Newbie
Posts: 9 
March 26th, 2007, 02:02 AM
How we/I would like to believe we'll be united once again with loved ones, human, canine, or otherwise, is beyond measure. Do I count on it? Certainly not. Wow, this is a mindfull Dex. As far as the born again thing goes, born again, shmorn again. And, did you say brainwashing? Bingo.
How we/I would like to believe we'll be united once again with loved ones, human, canine, or otherwise, is beyond measure. Do I count on it? Certainly not. Wow, this is a mindfull Dex. As far as the born again thing goes, born again, shmorn again. And, did you say brainwashing? Bingo.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558 
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
March 26th, 2007, 07:50 AM
I have, as you noted, avoided this thread for these very reasons. Namely, the fact that the theology of our friend AJ is so off-base from what is truly the Christian faith it is, frankly, pointless to debate him on this issue. In honesty, I don't usually concern myself with what is, in truth, a small fringe group of people who assume they are Christians because they've learned to worship the Bible rather than God. The fact is, the majority of Christians subscribe to what you define as the mainstream. that these "born-again" types seem to be so prominent is not due to their actual numbers, but more to their ability to monopolize the media to their belief systems.
With over a billion Roman Catholics, approx 500 million Orthodox and 30 million traditional Anglicans in the world, I am confidant that the majority position of the faith is the more accurate to define.
It is interesting to also note that the "born-again" fringe group is mostly found in the USA. Yet even in that country, their actual numbers are far lower than the mainline Catholic "type" believers.
Quoting Dexter Sinister
"Born-again", in fundamentalist terms is a rather new concept developed by Pentecostal people around the turn of the last century. It is, as they describe the concept, foreign to Christian theology. In real Christian theology, it is a term that refers to the conversion experience one undergoes to become a member of the Church, or of the Body of Christ if you prefer. It indicates a change of heart, or living; of throwing off the mindset of the "old" man and adopting the mindset of Christ. It is, in essence, a life-long experience and not typically something done in an instant. I am deeply suspicious of people who have a "conversion" experience that equates to a quick prayer and "presto", they are "saved". This, in the entire 2,000 year history of the faith, is utterly foreign to Christian doctrines. Writing this is not to forget the famous conversion experienced by St. Paul on the road to Damascus, That rather dramatic experience aside, the majority of people are, basically, on a journey of faith and discovery. We are on the way, hopefully on the right road and hopefully staying on that road. Most of us fall off to the wayside from time to time, but the real struggle of conversion is a lifelong process. No instant, magic fix for us!
Yes, it's really me this time... 
I've been thinking about this for about 24 hours. I really have no clear idea what 'born again' means in the Christian context, and as far as I know it has no meaning in any other context. It seems to be an idea unique to certain rather literalist and fundamentalist Christian groups and doesn't appear to have any meaning in what we generally call 'mainstream' Christianity. Whatever that means... I don't recall ever hearing a Catholic or Anglican (Episcopalian for you Americans and Scots) or Lutheran or Baptist or etc. talk about being born again. I note that our resident priest, sanctus, has posted only once in this thread, and that was to address a very specific and rather peripheral point made by WMG that he felt was incorrect (and I agree with him), not to comment on the nature of being born again. .
I've been thinking about this for about 24 hours. I really have no clear idea what 'born again' means in the Christian context, and as far as I know it has no meaning in any other context. It seems to be an idea unique to certain rather literalist and fundamentalist Christian groups and doesn't appear to have any meaning in what we generally call 'mainstream' Christianity. Whatever that means... I don't recall ever hearing a Catholic or Anglican (Episcopalian for you Americans and Scots) or Lutheran or Baptist or etc. talk about being born again. I note that our resident priest, sanctus, has posted only once in this thread, and that was to address a very specific and rather peripheral point made by WMG that he felt was incorrect (and I agree with him), not to comment on the nature of being born again. .
I have, as you noted, avoided this thread for these very reasons. Namely, the fact that the theology of our friend AJ is so off-base from what is truly the Christian faith it is, frankly, pointless to debate him on this issue. In honesty, I don't usually concern myself with what is, in truth, a small fringe group of people who assume they are Christians because they've learned to worship the Bible rather than God. The fact is, the majority of Christians subscribe to what you define as the mainstream. that these "born-again" types seem to be so prominent is not due to their actual numbers, but more to their ability to monopolize the media to their belief systems.
With over a billion Roman Catholics, approx 500 million Orthodox and 30 million traditional Anglicans in the world, I am confidant that the majority position of the faith is the more accurate to define.
It is interesting to also note that the "born-again" fringe group is mostly found in the USA. Yet even in that country, their actual numbers are far lower than the mainline Catholic "type" believers.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
March 26th, 2007, 10:16 AM
I can see why and how the responses are what they are. There is within all of us a sense of the spiritual. Defining that spiritual is where the problem really exists.
Who has the right to define the true spiritual side of God? But God Himself!
Look, if we could erase everything we ever learned about religion, start fresh as a young Childs mind, clear of all religious clutter, we would see God Himself describing to us who He really is.
What hinders us from experiencing the true mind of God is our own minds. We want an explanation that we could agree with so as to maybe, just maybe, we might just allow God to touch our hearts and change our lives.
