Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,694 
Location: California
Location: California
December 26th, 2006, 05:26 PM
If you're talking about a political or cultural scale, I don't see how you can't see the differences between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia or India (which has one of the world's largest muslim populations) and Turkey or Pakistan and Bangladesh. I see the same thing with Islam that we used to do with communism. If we have an enemy philosophy we tend to lump all followers together. In the 60s there was a notion that China was the same as Russia was the same as Cuba was the same as Czechoslovakia, etc. They weren't. It's no different with Islam. Shia and Sunni is the clearest difference. I don't see how that can be denied.
Quoting CDNBear
Just look around you. I have friends who are muslims. They are certainly capable of living in a democracy, they aren't looking to kill infidels, they aren't trying to introduce sharia law, they aren't wearing burquas, they don't repress Christians, the men aren't uneducated women beaters, the women aren't submissive victims. They live normal lives. They've never made me, the agnostic, feel unwelcome. I've been the recipient of such kindness from one particular family down here because they knew I had no family of my own nearby. When people talk about muslims all wanting to recreate their repressive homelands in America, I think of them and it doesn't fit.
Some proof please?
If you're talking about a political or cultural scale, I don't see how you can't see the differences between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia or India (which has one of the world's largest muslim populations) and Turkey or Pakistan and Bangladesh. I see the same thing with Islam that we used to do with communism. If we have an enemy philosophy we tend to lump all followers together. In the 60s there was a notion that China was the same as Russia was the same as Cuba was the same as Czechoslovakia, etc. They weren't. It's no different with Islam. Shia and Sunni is the clearest difference. I don't see how that can be denied.
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,361
December 26th, 2006, 05:43 PM
Quoting Zzarchov
That's essentially social evolution right there. It's progress. And it happens all the time.
Like finishing your last beer at a bar, then vowing never to drink again and immediately stand up and critisize all the lousy drunks in the bar who are destroying their lives and the fabric of society.
December 26th, 2006, 06:18 PM
I understand your views, we've discussed them before, and I believe I even defended them at one point from attack by another rather zealous member, and I agree with you for the most part.
I have a Muslim Sri Lankan associate(I hate the word employee). He wished me Merry Christmas, yet does not celebrate it. That is not only divirsity, it is class and respect. I gave him a Christmas bonus, equal to those that have been with me since I could not afford to give them, because he has contributed greatly to my work force. Now that I finished patting myself on the back.
There is very little divirsity in his native country, hence his presence here. He is the first to say, "It's their way or the highway to heaven". This is coming from a Muslim. That's a pretty damning statement, under the surcomstances, don't you think?
Here in the West, yes the Muslims and Islamic community is pretty diverse, but it is not without its draw backs, or throw backs to a cultural dispossion to spread faith by violence.
Quoting tracy
Actually, I probably should have said "Some clarification please".
Just look around you. I have friends who are muslims. They are certainly capable of living in a democracy, they aren't looking to kill infidels, they aren't trying to introduce sharia law, they aren't wearing burquas, they don't repress Christians, the men aren't uneducated women beaters, the women aren't submissive victims. They live normal lives. They've never made me, the agnostic, feel unwelcome. I've been the recipient of such kindness from one particular family down here because they knew I had no family of my own nearby. When people talk about muslims all wanting to recreate their repressive homelands in America, I think of them and it doesn't fit.
If you're talking about a political or cultural scale, I don't see how you can't see the differences between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia or India (which has one of the world's largest muslim populations) and Turkey or Pakistan and Bangladesh. I see the same thing with Islam that we used to do with communism. If we have an enemy philosophy we tend to lump all followers together. In the 60s there was a notion that China was the same as Russia was the same as Cuba was the same as Czechoslovakia, etc. They weren't. It's no different with Islam. Shia and Sunni is the clearest difference. I don't see how that can be denied.
If you're talking about a political or cultural scale, I don't see how you can't see the differences between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia or India (which has one of the world's largest muslim populations) and Turkey or Pakistan and Bangladesh. I see the same thing with Islam that we used to do with communism. If we have an enemy philosophy we tend to lump all followers together. In the 60s there was a notion that China was the same as Russia was the same as Cuba was the same as Czechoslovakia, etc. They weren't. It's no different with Islam. Shia and Sunni is the clearest difference. I don't see how that can be denied.
I understand your views, we've discussed them before, and I believe I even defended them at one point from attack by another rather zealous member, and I agree with you for the most part.
I have a Muslim Sri Lankan associate(I hate the word employee). He wished me Merry Christmas, yet does not celebrate it. That is not only divirsity, it is class and respect. I gave him a Christmas bonus, equal to those that have been with me since I could not afford to give them, because he has contributed greatly to my work force. Now that I finished patting myself on the back.
