very least will face sanctions from the school principal). It gets to a point of how much can kids absorb in the time allotted. Part of it is also the responsibility of the parent, to raise kids in a manner that they can contribute to society and respect its laws and values.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
When a law is enacted, it is published in The Royal Gazette.

I think you should read it, obviously, you're a couple of years, or centuries, behind.
--------------------------------------------------------------
When I was a kid, I would sometimes help my mother, who was a librarian, by doing the updates to the library's copy of the statutes of the province and the feds. I think that everyone would benefit from reading those, it's quite illuminating. Stop thinking about what you BELIEVE the law says, and instead read what the law ACTUALLY says.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
Stop thinking about what you BELIEVE the law says, and instead read what the law ACTUALLY says.

How many Canadians would actually do that? Despite the criticism of Wizard, he/she does raise a valid point. People can be fined or jailed because of what is written in the occupational health and safety laws and most people have no idea what is written in there. It's easy to say that the information is available and people should read it. They simply don't and it is a combination of two things. They are not capable of reading it or understanding it and they do not have the time because they are too busy living their lives. Our legal system is too complex for the average person and the system does not take that into account sometimes.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Our legal system is too complex for the average person and the system does not take that into account sometimes.
I really see no reason that we need to change the legal system because it "upsets" you. Maybe you should just harden the**** up!
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
How many Canadians would actually do that? Despite the criticism of Wizard, he/she does raise a valid point. People can be fined or jailed because of what is written in the occupational health and safety laws and most people have no idea what is written in there. It's easy to say that the information is available and people should read it. They simply don't and it is a combination of two things. They are not capable of reading it or understanding it and they do not have the time because they are too busy living their lives. Our legal system is too complex for the average person and the system does not take that into account sometimes.

Amazing, isn't it. That's why we have a class of professionals who are expected to know and understand the laws. You can even hire one, they're in the yellow pages under 'lawyers'.

It's also where the idea that 'ignorance of the law is no exuse' comes from. Just because you're an idiot, you don't get off scot free.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
It's also where the idea that 'ignorance of the law is no exuse' comes from. Just because you're an idiot, you don't get off scot free.

Speaking of idiots, only an idiot would suggest that only idiots are ignorant of the law. That's why we have a class of professionals who are expected to know and understand the laws. You can even hire one, they're in the yellow pages under 'lawyers'......but they only help you (before the fact) if you are aware of the law.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
Speaking of idiots, only an idiot would suggest that only idiots are ignorant of the law. That's why we have a class of professionals who are expected to know and understand the laws. You can even hire one, they're in the yellow pages under 'lawyers'......but they only help you (before the fact) if you are aware of the law.

You don't know how to read, do you?

Speaking of idiots, only an idiot would suggest that only idiots are ignorant of the law. That's why we have a class of professionals who are expected to know and understand the laws. You can even hire one, they're in the yellow pages under 'lawyers'......but they only help you (before the fact) if you are aware of the law.

Can you show me where I suggested that only idiots are ignorant of the law?
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
Can you show me where I suggested that only idiots are ignorant of the law?

It's also where the idea that 'ignorance of the law is no exuse' comes from. Just because you're an idiot, you don't get off scot free.

If you aren't connecting the two, perhaps a new paragraph might be in order to eliminate confusion.

So are you now saying that people with average (and maybe even above average) intelligence may be ignorant of the law in some cases?
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
0
36
Edson, AB
I do know the axiom 'ignorance of the law is not a defense' but realistically if an average person were to read to the point of comprehension every law and statute in the CCC and all the various acts both federal and provincial it would take a lifetime. Even lawyers specialize in certain fields because these 'professionals' cannot possibly know all there is to know. Bring into the equation that most laws , especially in the Acts, are written in complex legalese and sometimes take a team of high-priced lawyers to decipher. This leaves us in quite a conundrum whereby we are to be bound by laws that we do not know and most of the time cannot understand completely. Just try to read and understand the Land Title Act or even worse the Income Tax Act.

I would say the OP has a reasonable question as to the validity of a lot of the justice system given the complexity of the language it uses and the shear volume of laws. The government and justice system have to know there is no possible way for us not to be ignorant of a huge portion of the rules we are supposed to follow which is why the 'ignorance is not a defense' clause is in place.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
The reason it's in place is because there are guys like the OP who aren't aware there are existing laws against murder.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
I would say the OP has a reasonable question as to the validity of a lot of the justice system given the complexity of the language it uses and the shear volume of laws. The government and justice system have to know there is no possible way for us not to be ignorant of a huge portion of the rules we are supposed to follow which is why the 'ignorance is not a defense' clause is in place.
The criminal code is quite easy to understand.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
The reason it's in place is because there are guys like the OP who aren't aware there are existing laws against murder.

I'm disappointed. Clearly the case of murder was being used as an example. While I wouldn't expect some of the forum simpletons to grasp the general gist behind the OP, I've come to expect a little more from you.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
I'm disappointed. Clearly the case of murder was being used as an example. While I wouldn't expect some of the forum simpletons to grasp the general gist behind the OP, I've come to expect a little more from you.
Why? I don't expect much from me.