financial collapse


JLM
#91
I think all the hysteria we've heard in the past few days will blow over be it a week a month or a year. Actually it's probably a blessing in disguise, as it gives the rich people and capitalists a chance to feel what it's like to be poor. For those that are smart it's a great opportunity to prosper, there's a lot of stuff at "bargain basement" prices which can be regarded the same way you regard your Safeway flyer. Just part of cycle that happens every few years & just as predictable as July follows January.
 
petros
#92
I admire you optimism but...
 
Tonington
#93
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Actually it's probably a blessing in disguise, as it gives the rich people and capitalists a chance to feel what it's like to be poor.

I doubt they will feel what it's like to be poor. Maybe they have to sell one of their summer homes. Tough choice, the one in the Hamptons, or the one in Malibu? Tough choices ahead...
 
JLM
#94
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

I doubt they will feel what it's like to be poor. Maybe they have to sell one of their summer homes. Tough choice, the one in the Hamptons, or the one in Malibu? Tough choices ahead...

They won't feel the poverty but they'll feel the paranoia, people in those circles are deathly afraid of falling out of step with the "Joneses"- imagine having to spend your holidays sleeping in a tent and cooking over a campfire and reading library books!
 
petros
#95
Global Currency by spring.....
 
Tonington
#96
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

They won't feel the poverty but they'll feel the paranoia, people in those circles are deathly afraid of falling out of step with the "Joneses"- imagine having to spend your holidays sleeping in a tent and cooking over a campfire and reading library books!

I'm sure they'll just take their money and move it into something else. Lower prices are opportunities...
 
petros
#97
If you can hold out until profits and growth return.

9229 jobs posted in Saskatchewan today

SaskJobs.ca - Real Careers. Real Life. (external - login to view)
 
Ocean Breeze
#98
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

Well, Rick Perry will be leading a prayer rally, I guess they have to pray even harder now.

that is all we need. some religious fanatic spewing platitudes while america burns. What ever happened to the REASON mankind was granted?? Maybe a little common sense would be refreshing. How about some logic and the use of problem solving techniques ??

all this bickering and politiking has made the bozos running the asylum lose perspective about why there are in office in the first place. Hint: it is to work for the PEOPLE......who elected them.....and NOT for the perks so many greedily enjoy.
 
JLM
#99
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

I'm sure they'll just take their money and move it into something else. Lower prices are opportunities...

Yep, but did you have to spoil my fun gloating?
 
Tonington
+1
#100
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Yep, but did you have to spoil my fun gloating?

No, I didn't have to, I'm just mean like that
 
Tonington
#101
Some funny business going on with that S&P downgrade of US credit rating.

www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article29477.html (external - login to view)
Jack Barnes writes : Someone dropped a bomb on the bond market Thursday - a $1 billion Armageddon trade betting the United States will lose its AAA credit rating. In one moment, an invisible trader placed a single trade that moved the most liquid debt market in the world. The massive trade wasn't placed in bonds themselves; it was placed in the futures market.

The trade was for block trades of 5,370 10-year Treasury futures executed at 124-03 and 3,100 Treasury bond futures executed at 125-01. The value of the trade was about $850 million dollars. In simple terms, if that was a direct bond buy, no one would be talking about it.

However, with the use of futures, you have to have margin capacity behind the trade. That means with a single push of a button someone was willing to commit more than $1 billion of real capital to this trade with expectations of a 10-to-1 return ratio. You only do this if you see an edge.

This means someone is confident that the United States is either going to default or is going to lose its AAA rating. That someone is willing to bet the proverbial farm that U.S. interest rates will be going up. I believe what happened is a debt-ceiling deal was done in Washington and leaked to a major proprietary trader. Everyone knows the debt negotiations in Washington have been an extreme game of brinksmanship between political parties, but now someone knows how that game played out.

This had the hallmarks of one of the largest bond shops in the world knowing something the rest of the market didn't. The number of shops or even central banks that can take on this level of market risk is extremely small. Some that come to mind are hedge fund manager John Paulson, Bill Gross's PIMCO, and the U.S. and Chinese central banks. Paulson already scored big - about $6 billion big - on a similar trade years ago when he bet against subprime mortgages, the investments that helped bring down Lehman Bros. and many other investors. Whoever was behind it wanted a trade on ASAP, and didn't care about the ripples they would cause.
That and this:
Standard and Poor’s Should Not Be Able to Play Kingmaker in the 2012 Election | Firedoglake (external - login to view)
Standard and Poors is evidently meeting with high-stakes gamblers and letting them know where to place their bets as they manipulate the global economy. But they are also playing a much more sinister game. Like a cat toying with a mouse, they are also inserting themselves in the political process and setting themselves up to be kingmaker in the 2012 election. An item in Politico’s Morning Money caught my eye:
BEHIND THE MUSIC – S&P’s John Chambers has met with a number of big investors include Pimco’s Mohammed El-Erian. Apparently he is telling them he prefers Reid’s plan.


