Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 10,505 
Location: The Evil Empire
Location: The Evil Empire
June 19th, 2006, 03:43 PM
Finder
I don't need a history lesson. Europe has had a history of turning away from it's own problems throughout the 20th century. And we certainly will not do it any justice in one paragraph as you attempted to do. However, these facts are not in dispute.
Armenian genocide is a kicker, but for Europeans, it was over there.
Hitler was an evident threat and started rounding up the Jews well before WWII broke.
The Christians were slaughtering Muslims left and right and still Europe pretended nothing was going on, all they could do is offer, what else, chit chat to warring factions. In other words they did nothing.
History is repeating itself. The Europeans with their multiculturalism are in effect seggregating Mulsims all over Europe, never to be true Europeans. It's happening in Scandinavia, Spain, Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, you name a country and it's happening.
You were saying?
Finder
I don't need a history lesson. Europe has had a history of turning away from it's own problems throughout the 20th century. And we certainly will not do it any justice in one paragraph as you attempted to do. However, these facts are not in dispute.
Armenian genocide is a kicker, but for Europeans, it was over there.
Hitler was an evident threat and started rounding up the Jews well before WWII broke.
The Christians were slaughtering Muslims left and right and still Europe pretended nothing was going on, all they could do is offer, what else, chit chat to warring factions. In other words they did nothing.
History is repeating itself. The Europeans with their multiculturalism are in effect seggregating Mulsims all over Europe, never to be true Europeans. It's happening in Scandinavia, Spain, Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, you name a country and it's happening.
You were saying?
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
June 19th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Never said the policies of France and so on were multicultist. However what you are saying is completed mixed up and perhaps blurred by what these counties are saying rather then the act of what they are doing..
As you can see Segregation and multicultualism are two very different things.
Is France multi-cultual, even though It has laws of banning religous items in school and so on. Yes because it generally bans Christian Islamic and so on the same way. Though many people believe this is aimed at the Islamic community but in practice and law is aimmed at all religions. Is France extremely multiculal, no, they are not on the fringe, like lets say Canada which tends to go too far with multicultualism and weakens our seculer nation with it.
Is France Segregating the Islamic community... Unless you are a communist or left of the main stream socialist party of France, I guess you might be able to say this. Economically the Islamic community tends to live in the lower class nabourhoods, yes. However unless you are going to push France from a Welfare-state/democratic socialist state with capitalist tendacies to that of a communist state I don't think you can change this.
ITN, perhaps you're just not being clear enough to me on what you think the full solution to this problem is. So far from what you are saying it is easy for us to fill in the blanks with either extremist fascist policy of anti multicultialism or that of communism and that of a classless society where you could surmise if you are a marxist may fix the problem completely because all culturers would be on equal footing.
Never said the policies of France and so on were multicultist. However what you are saying is completed mixed up and perhaps blurred by what these counties are saying rather then the act of what they are doing..
Quote:
Source: http://www.answers.com/multiculturalism&r=67
multiculturalism or cultural pluralism, a term describing the coexistence of many cultures in a locality, without any one culture dominating the region. By making the broadest range of human differences acceptable to the largest number of people, multiculturalism seeks to overcome racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination.
Quote:
Source: http://www.answers.com/segregation&r=67
seg·re·ga·tion (sĕg'rĭ-gā'shən) pronunciation
n.
1. The act or process of segregating or the condition of being segregated.
2. The policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups, as in schools, housing, and public or commercial facilities, especially as a form of discrimination.
3. Genetics. The separation of paired alleles or homologous chromosomes, especially during meiosis, so that the members of each pair appear in different gametes.
n.
1. The act or process of segregating or the condition of being segregated.
2. The policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups, as in schools, housing, and public or commercial facilities, especially as a form of discrimination.
3. Genetics. The separation of paired alleles or homologous chromosomes, especially during meiosis, so that the members of each pair appear in different gametes.
As you can see Segregation and multicultualism are two very different things.
Is France multi-cultual, even though It has laws of banning religous items in school and so on. Yes because it generally bans Christian Islamic and so on the same way. Though many people believe this is aimed at the Islamic community but in practice and law is aimmed at all religions. Is France extremely multiculal, no, they are not on the fringe, like lets say Canada which tends to go too far with multicultualism and weakens our seculer nation with it.
Is France Segregating the Islamic community... Unless you are a communist or left of the main stream socialist party of France, I guess you might be able to say this. Economically the Islamic community tends to live in the lower class nabourhoods, yes. However unless you are going to push France from a Welfare-state/democratic socialist state with capitalist tendacies to that of a communist state I don't think you can change this.