There is very little divirsity in his native country, hence his presence here. He is the first to say, "It's their way or the highway to heaven". This is coming from a Muslim. That's a pretty damning statement, under the surcomstances, don't you think?
Here in the West, yes the Muslims and Islamic community is pretty diverse, but it is not without its draw backs, or throw backs to a cultural dispossion to spread faith by violence.
Quoting Just the Facts
And it is repugnantly hypocritical. In either case.
That's essentially social evolution right there. It's progress. And it happens all the time.
Newbie
Posts: 17
December 26th, 2006, 06:36 PM
MY man.. The videos you see of these little kids strap with bombs with some guy (usually their father)...they just show that, cause even though palestinians' dont have an army, they are still proud of their kids, and hope someday their kids can defend the country as well...unlike in israel. They usually train teenagers which is compulsary. I dont need to give you proof for that, cause my jewish girl friend told me about this, and one of my jewish friend went back to do this army training!! I dont think there is any excuse israel can provide to justify destroying a hospital, or people's home or even shooting at kids that only defend themselves with rocks!! ?? Maybe you should step in the shoes of your enemy and think about this.. why would someone want to sucide...its not as easy as it sounds..!
Trust me...people dont do this just because they are "lunatics"... when their basic human needs are not being met' how do you expect them to live on!! anyhow..I am not saying Isreal shouldnt defend itself...it has all the right to do so.. but considering their own strength, they should show some compasion atleast for the young ones..!!
Ohh yes because of westbank and gaza attack on isreal...it has heavy casualties that need the help of United states?? and support from the rest.. Let me be clear, isreal is not the one who is defending right now. (or when they were fighting, it wasnt the one defending) So if there is anyone that needs support, its should be those "lunatics"!
I cant provide you with an exact source for the first one, because it was done on cnn by one of these group debates where they shared figures for all of this!! It was however concluded that most people werent in favor of going to war in Iraq, but U.S government still went for it.
There are alot of muslim countries which are free or "democratic"! With only a few exceptions like iran or saudi arabia... The only reason they are different is because of their cultural values and the way things were good for them for generations, the people of the country dont want to be imposed by democratic rules!! (period)
umm, they would have military objectives if palestinians' had a military! hamas is just non-funded organization that has no hierachy, which just consists of civilians.. there is no point in calling that a military.. you can call them a resistance force..or in Cnn terms "radical islamists" haha
Most developing muslim nations have freedom of thinking, religion and speech!! Dont generalize it okay... and I cannot provide you with a list.. I can only give you a couple of examples..if you want to write an essay or report, I suggest you do the rest of the research yourself!!
Example: indonesia
Religion: Indonesia is a predominantly Muslim country with Muslims accounting for 85% of the population and Christians accounting for 7.5%. The remaining population includes Hindus, Buddhists and animists. Despite the prevalence of the Muslim religion nationally, religion in Indonesia tends to be quite regionally based. It is possible to find areas of Christian majority, and Hinduism is the majority religion in Bali.
Example: India
Religions:
Census data indicates that 96% of the population are Muslims, of whom nearly 80% are Sunni Muslims and 19% are Shi'a Muslims. The remainder comprises of Christians, Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Parsis, Ahmadis, Buddhists, and Animists (mainly the Kalasha of Chitral).
I can go on and search for all other 50 whatever muslim countries and share how many other religions the country consists off..and if it didnt have freedom of religion, those other minorities wouldnt be there!! Hope thats clear now.
ill keep my mouth shut then.
Quote:
Oh, baloney!
You have Arab clerics issuing fatwas delaring Jewish babies as future Israeli soldiers so idiots with explosive belts can kill them with religious impunity.........and expect their reward as martyrs. When Israel withdraws from Gaza......with plans for large scale withdrawals from the West Bank, the areas they leave become instant staging spots for attacks on Israel. When Israel withdrew from Lebanon, they left it to Hezbollah, who want to kill all Jews..............
You have Arab clerics issuing fatwas delaring Jewish babies as future Israeli soldiers so idiots with explosive belts can kill them with religious impunity.........and expect their reward as martyrs. When Israel withdraws from Gaza......with plans for large scale withdrawals from the West Bank, the areas they leave become instant staging spots for attacks on Israel. When Israel withdrew from Lebanon, they left it to Hezbollah, who want to kill all Jews..............
