Knows No Bounds
Posts: 3,414 
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
Videos: 2
Location: 50° 30' N, 104° 38' W
May 12th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Quoting
To whom are you speaking, and about what?
That you would try to deny that your resposibilities lie in making the choices you do is utterly unacceptable.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,515
Location: Changchun, China
Location: Changchun, China
May 12th, 2006, 07:40 PM
I've read all the posts here, and interesting ideas. But I'd be curious. For those of you who argue that you choose what you beleive, may i ask you to try a little experiment today. Look at the floor under your feet and convince yourself it doesn't exist. And I mean completely doesn't exit, not just redefinition.
For example, you could argue that nothing exists and it's all in the mind. Fine, then get that floor out of your mind if you can. You might argue that that floor is just somepart of a cosmic mirage. Fine then, try to put your hand through it. You get the idea. Literally try to get that floor out of your head altogether, as a non-existent, and then come back and say belief is a choice.
Now I could just say the floor doesn't exist, but I would still not believe myself. So here I don't want you to just say the floor doesn't exist. I want you to genuinely believe it from the bottom of your heart, to the extent that you simply couldn't understand how anyone could beleive there is a floor under your feet.
If you can do that, then certainly you have prooven that you can indeed choose what you want to beleive. If you can't, as I can't, then like me what you believe is beyond your choice to make.
I've read all the posts here, and interesting ideas. But I'd be curious. For those of you who argue that you choose what you beleive, may i ask you to try a little experiment today. Look at the floor under your feet and convince yourself it doesn't exist. And I mean completely doesn't exit, not just redefinition.
For example, you could argue that nothing exists and it's all in the mind. Fine, then get that floor out of your mind if you can. You might argue that that floor is just somepart of a cosmic mirage. Fine then, try to put your hand through it. You get the idea. Literally try to get that floor out of your head altogether, as a non-existent, and then come back and say belief is a choice.
Now I could just say the floor doesn't exist, but I would still not believe myself. So here I don't want you to just say the floor doesn't exist. I want you to genuinely believe it from the bottom of your heart, to the extent that you simply couldn't understand how anyone could beleive there is a floor under your feet.
If you can do that, then certainly you have prooven that you can indeed choose what you want to beleive. If you can't, as I can't, then like me what you believe is beyond your choice to make.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,515
Location: Changchun, China
Location: Changchun, China
May 12th, 2006, 07:45 PM
Or to take another example.You want to marry, but your potential wife to be, whom you love deeply, says you must adopt her/his faith. Now if you can do that, then it's certainly your choice. If on the other hand, by doing that you feel guilty and sincerely believe you did the wrong thing and wished you did not believe your faith but believed hers instead for convenience, yet you still believe your faith and not hers even if you do pretend, then again it's not a choice. So I might be wrong, and maybe some peopel can choose what to believe at will. I just have a hard time believing it since everything I have ever believed all my life has never been out of choice.
It is not even my choice to believe that 1+1=2. It's just too logical. As for the floor, it's too palpable. As for God, that's one's bizare. i used to not believe, now I do, And in both cases it was never a matter of choice. When I didn't, I didn't. Now I do, I do. I don't know why, I just do.
Or to take another example.You want to marry, but your potential wife to be, whom you love deeply, says you must adopt her/his faith. Now if you can do that, then it's certainly your choice. If on the other hand, by doing that you feel guilty and sincerely believe you did the wrong thing and wished you did not believe your faith but believed hers instead for convenience, yet you still believe your faith and not hers even if you do pretend, then again it's not a choice. So I might be wrong, and maybe some peopel can choose what to believe at will. I just have a hard time believing it since everything I have ever believed all my life has never been out of choice.
It is not even my choice to believe that 1+1=2. It's just too logical. As for the floor, it's too palpable. As for God, that's one's bizare. i used to not believe, now I do, And in both cases it was never a matter of choice. When I didn't, I didn't. Now I do, I do. I don't know why, I just do.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,515
Location: Changchun, China
Location: Changchun, China
May 12th, 2006, 07:49 PM
Oh, and let us not confuse belief with free will. Certainly a person who believes murder is wrong still has the free will to kill if he is enraged enough. That still doesn't mean he has the ability to convince himself afterwards taht he was right. He might be able to come to a belief that he is forgiven. But could he, through various mind games, come to believe he did the right thing? A thief might steal if he's hungry enough. But if he beleives theft is wrong, he might still have a guilty conscience. Now if he can freely choose to beleive what he believes, he could then simply choose to believe he did the right thing. The question is, does man have that power.
Oh, and let us not confuse belief with free will. Certainly a person who believes murder is wrong still has the free will to kill if he is enraged enough. That still doesn't mean he has the ability to convince himself afterwards taht he was right. He might be able to come to a belief that he is forgiven. But could he, through various mind games, come to believe he did the right thing? A thief might steal if he's hungry enough. But if he beleives theft is wrong, he might still have a guilty conscience. Now if he can freely choose to beleive what he believes, he could then simply choose to believe he did the right thing. The question is, does man have that power.