ITN, perhaps you're just not being clear enough to me on what you think the full solution to this problem is. So far from what you are saying it is easy for us to fill in the blanks with either extremist fascist policy of anti multicultialism or that of communism and that of a classless society where you could surmise if you are a marxist may fix the problem completely because all culturers would be on equal footing.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,838
Location: Independent Palestine
Location: Independent Palestine
June 19th, 2006, 06:51 PM
Quoting
Please study history as well, WW1 was a left over of 19th century imperialism, of alliances and military policy and the economic drive to war. History is written by the victors and yes people placed the thumb on Germany as being the cause of WW1 but it is not that simple. WW2 is compligated by the facts of the countunation of WW1 events, such as the treaty of Versailles, failed communist revultion in germany, failed democracy in germany largely by the German Social Democrats in ability to bring in the right wing parties which were causing problems because of the economic problems of Versailles. As well as the defeated extreme left with the communists inability to help the social democrats and by in large actually helped the right wing gain power by not allying itself with the social democrats. With economic, land, revolution, political instability and to make things worse a war which devasted the land and everything else, caused WW2. Early policies towards Germany after WW1 would have helped the Democratic government out instead of making matters worse for that government. The Allies lost the peace for WW2, for WW1 pretty much there was not one nation you couldn;t blame at least a little. As for Serbia..... I don't know what you are talking about, I'm not sure what could have been done differently as it was an internal breakup and political changes in every Yugoslavian republic which brought about the civil war and to which you had ethnic populace spread out over different republics.
Our current situation with Islamic extremism is hard to compair with any past conflics.
Agreed.
Quoting
*blinks* but what are you saying to to follow the Nazi like vision on immigration and other cultures. Quoting
Turning a blind eye to threats in their own backyard. WWI? WWII? Serbia? Now Mulsim fundamentalism.
Repeating what history? I would think going all right-wing psycho on a minority was right-wing fascist garbage.
Please study history as well, WW1 was a left over of 19th century imperialism, of alliances and military policy and the economic drive to war. History is written by the victors and yes people placed the thumb on Germany as being the cause of WW1 but it is not that simple. WW2 is compligated by the facts of the countunation of WW1 events, such as the treaty of Versailles, failed communist revultion in germany, failed democracy in germany largely by the German Social Democrats in ability to bring in the right wing parties which were causing problems because of the economic problems of Versailles. As well as the defeated extreme left with the communists inability to help the social democrats and by in large actually helped the right wing gain power by not allying itself with the social democrats. With economic, land, revolution, political instability and to make things worse a war which devasted the land and everything else, caused WW2. Early policies towards Germany after WW1 would have helped the Democratic government out instead of making matters worse for that government. The Allies lost the peace for WW2, for WW1 pretty much there was not one nation you couldn;t blame at least a little. As for Serbia..... I don't know what you are talking about, I'm not sure what could have been done differently as it was an internal breakup and political changes in every Yugoslavian republic which brought about the civil war and to which you had ethnic populace spread out over different republics.
Our current situation with Islamic extremism is hard to compair with any past conflics.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,838
Location: Independent Palestine
Location: Independent Palestine
June 19th, 2006, 06:53 PM
Now if you are talking about the NAZI threat in WWII the only way you would defeat them was through violent non-democratic means in the 1920s that no one wanted to do.
Quoting
Like Finder says, WWI had to do with Military alliances that got them all into war. WWII came from the defeat of the first one and other reasons.
You like playing word games Jersay? If you don't know who the threats were then I don't see any point in continuing.
Now if you are talking about the NAZI threat in WWII the only way you would defeat them was through violent non-democratic means in the 1920s that no one wanted to do.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,838
Location: Independent Palestine
Location: Independent Palestine
June 19th, 2006, 06:53 PM
Your not answering.
Quoting
Keep on posting. When Jersay feels he's losing an argument, he makes a completley ridiculous statement, just to piss off the other debator.
But you're probably right. No sense continuing........with him.
Your point is a very good one ITN. I believe the threat, especially in WW2 was recognized by all those who wanted to see, but no action was taken.
Wild statement. Quoting
ITN:
You like playing word games Jersay? If you don't know who the threats were then I don't see any point in continuing.
Keep on posting. When Jersay feels he's losing an argument, he makes a completley ridiculous statement, just to piss off the other debator.
But you're probably right. No sense continuing........with him.
Your point is a very good one ITN. I believe the threat, especially in WW2 was recognized by all those who wanted to see, but no action was taken.