MY man.. The videos you see of these little kids strap with bombs with some guy (usually their father)...they just show that, cause even though palestinians' dont have an army, they are still proud of their kids, and hope someday their kids can defend the country as well...unlike in israel. They usually train teenagers which is compulsary. I dont need to give you proof for that, cause my jewish girl friend told me about this, and one of my jewish friend went back to do this army training!! I dont think there is any excuse israel can provide to justify destroying a hospital, or people's home or even shooting at kids that only defend themselves with rocks!! ?? Maybe you should step in the shoes of your enemy and think about this.. why would someone want to sucide...its not as easy as it sounds..!
Trust me...people dont do this just because they are "lunatics"... when their basic human needs are not being met' how do you expect them to live on!! anyhow..I am not saying Isreal shouldnt defend itself...it has all the right to do so.. but considering their own strength, they should show some compasion atleast for the young ones..!! Quote:
The USA and hopefully Canada will continue to support Israel because it is a liberal democracy afloat in a sea, surrounded by religious lunatics, or power-mad fascist dictators. Israel is the only one deserving of support.........or those nations at peace with Israel.
Ohh yes because of westbank and gaza attack on isreal...it has heavy casualties that need the help of United states?? and support from the rest.. Let me be clear, isreal is not the one who is defending right now. (or when they were fighting, it wasnt the one defending) So if there is anyone that needs support, its should be those "lunatics"!
Quote:
At the time of the invasion, most people believed, with good reason, Saddam had WMDs. Most people, I believe, supported the move on the grounds of that mistaken perception. If you have a source that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.
WHICH MUSLIM COUNTRIES ARE FREE? A list, please. Shouldn't be too difficult.
WHICH MUSLIM COUNTRIES ARE FREE? A list, please. Shouldn't be too difficult.
I cant provide you with an exact source for the first one, because it was done on cnn by one of these group debates where they shared figures for all of this!! It was however concluded that most people werent in favor of going to war in Iraq, but U.S government still went for it.
There are alot of muslim countries which are free or "democratic"! With only a few exceptions like iran or saudi arabia... The only reason they are different is because of their cultural values and the way things were good for them for generations, the people of the country dont want to be imposed by democratic rules!! (period)
Quote:
Terrorism can be defined as an attack centered on civilians with no military objective present.
umm, they would have military objectives if palestinians' had a military! hamas is just non-funded organization that has no hierachy, which just consists of civilians.. there is no point in calling that a military.. you can call them a resistance force..or in Cnn terms "radical islamists" haha
Quote:
Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia are the holy cities........WHERE IS THERE FREEDOM OF THOUGHT RELIGION AND SPEECH IN THE MUSLIM WORLD? WHERE?
A very short list.
umm, I can ask the same thing for vedican city and jerusalam... we all have our religious places where we only want just the believers... !! no religious freedom... but isnt that what we are entitled to!! .. Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia are the holy cities........WHERE IS THERE FREEDOM OF THOUGHT RELIGION AND SPEECH IN THE MUSLIM WORLD? WHERE?
A very short list.
Most developing muslim nations have freedom of thinking, religion and speech!! Dont generalize it okay... and I cannot provide you with a list.. I can only give you a couple of examples..if you want to write an essay or report, I suggest you do the rest of the research yourself!!
Example: indonesia
Religion: Indonesia is a predominantly Muslim country with Muslims accounting for 85% of the population and Christians accounting for 7.5%. The remaining population includes Hindus, Buddhists and animists. Despite the prevalence of the Muslim religion nationally, religion in Indonesia tends to be quite regionally based. It is possible to find areas of Christian majority, and Hinduism is the majority religion in Bali.
Example: India
Religions:
Hindu 80%,Example: Pakistan
Muslim 14%,
Christian 2.4%,
Sikh 2%,
Buddhist 0.7%,
Jains 0.5%,
other 0.4%
Census data indicates that 96% of the population are Muslims, of whom nearly 80% are Sunni Muslims and 19% are Shi'a Muslims. The remainder comprises of Christians, Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Parsis, Ahmadis, Buddhists, and Animists (mainly the Kalasha of Chitral).
I can go on and search for all other 50 whatever muslim countries and share how many other religions the country consists off..and if it didnt have freedom of religion, those other minorities wouldnt be there!! Hope thats clear now.
Quote:
No offense taken here.............
Good.. cause I was worried, I might have gone a bit far..!! just let me know when i cross the limit! No offense taken here.............
ill keep my mouth shut then.
Newbie
Posts: 17
December 27th, 2006, 02:57 PM
you know, you can pick a couple of anti christans in america, and make similar articles saying, how they are repressed by the government and are discriminated!! That doesnt make the article very reliable!! If the country is going through such troubles...the people will rebel by themselves...!! if they arent being heard..then humanright groups will snoop around and make a report!!