True what Sanctus has said about this concept of “Born again” being accepted by Christians for a short time. But to deny it’s reality after the words of Christ, is to deny what Christ said.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Where these words just spoken for no meaning at all? Or do they represent a re-birth of a new creation? Surely, He stated that in order to see the kingdom of God, one must be born again.
You suppose, He knew what He was talking about as in actually experiencing it Himself to know? Obviously, Yes.
But in order as to not confuse us with something that is very deep, He said the following: Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
You see, the nation of Israel had a structured belief system given to them by God in Moses which is representative by the law as given by Moses.
This law which exposes sin in mankind also condemns mankind to eternal separation, or as I’ve have equated it with spiritual death.
So, Jesus understanding all that, had the monumental task of reversing all that was of “old” thought to that of His new Message.
He was saying in fact as written, “You must be born again” if you want to see God. No if’s and but’s.
He then goes on to explain the process by giving the example by understandable earthly things, such as a seed.
The seed of First Adam was corruptible! Meaning that the flesh became corruptible and in need of becoming some other than corruptible.
But once in the flesh (Corruptible) it would necessitate a re-birth, to an incorruptible seed, which is, the spirit of God.
And as you can see on the next verse explaining the process of how we become incorruptible by “the word” of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
“The word of God” is Jesus. He is the incorruptible seed second Adam of re-birth.
Second Adam: because it is a new creation. The “Old” has being done away with, (As far as separation [death] from God is concerned, spiritually speaking) and a new creation instituted. Again: spiritually speaking.
We all die in the flesh, regardless of who or what we are, there is no difference to death of the flesh. All must die!
But concerning the spiritual, we no longer die because of the new creation process. There is no more any longer death to our souls.
All that is left for us to do is believe it!
I prefer to believe it now, and have the heavens for my comfort zone in times of trials and tribulations here on earth.
For He has promised: “I will never leave you or forsake you”. Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
What God hath promised, no man can change it. One can bank on it!
I’m making it real simple folks, because God is not complicated at all! We have made God complicated by our own thinking. Our own minds blind us from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Your choice.
Won’t you let God into your heart and let Him show you what He really is like, and quit beating around the bush on man’s theologies?
Very easy: Just ask Him to come and abide in your heart! What’s so difficult about that?
Meditate on that for awhile!
Peace>>>AJ
P.S. The breaking heart is not a symbol of mine, but that of Christ, because He has so much love for us, that we can not see it for our own stubbornness and lack of trust in Him.
Yet, He waits!
I love that Jesus!!
I can see why and how the responses are what they are. There is within all of us a sense of the spiritual. Defining that spiritual is where the problem really exists.
Who has the right to define the true spiritual side of God? But God Himself!
Look, if we could erase everything we ever learned about religion, start fresh as a young Childs mind, clear of all religious clutter, we would see God Himself describing to us who He really is.
What hinders us from experiencing the true mind of God is our own minds. We want an explanation that we could agree with so as to maybe, just maybe, we might just allow God to touch our hearts and change our lives.
True what Sanctus has said about this concept of “Born again” being accepted by Christians for a short time. But to deny it’s reality after the words of Christ, is to deny what Christ said.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Where these words just spoken for no meaning at all? Or do they represent a re-birth of a new creation? Surely, He stated that in order to see the kingdom of God, one must be born again.
You suppose, He knew what He was talking about as in actually experiencing it Himself to know? Obviously, Yes.
But in order as to not confuse us with something that is very deep, He said the following: Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
You see, the nation of Israel had a structured belief system given to them by God in Moses which is representative by the law as given by Moses.
This law which exposes sin in mankind also condemns mankind to eternal separation, or as I’ve have equated it with spiritual death.
So, Jesus understanding all that, had the monumental task of reversing all that was of “old” thought to that of His new Message.
He was saying in fact as written, “You must be born again” if you want to see God. No if’s and but’s.
He then goes on to explain the process by giving the example by understandable earthly things, such as a seed.
The seed of First Adam was corruptible! Meaning that the flesh became corruptible and in need of becoming some other than corruptible.
But once in the flesh (Corruptible) it would necessitate a re-birth, to an incorruptible seed, which is, the spirit of God.
And as you can see on the next verse explaining the process of how we become incorruptible by “the word” of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
“The word of God” is Jesus. He is the incorruptible seed second Adam of re-birth.
Second Adam: because it is a new creation. The “Old” has being done away with, (As far as separation [death] from God is concerned, spiritually speaking) and a new creation instituted. Again: spiritually speaking.
We all die in the flesh, regardless of who or what we are, there is no difference to death of the flesh. All must die!
But concerning the spiritual, we no longer die because of the new creation process. There is no more any longer death to our souls.
All that is left for us to do is believe it!
I prefer to believe it now, and have the heavens for my comfort zone in times of trials and tribulations here on earth.
For He has promised: “I will never leave you or forsake you”. Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
What God hath promised, no man can change it. One can bank on it!
I’m making it real simple folks, because God is not complicated at all! We have made God complicated by our own thinking. Our own minds blind us from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Your choice.
Won’t you let God into your heart and let Him show you what He really is like, and quit beating around the bush on man’s theologies?
Very easy: Just ask Him to come and abide in your heart! What’s so difficult about that?
Meditate on that for awhile!
Peace>>>AJ
P.S. The breaking heart is not a symbol of mine, but that of Christ, because He has so much love for us, that we can not see it for our own stubbornness and lack of trust in Him.
Yet, He waits!
I love that Jesus!!