Your not answering.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
June 19th, 2006, 07:21 PM
Jersay, to be fare to ITN, he is thinking generally only of the 1930's when it comes to ww2. So yes during the 1930's the only way to prevent Hitler and Germany from doing what it did was for direct action. What I was talking about is what caused Hitler and the general german reactions which takes place as early as ww1 but largely during the 1920's. If things were changed in the 1920's I highly doubt we would have had to worry about Hitler. Of course the right wing and even the extreme left wing tend to over look the fact that it was 1920 policies which crushed germany economically which lead to the crisis in in the 1930's in which by that time the right wing becomes right and direct action was the only real solution in which many nations were extremely hesitant to take, yet in the 20's extremely liberal on economic crushing policies towards germany.
So ITN is right and wrong. But compairing ww2 and ww1 to the current events is somewhat.... hard to do at best. Perhaps how we treat Iraq after defeating them in war is the best situation. Do we keep them down like we did Germany after ww2, occupying parts of it which the people will tend to remember. Hurt them economically, such as there economies is in ruins after the war currrently, or do we find a more prgressive solution to this problem? This is what I see as a shadow of ww1 and we seem to be making at least some of the mistakes over again. They say Facsism was born from the ashes of ww1 in germany. I do not think it is hard to see this supposed Islamo-fascism the right always talks about being born from the Iraqi war and the downfall of the seculer government.
Thats where I see history being mirriored.
Jersay, to be fare to ITN, he is thinking generally only of the 1930's when it comes to ww2. So yes during the 1930's the only way to prevent Hitler and Germany from doing what it did was for direct action. What I was talking about is what caused Hitler and the general german reactions which takes place as early as ww1 but largely during the 1920's. If things were changed in the 1920's I highly doubt we would have had to worry about Hitler. Of course the right wing and even the extreme left wing tend to over look the fact that it was 1920 policies which crushed germany economically which lead to the crisis in in the 1930's in which by that time the right wing becomes right and direct action was the only real solution in which many nations were extremely hesitant to take, yet in the 20's extremely liberal on economic crushing policies towards germany.
So ITN is right and wrong. But compairing ww2 and ww1 to the current events is somewhat.... hard to do at best. Perhaps how we treat Iraq after defeating them in war is the best situation. Do we keep them down like we did Germany after ww2, occupying parts of it which the people will tend to remember. Hurt them economically, such as there economies is in ruins after the war currrently, or do we find a more prgressive solution to this problem? This is what I see as a shadow of ww1 and we seem to be making at least some of the mistakes over again. They say Facsism was born from the ashes of ww1 in germany. I do not think it is hard to see this supposed Islamo-fascism the right always talks about being born from the Iraqi war and the downfall of the seculer government.
Thats where I see history being mirriored.
Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 10,505
Location: The Evil Empire
Location: The Evil Empire
June 19th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Finder
I'm not quite sure how many ways I can explain it to you what I am trying to convey. So let me start from scratch. And don’t post any definitions, I’m well aware of what I’m talking about.
Since your keen on definitions, I’ll make multiculturalism short for you, maintaining an identity that is different from the combined masses. It is in fact, in my opinion a divisive force. There should be an anticipated degree of multiculturalism, but by far and large integration should be exercised. By integration I do not mean abandon your culture, that would make America and Canada, very boring in my opinion. Every immigrant that has arrived in North America has brought with them food, songs, art, literature, hard work, languages etc. They have maintained their culture. BUT, they have also integrated into our societies (Hold this thought on Canada for a bit).
Europeans define multiculturalism as a group of immigrants being segregated into ghettos. This is made abundantly clear if you look at the demographics of Europe, where the concentrations of immigrants are located. This is in fact the preferred [European] method of dealing with immigration. For Europeans it has always been us and them, nothing has changed in that regard. You have to understand (unless you are aware of it already), Europe hasn’t changed much over the centuries in terms of “elitism” and “feudalism”. A young man or woman in Canada or the US can start from cleaning toilets to become members of the Supreme Court, Government and other “high ranking” positions. In Europe, they are bred from birth to govern, whether they are on the left or the right of the political spectrum, it is inconceivable to climb the political ladder in Europe, although there have been exceptions, unless you are part of a group of elitists.
These elitists are the ones that make policy, anybody that deviates from the “norm” is attacked by the press with fervor. Tell me Finder, have you ever been to Europe? If you have, then you should know what I am talking about, if not, allow me to elaborate a bit. One is hard pressed to find dissenting opinions on critical issues anywhere in Europe and when there are a few dissenting voices, they get struck down and ridiculed by the rest of the media. Take the Iraq War for example, all of the European media was condemning the Iraq War. It is not important for our discussion whether or not the war was justified, what matters is, the lack of differing opinions on the subject. This is typical approach with any issue. Same for multiculturalism, their planned failed and nobody wants to address it because they are full of political correctness up their arse.