CNN’s Erin Burnett also tweets (external - login to view) that the “source who met with Standard and Poors says SIZE of Boehner plan is the problem.MIGHT not be enough to avert downgrade,needs to be closer to $3TR all at once.”

If these reports are correct, S&P is meeting privately with big investors and giving them information that they are not giving the public about about what their research says, what position they will take, and what they intend to do with regard to a potential credit downgrade of US debt. This appears to be “selective disclosure” to big investors on the part of Standard and Poor’s. And while putting a $4 trillion number on a deficit reduction package might be in violation of the IOSCO code of conduct (external - login to view), “selective disclosure” is in violation of SEC rules.
Looks like more Wall Street shenanigans.
 
SLM
+1
#102
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

Looks like more Wall Street shenanigans.

There are always shenanigans on Wall Street. So much so they probably should be adding the word "Shenanigans" to the street sign.

And the cross street should be called "We Will Never Learn Boulevard".
 
petros
#103
Uncovering the scam and accepting it as reality might get you labelled as a conspiracy theory nutter.
 
coldstream
#104
People should realize first of all that Standard and Poors is a private company.. and an arm of the Global Investment Organism whose clients are the banking and investment industries.. which have a specific agenda in limiting regulation and sovereign government control of its currency and credit. All of the executives of the ratings agencies come from, or expect to be hired into highly payed investment jobs once they do their bit at the ratings agencies (much like the government regulatory agencies).

S & P and the other ratings agencies were implicated as a primary cause of the housing and financial collapse of 2008 by rating the Collaterized Debt Obligations which were inundated with toxic sub prime mortgages as AAA, when in fact they were worthless. That was a deliberate and criminal fraud.

They have no credibility and this is a blatant attempt to dictate public policy in their own interests.

The truth is that government bonds, in a first world country, are in fact without risk as to the repayment of the face value in the currency of origin. That is because the bonds are minted of the same paper and plates as the currency is.. except bonds have interest attached to them. They can be cashed in at any time.. through open market mechanisms. There are risks, but those emanate from the exchange rates determined in an unregulated international currency casino.

The reason the U.S. government is relying on bonds rather than currency is the HUGE balance of trade deficit means you have American currency sloshing around countries like China which would cause hyperinflation if repatriated.. so the U.S. is forced to sop it up with their bonds. The American domestic industrial production can no longer absorb that amount of cash. This is pyramid scheme that will imminently collapse.

So this is a non event.. except that media is touting this as a real event.. and that the ratings agencies have the competency and integrity to provide an objective rating.. they DON'T.
 
petros
#105
China told US to smarten the hell up or face troubles.
 
Ocean Breeze
#106
Looks like more Wall Street shenanigans.

..could well be. Things are seldom as they either appear or told to us-the general public.

Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

China told US to smarten the hell up or face troubles.

wonder how the US will respond to this. After all it is beholding to China to such a financial degree that it has left itself totally vulnerable . The kind that cannot be resolved the usual 'american' way. Shoot themselves out of the problem .with their hyperactive WAR POLICY.

Must be harsh to realize that the US credit rating has been downgraded to AA. Entering new territory with implications that are cataclismic in some ways.

who would have thunk it??? Time to get the house in order big time.

Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Uncovering the scam and accepting it as reality might get you labelled as a conspiracy theory nutter.

ain't that the truth!!!.
 
petros
#107
If China stop shorting the RMB, then wages in China will shoot up and then they woulde be their own best customers. They'd be able to afford the crap we buy cheaply on their labour.

Sounds like "levelling" to me but that is okay. We've had our day and blew it.
 
