Senate Member
Posts: 6,131 
November 15th, 2007, 12:04 PM
Shifting sands reveal World War Two fighter plane lost for 65 years
15th November 2007
Daily Mail
For 65 years, this Second World War fighter had lain hidden under the surface of a UK beach where it crash-landed.
Just a short distance above it, holidaying families have built sandcastles, strolled and swum, all unaware of its existence.
But now the P-38 Lightning has re-emerged after freak weather conditions caused the sands to shift and expose its rusting frame.
Shifting sands: The fighter was exposed during unusual coastal conditions
The U.S. aircraft - with its distinctive "twinboom" design - was discovered on the North Wales coast, but the location is being kept secret in case it is targeted by looters.
Its remains were spotted by a family in July, but it was thought to be an unmanned drone used for aerial target practice from the 1950s.
However, a local aviation enthusiast recognised it from a newspaper photo and contacted a group of U.S. aircraft historians.
The Lightning has been identified using its serial number and other records. It was built in 1941 and reached Britain in 1942 before flying combat missions along the Dutch-Belgian coast.
It was flown by Second Lieutenant Robert F. "Fred" Elliott, 24, from North Carolina.
The P-38 fighter plane: One was lost off the Welsh coast
During a gunnery practice mission on September 27, 1942, a fuel supply problem forced him to make an emergency landing on the nearest suitable place - the Welsh beach.
His belly landing in shallow water sheared off a wingtip, but he escaped unhurt.
Unfortunately, less than three months later, the veteran of more than ten combat missions was shot down over Tunisia. His plane and body were never found.
His nephew, Robert Elliott, 64, of Blountville, Tennessee, has spent nearly 30 years trying to learn more about his uncle's career.
"This is just a monumental discovery and a very emotional thing," said Mr Elliott, who hopes to be present for the recovery. Ric Gillespie, who heads the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, is leading the mission to recover the P-38.
"American officers had the guns removed, and the records say the aircraft was salvaged, but it wasn't," he said.
"It was gradually covered with sand, and there it sat for 65 years. With censorship in force and British beaches closed to the public during the war, nobody knew it was there.
"It's sort of like Brigadoon, the mythical Scottish village that appears and disappears. The fighter is arguably the oldest P-38 in existence. In that respect it's a major find."
The twin-engine P-38 was conceived by Lockheed design genius Clarence "Kelly" Johnson in the late 1930s. Some 10,000 were built, and about 32 complete or partial airframes are believed to still exist.
The recovery group plans to collaborate with British museum experts in recovering the nearly intact but fragile aircraft next spring.
The Imperial War Museum Duxford and the Royal Air Force Museum are among the institutions expressing interest in it.
dailymail.co.uk
Shifting sands reveal World War Two fighter plane lost for 65 years
15th November 2007
Daily Mail
For 65 years, this Second World War fighter had lain hidden under the surface of a UK beach where it crash-landed.
Just a short distance above it, holidaying families have built sandcastles, strolled and swum, all unaware of its existence.
But now the P-38 Lightning has re-emerged after freak weather conditions caused the sands to shift and expose its rusting frame.
Shifting sands: The fighter was exposed during unusual coastal conditions
The U.S. aircraft - with its distinctive "twinboom" design - was discovered on the North Wales coast, but the location is being kept secret in case it is targeted by looters.
Its remains were spotted by a family in July, but it was thought to be an unmanned drone used for aerial target practice from the 1950s.
However, a local aviation enthusiast recognised it from a newspaper photo and contacted a group of U.S. aircraft historians.
The Lightning has been identified using its serial number and other records. It was built in 1941 and reached Britain in 1942 before flying combat missions along the Dutch-Belgian coast.
It was flown by Second Lieutenant Robert F. "Fred" Elliott, 24, from North Carolina.
The P-38 fighter plane: One was lost off the Welsh coast
During a gunnery practice mission on September 27, 1942, a fuel supply problem forced him to make an emergency landing on the nearest suitable place - the Welsh beach.
His belly landing in shallow water sheared off a wingtip, but he escaped unhurt.
Unfortunately, less than three months later, the veteran of more than ten combat missions was shot down over Tunisia. His plane and body were never found.
His nephew, Robert Elliott, 64, of Blountville, Tennessee, has spent nearly 30 years trying to learn more about his uncle's career.
"This is just a monumental discovery and a very emotional thing," said Mr Elliott, who hopes to be present for the recovery. Ric Gillespie, who heads the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, is leading the mission to recover the P-38.
"American officers had the guns removed, and the records say the aircraft was salvaged, but it wasn't," he said.
"It was gradually covered with sand, and there it sat for 65 years. With censorship in force and British beaches closed to the public during the war, nobody knew it was there.
"It's sort of like Brigadoon, the mythical Scottish village that appears and disappears. The fighter is arguably the oldest P-38 in existence. In that respect it's a major find."