These elitists believed that immigrants would marry the “local” population and eventually become integrated. Didn’t happen. Because of “family reunification”. Immigration laws in many Western European countries permit a citizen or permanent resident to bring over sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, husbands, wives you name it, they can bring them over. Not only did they not integrate, but they became more isolated by becoming more fundamentalists because what they see in Western Europe is an affront to their entire belief system. All women are *****s, homosexuals should be summarily put to death, women’s rights are non-sense, they disobey they get beaten etc.
Do you really want to keep separate a religion that preaches these things? Islam means “submission” at least in its fundamentalist form it demands nothing less. They have been taught that they owe no deference to any non-believer, whether they are police officers, teachers or government, because in the eyes of God, no non-Muslim has a legitimate right to occupy a position of power over Muslims. They are an increasing threat in Europe and Europeans are starting to wake up, even the left parties have begun drawing the lines.
Now, a reference to the US. There are many Americans (black race) that refer to themselves as African-American, do you know why? Because they have YET to integrate into American society, any form of hyphenated American has not integrated. This was caused by, what else? Segregation. What is happening in Europe happened in the US 50 years ago, and they have learned nothing. The only difference here is, which makes it dangerous, is their fundamentalist religion.
Ok, I got tired, can’t type anymore. I'll get into my explanation of WWI and so forth tomorrow.
Finder
I'm not quite sure how many ways I can explain it to you what I am trying to convey. So let me start from scratch. And don’t post any definitions, I’m well aware of what I’m talking about.
Since your keen on definitions, I’ll make multiculturalism short for you, maintaining an identity that is different from the combined masses. It is in fact, in my opinion a divisive force. There should be an anticipated degree of multiculturalism, but by far and large integration should be exercised. By integration I do not mean abandon your culture, that would make America and Canada, very boring in my opinion. Every immigrant that has arrived in North America has brought with them food, songs, art, literature, hard work, languages etc. They have maintained their culture. BUT, they have also integrated into our societies (Hold this thought on Canada for a bit).
Europeans define multiculturalism as a group of immigrants being segregated into ghettos. This is made abundantly clear if you look at the demographics of Europe, where the concentrations of immigrants are located. This is in fact the preferred [European] method of dealing with immigration. For Europeans it has always been us and them, nothing has changed in that regard. You have to understand (unless you are aware of it already), Europe hasn’t changed much over the centuries in terms of “elitism” and “feudalism”. A young man or woman in Canada or the US can start from cleaning toilets to become members of the Supreme Court, Government and other “high ranking” positions. In Europe, they are bred from birth to govern, whether they are on the left or the right of the political spectrum, it is inconceivable to climb the political ladder in Europe, although there have been exceptions, unless you are part of a group of elitists.
These elitists are the ones that make policy, anybody that deviates from the “norm” is attacked by the press with fervor. Tell me Finder, have you ever been to Europe? If you have, then you should know what I am talking about, if not, allow me to elaborate a bit. One is hard pressed to find dissenting opinions on critical issues anywhere in Europe and when there are a few dissenting voices, they get struck down and ridiculed by the rest of the media. Take the Iraq War for example, all of the European media was condemning the Iraq War. It is not important for our discussion whether or not the war was justified, what matters is, the lack of differing opinions on the subject. This is typical approach with any issue. Same for multiculturalism, their planned failed and nobody wants to address it because they are full of political correctness up their arse.
These elitists believed that immigrants would marry the “local” population and eventually become integrated. Didn’t happen. Because of “family reunification”. Immigration laws in many Western European countries permit a citizen or permanent resident to bring over sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, husbands, wives you name it, they can bring them over. Not only did they not integrate, but they became more isolated by becoming more fundamentalists because what they see in Western Europe is an affront to their entire belief system. All women are *****s, homosexuals should be summarily put to death, women’s rights are non-sense, they disobey they get beaten etc.
Do you really want to keep separate a religion that preaches these things? Islam means “submission” at least in its fundamentalist form it demands nothing less. They have been taught that they owe no deference to any non-believer, whether they are police officers, teachers or government, because in the eyes of God, no non-Muslim has a legitimate right to occupy a position of power over Muslims. They are an increasing threat in Europe and Europeans are starting to wake up, even the left parties have begun drawing the lines.