Bar Sinister
#108
I continually see references to China in this discussion of the US debt and wonder how many posters have actually bothered to check the percentage of the US debt held by China. For those who have not here is a breakdown of the US debt as of January 2011. Below is an excerpt from a Wikipedia article dealing with the debt. You can read the full article here:
United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)

For those who do not trust Wikipedia here is a second link. US Debt - Definition of the US National Debt - How the US Debt Affects the US Economy (external - login to view)

Foreign ownership As of January 2011, foreigners owned $4.45 trillion of U.S. debt, or approximately 47% of the debt held by the public of $9.49 trillion and 32% of the total debt of $14.1 trillion. The largest holders were the central banks of China, Japan, the United Kingdom and Brazil. The share held by foreign governments has grown over time, rising from 25% of the public debt in 2007 and 13% in 1988.
As of May 2011 the largest single holder of U.S. government debt was China, with 26 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities. China's holdings of government debt, as a percentage of all foreign-held government debt, have decreased a bit over the last year, but are up significantly since 2000 (when China held just 6 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities).


As you can see when it comes to total debt China holds only 26% of foreign owned debt. Taking 32% a the number for total foreign debt holdings, that leaves China's total to be about 8% of the US total debt. It is very far from the earth-shattering amount talk show hosts like Jay Leno would have us believe. It is interesting to note that the second largest foreign holder after China is Japan with about 20% of the total and yet there are almost no references by anyone to this fact.


The debt crisis in the US is easily solvable, but as I have pointed out in numerous posts the US government has reached such a state of corrupt paralysis that is it unlikely anything will be done regardless of who is president or which party holds power in Congress.
 
petros
#109
Your math sucks.
 
Ocean Breeze
#110
The debt crisis in the US is easily solvable, but as I have pointed out in numerous posts the US government has reached such a state of corrupt paralysis that is it unlikely anything will be done regardless of who is president or which party holds power in Congress


that about sums it up.

Just so everyone is clear:



The Outstanding US Public Debt as of 06 Aug 2011 at 11:04:19 PM GMT is:
$ 1 4 , 5 7 3 , 0 5 1 , 8 5 1 , 5 9 5 . 3 0



Just over 14.5 Trillion Dollars



The estimated population of the United States is 311,072,294
so each citizen's share of this debt is $46,847.80.



How Much Is A trillion?



A million seconds is 12 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.
A trillion seconds is 31,688 years.



A million minutes ago was - 1 year, 329 days, 10 hours and 40 minutes ago.
A billion minutes ago was just after the time of Christ.



A million hours ago was in 1885.
A billion hours ago man had not yet walked on earth.



A million dollars ago was five (5) seconds ago at the U.S. Treasury.
A billion dollars ago was late yesterday afternoon at the U.S. Treasury.
[Note: this was pre-Obama]



One trillion seconds ago - 31,688 years - Neanderthals stalked the plains of Europe.



Million: 1,000,000
Billion: 1,000,000,000
Trillion: 1,000,000,000,000



And we the people of the USA, formerly the richest and most abundantly resourced continent on the face of this planet owe 14 of them to the private banking cartels.
From 'Sirk' on the Yahoo comments thread.



Mind boggling. When did reality and common sense leave the building??
=

and if anyone is wondering where a lot of the money goes:


Cost of War in Iraq & Afghanistan
Total Cost of Wars Since 2001
$1,229,447,424,988
http://www.costofwar.com/ (external - login to view)


.........aka KILLING PEOPLE in far off nations that posed no threat to the highly militarized US. ( and dissing off a lot of people to the point they are willing to die as a cause against the US...and its dastardly inhumane policies )
 
petros
#111
Total Cost of Wars Since 2001
$1,229,447,424,988

Iraqis get to pay for that out of their oil. Isn't it cool how things find a way to work themselves out?

 
Ocean Breeze
#112
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Total Cost of Wars Since 2001
$1,229,447,424,988

Iraqis get to pay for that out of their oil. Isn't it cool how things find a way to work themselves out?

that is more than a tad jaded. and NOT cool at all. They did not invite the war , no matter how many lies the USG tells. who will pay for the psychological torture that war causes? what about the loss of life, children, etc?? What will these children grow up to think about those "invaders" that killed their families , tortured and raped at will. While robbing the national treasure, moving into the palaces and basically act the fools they are.??

It is Iraqis oil. but the theives will spin it so that it is payment for "liberating " the Iraqis from their lives, limbs , homes, jobs and basic services...

It does not get more EVIL than that.
 
petros
#113
I never made the claim they are nice people.
 
JLM
#114
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

I never made the claim they are nice people.

The insurgents probably did as much damage or more than anyone!
 
petros
#115
That is highly doubtful. Insurgents don't have tomahawks.
 