In anycase, I suggest if people really want to know about muslim people, then you should ask them first hand, instead of reading the false information provided by newspapers!
Kind regards,
Shia
you know, you can pick a couple of anti christans in america, and make similar articles saying, how they are repressed by the government and are discriminated!! That doesnt make the article very reliable!! If the country is going through such troubles...the people will rebel by themselves...!! if they arent being heard..then humanright groups will snoop around and make a report!!
In anycase, I suggest if people really want to know about muslim people, then you should ask them first hand, instead of reading the false information provided by newspapers!
Kind regards,
Shia
Newbie
Posts: 17
December 27th, 2006, 03:01 PM
last point...just to clear out for members... other than afghanistan, no other muslim country forces people to do religion!! And afghanistan has changed as well after the war with america. So there is no where in the world which you can say, forces islam voilently!
Thanks..
Shia
last point...just to clear out for members... other than afghanistan, no other muslim country forces people to do religion!! And afghanistan has changed as well after the war with america. So there is no where in the world which you can say, forces islam voilently!
Thanks..
Shia
World Police
Posts: 4,488
Videos: 1
Location: toranna
Videos: 1
Location: toranna
December 27th, 2006, 03:18 PM
Quoting Shia
How about Saudi Arabia? It only restricts which religion you can practise I guess..
last point...just to clear out for members... other than afghanistan, no other muslim country forces people to do religion!! And afghanistan has changed as well after the war with america. So there is no where in the world which you can say, forces islam voilently!
Thanks..
Shia
Thanks..
Shia
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,976
December 27th, 2006, 04:27 PM
Now on to Iraq who recently hanged a rape victim, one can only guess the untold hell women and children live in under this Extreme Regime. Again documented by the UN.
Thailand Muslim Extremist are killing Buddist daily, when they aren't burning churches and killing females who "Dare" to attend school. More good deeds in the name of Allah. I could continue pages and pages of the Slaughter, rape, pillage, pedopilia, and the list is endless of the crimes against humanity in the name of Allah. This is Extreme Islam, and it must be stopped.
Quoting Shia
Well Shia are you aware of Sudan and it's policies of forcing Extreme Islam, by gun and sword and rape and slaughtering innocents from Durfar. Sudan is killing innocent Somalians daily in the name of Allah, it appears African Muslims are moderate and peaceful but that isn't good enough for the fanatical leader of Sudan so he sends his army into kill men and male children then they rape the women and female children. This is all documented by the UN.
last point...just to clear out for members... other than afghanistan, no other muslim country forces people to do religion!! And afghanistan has changed as well after the war with america. So there is no where in the world which you can say, forces islam voilently!
Thanks..
Shia
Thanks..
Shia
Now on to Iraq who recently hanged a rape victim, one can only guess the untold hell women and children live in under this Extreme Regime. Again documented by the UN.
Thailand Muslim Extremist are killing Buddist daily, when they aren't burning churches and killing females who "Dare" to attend school. More good deeds in the name of Allah. I could continue pages and pages of the Slaughter, rape, pillage, pedopilia, and the list is endless of the crimes against humanity in the name of Allah. This is Extreme Islam, and it must be stopped.
Newbie
Posts: 17
December 29th, 2006, 01:52 PM
durkadurka: saudi arabia, is like christans vatican city!! Its the origin of islam... just like chirstans dont want muslim people to open mosques in there...we are okay with that! there shouldnt be any problems with the christans as well if we dont want them to open their churches in the islamic origin!
Nevertheless nobody will kill you if you want to "pray" to god in your own house... thats your own right...!! you can perform any ritual or anything that your religion says in your own house... as far as churches go...well the whole world is full of them, its not a necessity for you to go all the way to saudi arabia to go into a church!!
saasielassie: umm I am sorry..but as I mentioned before..I am not totally aware of the things that happen in africa...!! their conflicts are totally different...and I dont want to defend them without actually knowing of the truth.
Iraq hanging a rape victim? aftermath of the iraq vs US conflict...Iraq had worst accidents than those...remember the be-headings!! but thats all cause of the war with United states...ohh my mistake...not United states...but its government!! So dont blame it on the "extreme" religion!
Thailand?? umm dont know what happens there, but I am sure humanrights have made some false-reports to "fung" them up!! lol you can make 1000s of pages...and I can answer you!!
but keep in mind, I am not a philosopher or a historian...so I dont expect me to make anything perfect!!
Thanks for the reply..
With regards,
Shia
durkadurka: saudi arabia, is like christans vatican city!! Its the origin of islam... just like chirstans dont want muslim people to open mosques in there...we are okay with that! there shouldnt be any problems with the christans as well if we dont want them to open their churches in the islamic origin!