Now, a reference to the US. There are many Americans (black race) that refer to themselves as African-American, do you know why? Because they have YET to integrate into American society, any form of hyphenated American has not integrated. This was caused by, what else? Segregation. What is happening in Europe happened in the US 50 years ago, and they have learned nothing. The only difference here is, which makes it dangerous, is their fundamentalist religion.
Ok, I got tired, can’t type anymore. I'll get into my explanation of WWI and so forth tomorrow.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
June 19th, 2006, 07:46 PM
I have been to Europe, and you are right about what you said. But generally this is prevalent in the UK, as the Class system though weakend greatly over the years is still there. But in France, and in many other places in Europe I would have to disagree with you. The government does not place these people into the ghettos, but these are economic divides which have happend to a greater extend naturally from less government interferance in society. The reason immigrant refugee's and by in large immigrants in general do not usually have great sums of money and can not afford the best housing. So they buy housing they can afford. Meaning you will have immigrants often in low cost housing. Now these people are coming from different counties and since they have few resources they usually think since they have next to nothing who can help me.... Friends and family. They come from the same country so they end up living close to each other. Time this buy the number of immigrants you get over a 100 year time you've pretty much made a little china, little Italy or whatever.
I don't think in todays societies, in Europe or North America, it is exceptable to send a facsist or communist army down these streets and tell people you have to spread out like they did to the Chechens in the soviet union or as the germans did in nazi germany. But you are right as I've read in some of your other posts this is what the Islamo-facists tend to do at times, in some counties, at least the extremists do this. But really what are you telling me, to fight them we have to become them? No I don't accept that.
Also your view on how Europeans see multicultualism is very odd and at best perhaps communists and extreme lefts in these coutnies may believe there government is putting these people into ghettos, and generally you are right they should do something to intergrade these people better into society and perhaps that is one of the problems. But if that is so, what you see as multiculteralism, is indeed what multiculturalism isn't.
I have been to Europe, and you are right about what you said. But generally this is prevalent in the UK, as the Class system though weakend greatly over the years is still there. But in France, and in many other places in Europe I would have to disagree with you. The government does not place these people into the ghettos, but these are economic divides which have happend to a greater extend naturally from less government interferance in society. The reason immigrant refugee's and by in large immigrants in general do not usually have great sums of money and can not afford the best housing. So they buy housing they can afford. Meaning you will have immigrants often in low cost housing. Now these people are coming from different counties and since they have few resources they usually think since they have next to nothing who can help me.... Friends and family. They come from the same country so they end up living close to each other. Time this buy the number of immigrants you get over a 100 year time you've pretty much made a little china, little Italy or whatever.
I don't think in todays societies, in Europe or North America, it is exceptable to send a facsist or communist army down these streets and tell people you have to spread out like they did to the Chechens in the soviet union or as the germans did in nazi germany. But you are right as I've read in some of your other posts this is what the Islamo-facists tend to do at times, in some counties, at least the extremists do this. But really what are you telling me, to fight them we have to become them? No I don't accept that.
Also your view on how Europeans see multicultualism is very odd and at best perhaps communists and extreme lefts in these coutnies may believe there government is putting these people into ghettos, and generally you are right they should do something to intergrade these people better into society and perhaps that is one of the problems. But if that is so, what you see as multiculteralism, is indeed what multiculturalism isn't.
Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 10,505
Location: The Evil Empire
Location: The Evil Empire
June 19th, 2006, 07:59 PM
Finder
I just want to make one quick comment before I go after reading your post. I am not suggesting we become them, I am suggesting that multiculturalism must turn into integration. In order to achieve this, opportunities must be given to immigrants in Europe, the same opportunities given to everybody else. And other things must be done also. Example, when immigrants arrive in Europe, they can take courses to further research their traditions and culture at the expense of the states. I mean, what logic does this have? If you go to a new country, you would think the new county would offer seminars or classes helping you to integrate into your new society, not stay away from it.
Finder
I just want to make one quick comment before I go after reading your post. I am not suggesting we become them, I am suggesting that multiculturalism must turn into integration. In order to achieve this, opportunities must be given to immigrants in Europe, the same opportunities given to everybody else. And other things must be done also. Example, when immigrants arrive in Europe, they can take courses to further research their traditions and culture at the expense of the states. I mean, what logic does this have? If you go to a new country, you would think the new county would offer seminars or classes helping you to integrate into your new society, not stay away from it.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 3,786
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
June 19th, 2006, 08:07 PM
ITN
I agree we should highlight integration more in multicultualism, to a point. But I still have to disagree with you on some points as in many parts of Europe they have been integrating immigrants more and more. I can not speak for all parts of Europe but in Northern Europe and France I know this to be true. However the economic problems still increase intolerance towards french society I know that as well. But the only way for the french government to correct that would be to make even harder leftist economic policies (which I do not think you support) or anti immigration policies to what extent I do not know what your solution to the problem is beyound just saying they should be integrated.