Ocean Breeze
#116
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

The insurgents probably did as much damage or more than anyone!

interesting vernacular. The insurgents......aka fighters for Iraq (regardless of flavor) defenders of their own country , in whatever way they could...... were doing what any population would do if invaded the way Iraq was. The only ones that believed the lies from the USG about why the US invaded Iraq are the Americans.....who are easily duped by their lying leaders.

.......in some ways......the financial collapse we are seeing now..........is a form of poetic justice for all the nasty business (war) that the US has created in the ME on the grounds of their basic GREED. (and being so blinded by power and lust for more......that they have been living in an alternate universe created by themselves.

Many of us predicted that the US would implode due to its own arrogance , extravagance, easy spending and LOVE OF WAR and aggression.

Payback comes in many forms...........

Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

That is highly doubtful. Insurgents don't have tomahawks.

Of course it is doubtful. But some will blame them just the same...... as if defending their country against the aggressor was somehow wrong.

Wonder if the US population would just sit back and let someone invade them (MILITARILY ......so don't even bother to mention the over used, and abused terror excuse) ) without fighting back in whatever way they could.

The one sided view of some is appalling.
 
Bar Sinister
+1
#117
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Your math sucks.

Show me where I am wrong then. But I make 26% of 32% to be about 8%. Of course, it could be that you know some other form of mathematics in which one-quarter of 32 is not 8.

Just to further back up my original post here are the figures for the main US debtor nations as of May 2011. China as you see is owed $1159.8 billion, which as a percentage of the total debt of about 14,000 billion works out to... let me see... Oh yes, about 8%.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...uments/mfh.txt
 
Omicron
+1
#118
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

ATTENTION AMERICANS!!!

First make sure you are cleared with these people: WHTI | Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative | USA

Then fill out one of these: www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/guides/5487E.PDF (external - login to view)

And start looking here: SaskJobs.ca - Real Careers. Real Life. (external - login to view)

8380 jobs posted in Saskatchewan today says the website.

Crisis what crisis? A labour crisis. If you need work and have skills here is work..

Hello, Howdy, Buenos Dias, Aloha, Ni Hao, Bonjour, Velkommen...

Bring fresh fruit!!!


Hello, Howdy, Buenos Dias, Aloha, Ni Hao, Bonjour, Velkommen...

I almost forgot the east coasters...Hey Buddy!!!

Hmm... just out of curiosity Petros...

Suppose the US were to do to itself what Argentina did to itself in the early part of the 20th Century?

Late 1800's early 1900's Argentina was the most progressively advanced nation in the New World.

Then at some point in the earlier half of the 20th Century, something happened. A few rich people got it into their nut to become richer.

When people already rich do that it tends to not be because they want to be rich - for they already are - rather because they want power, and not just any power. They want the kind of power that makes others hurt. (Total classic textbook mental takeover by Lucifer).

It was tragic to Argentinians, driving it down from a first-world nation into one that is to this day struggling to tread water above 2nd-world status, with the same few super-rich among them defending their 21st Century status quo.

America just did it on the 2nd August 2011. Most don't know it yet, but the Senator Republics used a legal trick to make it so the US has no option other than to go down Argentina's path. If you're from Central/South America you'll have seen it, but Americans have been living in such idealistic conditions for so long they will have not.

It means so many things on so many levels I don't where to begin, but I'll tell you what I know.

Germany is freaking out. They're the core of keeping the EU afloat and they're having enough trouble as it is telling Greeks that as members of the EU they are expected to pay their taxes. That being said if Greece et al can get something knocked out of their head as lazy Mediterraneans and start actually doing their part, then Europe with it's more efficient way of doing things still has the option of being the economy to save Africa.

China is disturbed, but not freaked out. They operate according to the principal that there are two kinds of people: Chinese and everyone else, none of others-whom matter, such that defaulting on a loan boosts the power of the central authority. You're going to say something like how-can-that-be, but keep in mind that China is mostly a cash-based economy, such that they do in fact have issues with taxation in order to keep then nation running, yet they still somehow manage to gather enough to keep things going. How many trillion times did it have to be said to literate folk that communism in the hands of Russians would not be the same as in the hands of Chinese? It's an economic system of ownership, not a political system of governance.

Russia is laughing. They are self-contained in resources and can go it alone like they had to under Soviet administration if need be. Like the way American gangsters disdained the folly of Europe before the second world war, so also is it happening that way there.

In the mean time we have Canada.