Nevertheless nobody will kill you if you want to "pray" to god in your own house... thats your own right...!! you can perform any ritual or anything that your religion says in your own house... as far as churches go...well the whole world is full of them, its not a necessity for you to go all the way to saudi arabia to go into a church!!
saasielassie: umm I am sorry..but as I mentioned before..I am not totally aware of the things that happen in africa...!! their conflicts are totally different...and I dont want to defend them without actually knowing of the truth.
Iraq hanging a rape victim? aftermath of the iraq vs US conflict...Iraq had worst accidents than those...remember the be-headings!! but thats all cause of the war with United states...ohh my mistake...not United states...but its government!! So dont blame it on the "extreme" religion!
Thailand?? umm dont know what happens there, but I am sure humanrights have made some false-reports to "fung" them up!! lol you can make 1000s of pages...and I can answer you!!
but keep in mind, I am not a philosopher or a historian...so I dont expect me to make anything perfect!! Thanks for the reply..
With regards,
Shia
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,361
December 29th, 2006, 02:50 PM
It's interesting that you would cite India and Pakistan as examples, since, of course, Pakistan was a part of India but the Muslim population of India insisted on having their own nation.
Quoting Shia
umm, I can ask the same thing for vedican city and jerusalam... we all have our religious places where we only want just the believers... !! no religious freedom... but isnt that what we are entitled to!! ..
I could be wrong, but I don't think it's required that only Catholics can visit Vatican City. As for Jerusalem, Muslims have always been allowed free access to their holy places when Jews were in control. When M<uslims are in control, Jews are not allowed. The latest intifada bagan when Sharon visited the Temple Mount, so I really don't understand why tou would use Jerusalem as an example.umm, I can ask the same thing for vedican city and jerusalam... we all have our religious places where we only want just the believers... !! no religious freedom... but isnt that what we are entitled to!! ..
Quote:
I can go on and search for all other 50 whatever muslim countries and share how many other religions the country consists off..and if it didnt have freedom of religion, those other minorities wouldnt be there!! Hope thats clear now.
I think if you continue your research you will find that those minorities have shrunk dramatically under Islam. In many cases the minorities were once the majority. You will also find that those minorities live under heavy restrictions and are often persecuted and threatened. Indonesia is a hotbed of anti-Christian violence lately.I can go on and search for all other 50 whatever muslim countries and share how many other religions the country consists off..and if it didnt have freedom of religion, those other minorities wouldnt be there!! Hope thats clear now.
It's interesting that you would cite India and Pakistan as examples, since, of course, Pakistan was a part of India but the Muslim population of India insisted on having their own nation.
Newbie
Posts: 40
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
January 10th, 2007, 10:55 PM
I have an issue about islamic truck drivers.... Have any of you heard about them making holes in their bunks to take a crap? I think that's a little sick when you're a mechanic trying to fix their trucks and you get something drip on your head... I think being a truck driver is a lot of responsibility, but what about when all the muslims passed their truck license test? Think about that..
I have an issue about islamic truck drivers.... Have any of you heard about them making holes in their bunks to take a crap? I think that's a little sick when you're a mechanic trying to fix their trucks and you get something drip on your head... I think being a truck driver is a lot of responsibility, but what about when all the muslims passed their truck license test? Think about that..
Newbie
Posts: 40
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
January 10th, 2007, 11:01 PM
My opinion is why don't the americans just get out of iraq and let them fight among each other... Their soldiers are gettign killed and most Americans don't want the war... It's bush's war I think... I dont blame pakistan for wantign to secure their border after what's been goign on with the chaos in Afghanistan
My opinion is why don't the americans just get out of iraq and let them fight among each other... Their soldiers are gettign killed and most Americans don't want the war... It's bush's war I think... I dont blame pakistan for wantign to secure their border after what's been goign on with the chaos in Afghanistan
Les
Posts: 5,681
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
January 10th, 2007, 11:15 PM
Thought you were serious when you said you were leaving. Glad you weren't.
The objective as they keep explaining to us, is they want a worldwide caliphate. The regular Joe Muslim have been conditioned not to oppose those who grab Islamic authority. So it is left to other people of other religions, politics, etc. to dissuade them.
Quoting Sassylassie
Welcome back, Jugs. I mean, Sass.
Tamarin, damn you make to much common sense. I love it, keep up the great posts.
Thought you were serious when you said you were leaving. Glad you weren't. The objective as they keep explaining to us, is they want a worldwide caliphate. The regular Joe Muslim have been conditioned not to oppose those who grab Islamic authority. So it is left to other people of other religions, politics, etc. to dissuade them.