But yes you are right to a point mulitcultualism should have a blending of keeping ones culture but also accepting cultural norms of the hoast country as well. I totally agree with you on this one. I'll even go further and say the NDP needs to re-learn this as well. At one point they did understand this but they tend to take up the extreme end of multicultualism were the host counties culture means less then the immigrants.
Such as changing our seculer nation to adopt there religous traditions in puplic life.
ITN
I agree we should highlight integration more in multicultualism, to a point. But I still have to disagree with you on some points as in many parts of Europe they have been integrating immigrants more and more. I can not speak for all parts of Europe but in Northern Europe and France I know this to be true. However the economic problems still increase intolerance towards french society I know that as well. But the only way for the french government to correct that would be to make even harder leftist economic policies (which I do not think you support) or anti immigration policies to what extent I do not know what your solution to the problem is beyound just saying they should be integrated.
But yes you are right to a point mulitcultualism should have a blending of keeping ones culture but also accepting cultural norms of the hoast country as well. I totally agree with you on this one. I'll even go further and say the NDP needs to re-learn this as well. At one point they did understand this but they tend to take up the extreme end of multicultualism were the host counties culture means less then the immigrants.
Such as changing our seculer nation to adopt there religous traditions in puplic life.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,838
Location: Independent Palestine
Location: Independent Palestine
June 19th, 2006, 09:21 PM
Quoting
Oh my god. I can finally understand what you are saying and I can agree with it somewhat especially with what occured in France. But that doesn't deal with multi-culturalism that has to deal with what is occuring the mentality that occurs in Europe. And like you say in Canada and America then that shouldn't effect both countries as much. And finally, how does this European mentality do with a 'Muslim' threat when it is the mentality of the Europeans that have too change?
Finder
I'm not quite sure how many ways I can explain it to you what I am trying to convey. So let me start from scratch. And don’t post any definitions, I’m well aware of what I’m talking about.
Since your keen on definitions, I’ll make multiculturalism short for you, maintaining an identity that is different from the combined masses. It is in fact, in my opinion a divisive force. There should be an anticipated degree of multiculturalism, but by far and large integration should be exercised. By integration I do not mean abandon your culture, that would make America and Canada, very boring in my opinion. Every immigrant that has arrived in North America has brought with them food, songs, art, literature, hard work, languages etc. They have maintained their culture. BUT, they have also integrated into our societies (Hold this thought on Canada for a bit).
Europeans define multiculturalism as a group of immigrants being segregated into ghettos. This is made abundantly clear if you look at the demographics of Europe, where the concentrations of immigrants are located. This is in fact the preferred [European] method of dealing with immigration. For Europeans it has always been us and them, nothing has changed in that regard. You have to understand (unless you are aware of it already), Europe hasn’t changed much over the centuries in terms of “elitism” and “feudalism”. A young man or woman in Canada or the US can start from cleaning toilets to become members of the Supreme Court, Government and other “high ranking” positions. In Europe, they are bred from birth to govern, whether they are on the left or the right of the political spectrum, it is inconceivable to climb the political ladder in Europe, although there have been exceptions, unless you are part of a group of elitists.
These elitists are the ones that make policy, anybody that deviates from the “norm” is attacked by the press with fervor. Tell me Finder, have you ever been to Europe? If you have, then you should know what I am talking about, if not, allow me to elaborate a bit. One is hard pressed to find dissenting opinions on critical issues anywhere in Europe and when there are a few dissenting voices, they get struck down and ridiculed by the rest of the media. Take the Iraq War for example, all of the European media was condemning the Iraq War. It is not important for our discussion whether or not the war was justified, what matters is, the lack of differing opinions on the subject. This is typical approach with any issue. Same for multiculturalism, their planned failed and nobody wants to address it because they are full of political correctness up their arse.
These elitists believed that immigrants would marry the “local” population and eventually become integrated. Didn’t happen. Because of “family reunification”. Immigration laws in many Western European countries permit a citizen or permanent resident to bring over sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, husbands, wives you name it, they can bring them over. Not only did they not integrate, but they became more isolated by becoming more fundamentalists because what they see in Western Europe is an affront to their entire belief system. All women are *****s, homosexuals should be summarily put to death, women’s rights are non-sense, they disobey they get beaten etc.