On so many levels it's still possible for it to be a good place to live and give kids a future and grand-kids some ground, and on so many levels does it have itself suckered by the briefcase carrying MBAs who should have been better trained to carry a lunch-bucket in order to have some real value to the economy, but it's not over yet, however it's going to require some cooperation and education and good will and for members to stop hating each other the way Satan wants people to in order for him to get more souls than the other side...

Pretend the Harper government is real and is not a Toronto-establishment blue-chip toady of New York. If it is then I can state facts contrary to the brain-washing eastern establishment oligarchy.

What's going to happen is this:

The US just tanked it's economy down to second-world status, joining Argentina what with the Republicans stopping taxation of those able to pay on the 2nd of August 2011. Normally if a nation does that it's boo-hoo, but in this case it's the US, meaning it's going to affect everyone.

In the mean time the climate is changing, such that Fort Smith is going to become one of the better places to live, such that if one has long term vision they will buy property up there for their grandchildren.

In fact the climate change charts show that 70 million people are going to be living in Canada by the time the chaos of weird weather settles down after the climate finishes changing to its new level, so... what kind of people does Canada want living here?

Obviously there's going to be a whole bunch of Americans running up here... some to escape the climate they destroyed, and others to escape the economy they destroyed.

How about if we make it so the super-rich running away from the damage they did have to settle in Labrador, in order to have some social respect for the damage they did to the global economy? I'm sure they'd do well. Under a new climate and with all their money they'd find a way to make an already incredible coastline the desire of others. I had a nightmare where the insanely rich discovered my secret place in the mountain wilderness and carved out the insides of the mountains to make the insides like hotels with them having glass windows looking out over the beautiful secret natural valley. How about if we get them to do that to some coastlines having weather where it makes sense to have a glass-shielded view to watch the weather through?

In the mean time there's the issue of the majority of non-super rich Americans with real north American talent, possibly snookered by the super-rich fiasco, needing a place to move to to live and work, and I want it to see it that they get first dibs, in spite of the prejudice which some might hold against them for being from the nation to collapse the global economy, not to mention how it's going to be one f-ck of a lot easier getting along with them moving in than a buck-tooth boatload of south-Asians... and I'm not even prejudiced.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I think all the hysteria we've heard in the past few days will blow over be it a week a month or a year. Actually it's probably a blessing in disguise, as it gives the rich people and capitalists a chance to feel what it's like to be poor. For those that are smart it's a great opportunity to prosper, there's a lot of stuff at "bargain basement" prices which can be regarded the same way you regard your Safeway flyer. Just part of cycle that happens every few years & just as predictable as July follows January.

They were supposed to use the extra money to spend on starting up new industries to create new jobs, which they did not do.

They used the money to buy up stuff already running. Then they shut everything down so there was no competition. Then they invested start-up in cheep third-world nations in order to get even bigger numbers in the guild's books.

This was all described as a likelihood by many economists back in '82 which, evidently, none of you were old enough to read. If you were old enough to read those forecasts, then you were either too stupid or too evil to care.

Ever notice how in terms of results, it's very difficult to tell the difference between the actions of stupid versus evil?

It's probably why evil always looks for stupids to be it's followers.
Last edited by Omicron; Aug 7th, 2011 at 03:10 AM..
 
ironsides
#119
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

The debt crisis in the US is easily solvable, but as I have pointed out in numerous posts the US government has reached such a state of corrupt paralysis that is it unlikely anything will be done regardless of who is president or which party holds power in Congress


that about sums it up.

Just so everyone is clear:


Naming the reason in your eyes was easy, saying it "is easily solvable" is a easy answer. More importantly just how does one go about this easy answer to fix the economy? Solve it and the world would be yours.
 
JLM
#120
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

Naming the reason in your eyes was easy, saying it "is easily solvable" is a easy answer. More importantly just how does one go about this easy answer to fix the economy? Solve it and the world would be yours.

In one sense it's easily solvable and in another sense it's not. To solve it every person of average means would merely have to go on a five year belt tightening program, basically just purchasing essentials and putting the rest of their income toward the debt- that's the easy part, the hard part is getting them to do it! But if they don't, their kids and grandkids are going to have even more of an up hill battle!
 

Similar Threads

0
The financial follies
by Tyr | Mar 6th, 2009
10
Financial Collapse, Systemic Crisis?
by darkbeaver | Nov 24th, 2008
1
The Financial Tsunami
by darkbeaver | Jul 16th, 2008
no new posts