The twin-engine P-38 was conceived by Lockheed design genius Clarence "Kelly" Johnson in the late 1930s. Some 10,000 were built, and about 32 complete or partial airframes are believed to still exist.
The recovery group plans to collaborate with British museum experts in recovering the nearly intact but fragile aircraft next spring.
The Imperial War Museum Duxford and the Royal Air Force Museum are among the institutions expressing interest in it.
dailymail.co.uk
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534
November 15th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Sad end for one of the best designs of arguably the best aircraft designer the world has known. The Lockheed P-38 was a step ahead of it's time. All it's guns could be mounted in the big, roomy, nose, rather than being spread out along the wings. It could also carry over 3,000 pounds of bombs or other ordinance under the wings. The Japanese in the Pacific had nothing to match it. Kelly Johnson's genius can be found in a lot of other aircraft: The F-80, the F-104, the Sr-71, the C-130 Hercules to name a few.
Sad end for one of the best designs of arguably the best aircraft designer the world has known. The Lockheed P-38 was a step ahead of it's time. All it's guns could be mounted in the big, roomy, nose, rather than being spread out along the wings. It could also carry over 3,000 pounds of bombs or other ordinance under the wings. The Japanese in the Pacific had nothing to match it. Kelly Johnson's genius can be found in a lot of other aircraft: The F-80, the F-104, the Sr-71, the C-130 Hercules to name a few.
Council Member
Posts: 1,706
Location: Alberta, Canada
Location: Alberta, Canada
November 15th, 2007, 11:24 PM
http://www.mossie.org/Mosquito_var.htm
The P38 used various Allison V-1710 engines
http://www.p-38online.com/
Quoting lone wolf
The mosquito used Merlins......except, it appears, the Canadian built variant which used Packards.
No - Mosquito. Merlins vs Allisons (Cadillacs, really ... or were they Packards?)
http://www.mossie.org/Mosquito_var.htm
The P38 used various Allison V-1710 engines
http://www.p-38online.com/
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534
November 15th, 2007, 11:26 PM
Well the Dehaviland Mosquito had Rolls Royce Merlins and the Lockheed P-38 had Allisons....built by half a dozen different companies. The Merlins were more reliable. The Mosquito had four twenty mm cannons and four machine guns so it was more heavily armed than the P-38. Performance and range of the two aircraft was very close. I would probably have picked the Mosquito.
Well the Dehaviland Mosquito had Rolls Royce Merlins and the Lockheed P-38 had Allisons....built by half a dozen different companies. The Merlins were more reliable. The Mosquito had four twenty mm cannons and four machine guns so it was more heavily armed than the P-38. Performance and range of the two aircraft was very close. I would probably have picked the Mosquito.
Executive Member
Posts: 9,534
November 16th, 2007, 12:28 AM
Quote:
Both the Germans and the Allies use API (Armour Piercing Incendary) machine gun ammo. The cannons were 20 to 40 mm. At least ninety percent of the API machine gun hits would go clear through most aircraft. I once saw a 50 caliber round go right through a five inch diameter steel balance weight on a towed target. The worst place to get hit was the engine. You could take thirty or forty bullets through both wings with little consequence, You couldn't take a lot of hits on the engines and expect to fly home. The Mosquito and the Lightning unfortunately, both had twice as many engines as most fighters to take hits on. The main strengths of both these aircraft was their speed and heavy armament.
P38's doubleing their weight with German lead and still coming home
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,278
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 16th, 2007, 10:13 AM
Mossie was unique in being constructed of plywood. I've read that Mosquito outperformed Lightning - and I've heard the opposite too. A live fly-off would be so cool!
With Hurry and Spit, Mustang and Warhawk there was one certainty. When the prop came to a shuddering halt out over the English Channel, you're going to get wet. You could make it home on one engine....
Woof!
Quoting #juan
There are a couple of sites where comparisons are made. They're forum format though, so they tend to draw braggarts whose stats are doubtful at best. Gun arrangement varied with marque and mission in both types. Being nose-mounted, they were much easier to train.
Both the Germans and the Allies use API (Armour Piercing Incendary) machine gun ammo. The cannons were 20 to 40 mm. At least ninety percent of the API machine gun hits would go clear through most aircraft. I once saw a 50 caliber round go right through a five inch diameter steel balance weight on a towed target. The worst place to get hit was the engine. You could take thirty or forty bullets through both wings with little consequence, You couldn't take a lot of hits on the engines and expect to fly home. The Mosquito and the Lightning unfortunately, both had twice as many engines as most fighters to take hits on. The main strengths of both these aircraft was their speed and heavy armament.
Mossie was unique in being constructed of plywood. I've read that Mosquito outperformed Lightning - and I've heard the opposite too. A live fly-off would be so cool!
With Hurry and Spit, Mustang and Warhawk there was one certainty. When the prop came to a shuddering halt out over the English Channel, you're going to get wet. You could make it home on one engine....
Woof!