Do you really want to keep separate a religion that preaches these things? Islam means “submission” at least in its fundamentalist form it demands nothing less. They have been taught that they owe no deference to any non-believer, whether they are police officers, teachers or government, because in the eyes of God, no non-Muslim has a legitimate right to occupy a position of power over Muslims. They are an increasing threat in Europe and Europeans are starting to wake up, even the left parties have begun drawing the lines.
Now, a reference to the US. There are many Americans (black race) that refer to themselves as African-American, do you know why? Because they have YET to integrate into American society, any form of hyphenated American has not integrated. This was caused by, what else? Segregation. What is happening in Europe happened in the US 50 years ago, and they have learned nothing. The only difference here is, which makes it dangerous, is their fundamentalist religion.
Ok, I got tired, can’t type anymore. I'll get into my explanation of WWI and so forth tomorrow.
I'm not quite sure how many ways I can explain it to you what I am trying to convey. So let me start from scratch. And don’t post any definitions, I’m well aware of what I’m talking about.
Since your keen on definitions, I’ll make multiculturalism short for you, maintaining an identity that is different from the combined masses. It is in fact, in my opinion a divisive force. There should be an anticipated degree of multiculturalism, but by far and large integration should be exercised. By integration I do not mean abandon your culture, that would make America and Canada, very boring in my opinion. Every immigrant that has arrived in North America has brought with them food, songs, art, literature, hard work, languages etc. They have maintained their culture. BUT, they have also integrated into our societies (Hold this thought on Canada for a bit).
Europeans define multiculturalism as a group of immigrants being segregated into ghettos. This is made abundantly clear if you look at the demographics of Europe, where the concentrations of immigrants are located. This is in fact the preferred [European] method of dealing with immigration. For Europeans it has always been us and them, nothing has changed in that regard. You have to understand (unless you are aware of it already), Europe hasn’t changed much over the centuries in terms of “elitism” and “feudalism”. A young man or woman in Canada or the US can start from cleaning toilets to become members of the Supreme Court, Government and other “high ranking” positions. In Europe, they are bred from birth to govern, whether they are on the left or the right of the political spectrum, it is inconceivable to climb the political ladder in Europe, although there have been exceptions, unless you are part of a group of elitists.
These elitists are the ones that make policy, anybody that deviates from the “norm” is attacked by the press with fervor. Tell me Finder, have you ever been to Europe? If you have, then you should know what I am talking about, if not, allow me to elaborate a bit. One is hard pressed to find dissenting opinions on critical issues anywhere in Europe and when there are a few dissenting voices, they get struck down and ridiculed by the rest of the media. Take the Iraq War for example, all of the European media was condemning the Iraq War. It is not important for our discussion whether or not the war was justified, what matters is, the lack of differing opinions on the subject. This is typical approach with any issue. Same for multiculturalism, their planned failed and nobody wants to address it because they are full of political correctness up their arse.
These elitists believed that immigrants would marry the “local” population and eventually become integrated. Didn’t happen. Because of “family reunification”. Immigration laws in many Western European countries permit a citizen or permanent resident to bring over sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, husbands, wives you name it, they can bring them over. Not only did they not integrate, but they became more isolated by becoming more fundamentalists because what they see in Western Europe is an affront to their entire belief system. All women are *****s, homosexuals should be summarily put to death, women’s rights are non-sense, they disobey they get beaten etc.
Do you really want to keep separate a religion that preaches these things? Islam means “submission” at least in its fundamentalist form it demands nothing less. They have been taught that they owe no deference to any non-believer, whether they are police officers, teachers or government, because in the eyes of God, no non-Muslim has a legitimate right to occupy a position of power over Muslims. They are an increasing threat in Europe and Europeans are starting to wake up, even the left parties have begun drawing the lines.
Now, a reference to the US. There are many Americans (black race) that refer to themselves as African-American, do you know why? Because they have YET to integrate into American society, any form of hyphenated American has not integrated. This was caused by, what else? Segregation. What is happening in Europe happened in the US 50 years ago, and they have learned nothing. The only difference here is, which makes it dangerous, is their fundamentalist religion.
Ok, I got tired, can’t type anymore. I'll get into my explanation of WWI and so forth tomorrow.
Council Member
Posts: 1,469
Location: Great Satan
Location: Great Satan
July 7th, 2006, 11:14 AM
Here's another gem for the apologists of the religion of peace...
"Miss your prayers and you die"
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ticleid=276425
Nice huh?
Apparently watching the World Cup can get you killed too...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html
Here's another gem for the apologists of the religion of peace...
"Miss your prayers and you die"
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ticleid=276425
Nice huh?
Apparently watching the World Cup can get you killed too...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html
Genius
Posts: 985
Location: CsL, Mtl, Qc, Ca, NA, Er, SS,MW, Un
Location: CsL, Mtl, Qc, Ca, NA, Er, SS,MW, Un
July 7th, 2006, 11:40 AM
Quoting
Here's another gem for the apologists of the religion of peace...
"Miss your prayers and you die"
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ticleid=276425
Nice huh?
Apparently watching the World Cup can get you killed too...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html
"Miss your prayers and you die"
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ticleid=276425
Nice huh?
Apparently watching the World Cup can get you killed too...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html
Quote:
for radicals anything can be an excuse. You still cannot blame the whole Muslim population for some radicals in Somalia.
Radical Islamic militia fighters in central Somalia shot and killed two people at the screening of a banned World Cup soccer ...
Newbie
Posts: 13
Location: Toronto
Location: Toronto
July 7th, 2006, 01:28 PM
Quoting
Thumbs up!! I'm on your side X 1000000
I'm an atheist and don't give a darn about what religions are 'suppose to be'...all love and hugs. What counts is what they are in the reality in today's world.. All this crap about Islam isn't really this and Christianity isn't really that isn't worth a pile of doo-doo when someone wants to set off bombs in my country and kill my family.
There are millions among the billion Muslims who want to kill my family and I don't really care if these millions are the real Muslims or not or 'how the Koran preaches murder but doesn't'. When someone wears the Muslim label and wants to set off a bomb and kill my children in the name of Allah, I don't give a rat's as about the theological debates. I want Muslims to show how they aren't going to hurt my family or I want them to stay away as far as possible.
I'm no longer accepting of the 'good ' Muslim declaring how they condemn terrorism and then add a 'but' after the comment. the backhand condoning of the actions of terrorist nutbars is not acceptable.
There are millions among the billion Muslims who want to kill my family and I don't really care if these millions are the real Muslims or not or 'how the Koran preaches murder but doesn't'. When someone wears the Muslim label and wants to set off a bomb and kill my children in the name of Allah, I don't give a rat's as about the theological debates. I want Muslims to show how they aren't going to hurt my family or I want them to stay away as far as possible.
I'm no longer accepting of the 'good ' Muslim declaring how they condemn terrorism and then add a 'but' after the comment. the backhand condoning of the actions of terrorist nutbars is not acceptable.
Newbie
Posts: 14
October 10th, 2006, 11:16 AM
Now Saadia, i think you should get your facts right because in case you haven't noticed some people namely the Americans keep invading muslim countries and you're outta your mind if you're somehow opposed to the fact that muslims aren't cowardly enough to sit in their homes and watch the day go by while foreigners are destroying their countries for no apparent reason. The people you're calling bad are defending themselves.
Quoting Jersay
good point Jersay.
Where do we get these new nutjobs.
Simple, there are bad parts of Islam, but go to Northern Ireland, the Catholic and the Protestants hate each other. Last time I checked they weren't Muslim.
Dah!
Simple, there are bad parts of Islam, but go to Northern Ireland, the Catholic and the Protestants hate each other. Last time I checked they weren't Muslim.
Dah!
Now Saadia, i think you should get your facts right because in case you haven't noticed some people namely the Americans keep invading muslim countries and you're outta your mind if you're somehow opposed to the fact that muslims aren't cowardly enough to sit in their homes and watch the day go by while foreigners are destroying their countries for no apparent reason. The people you're calling bad are defending themselves.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,976
October 10th, 2006, 11:38 AM
What about the Arab Extremist Muslims that have invaded Somalia and forced their Extreme Version of Islam down the Somalis throats, if Somalians don't practice these Mad Dogs' Version of Islam they slaughter them like Cattle. They have raged a "Holy War" in a Country that isn't theirs. Peaceful I don't think so. I could detail endless cases of Muslims killing Muslims and Christians for sport oh sorry in the name of Allah. It's not about the Americans it's about Muslim Extremist wanting the entire world to bend to their Fanatical Evil Ways, the US is just the sword to slow them down.
What about the Arab Extremist Muslims that have invaded Somalia and forced their Extreme Version of Islam down the Somalis throats, if Somalians don't practice these Mad Dogs' Version of Islam they slaughter them like Cattle. They have raged a "Holy War" in a Country that isn't theirs. Peaceful I don't think so. I could detail endless cases of Muslims killing Muslims and Christians for sport oh sorry in the name of Allah. It's not about the Americans it's about Muslim Extremist wanting the entire world to bend to their Fanatical Evil Ways, the US is just the sword to slow them down.
