Bright Spark
Posts: 476 
Location: Zurich
Location: Zurich
December 28th, 2007, 05:05 PM
The briefest perusal of an MLS sales book will reveal that the houses that cost the most pay as little as half the taxes per unit sales value that the least expensive house owners do. This is called 'regressive tilt', and the poor pay more than the rich on value.
A simple check of your local mill rate structure will reveal that apartment dwellers pay even more than the poor family with the least expensive house, and twice the taxes that the landed gentry pay. This is called 'two tier' and the renters pay the higher rate on value.
If this matter were corrected and damages assessed to pay refunds to the cheated poor, the bill would be so huge thaT IT WOULD BANKRUPT EVERY MUNICIPALITY IN THE COUNTRY.
FACT OR NOT? And a lot of other questions. Did you know that the average elected municipal counsellor does not know how the system works? That the average mayor will plead ignorance to these matters, and the average citizen does not know either. Why does this sound like a conspiracy theory?
The briefest perusal of an MLS sales book will reveal that the houses that cost the most pay as little as half the taxes per unit sales value that the least expensive house owners do. This is called 'regressive tilt', and the poor pay more than the rich on value.
A simple check of your local mill rate structure will reveal that apartment dwellers pay even more than the poor family with the least expensive house, and twice the taxes that the landed gentry pay. This is called 'two tier' and the renters pay the higher rate on value.
If this matter were corrected and damages assessed to pay refunds to the cheated poor, the bill would be so huge thaT IT WOULD BANKRUPT EVERY MUNICIPALITY IN THE COUNTRY.
FACT OR NOT? And a lot of other questions. Did you know that the average elected municipal counsellor does not know how the system works? That the average mayor will plead ignorance to these matters, and the average citizen does not know either. Why does this sound like a conspiracy theory?
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,444 
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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December 28th, 2007, 05:44 PM
That's disturbing Jim, but I know it's true of me, I know virtually nothing about municipal government. So what acctually happened to education eh?
That's disturbing Jim, but I know it's true of me, I know virtually nothing about municipal government. So what acctually happened to education eh?
Time Out
Posts: 415 
Videos: 3
Videos: 3
December 28th, 2007, 06:33 PM
By the way, in which province do you reside? (You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.)
Quoting darkbeaver
You sit on Council of some city/town in this vast expanse of corruption and n'er-do-wells? Hmmm, that explains some of your views.
That's disturbing Jim, but I know it's true of me, I know virtually nothing about municipal government. So what acctually happened to education eh?
By the way, in which province do you reside? (You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.)
Time Out
Posts: 415
Videos: 3
Videos: 3
December 28th, 2007, 06:35 PM
Quoting jimshort19
It sounds as though you're arguing for maintaining the status quo. Am I reading you wrong?
The briefest perusal of an MLS sales book will reveal that the houses that cost the most pay as little as half the taxes per unit sales value that the least expensive house owners do. This is called 'regressive tilt', and the poor pay more than the rich on value.
A simple check of your local mill rate structure will reveal that apartment dwellers pay even more than the poor family with the least expensive house, and twice the taxes that the landed gentry pay. This is called 'two tier' and the renters pay the higher rate on value.
If this matter were corrected and damages assessed to pay refunds to the cheated poor, the bill would be so huge thaT IT WOULD BANKRUPT EVERY MUNICIPALITY IN THE COUNTRY.
FACT OR NOT? And a lot of other questions. Did you know that the average elected municipal counsellor does not know how the system works? That the average mayor will plead ignorance to these matters, and the average citizen does not know either. Why does this sound like a conspiracy theory?
A simple check of your local mill rate structure will reveal that apartment dwellers pay even more than the poor family with the least expensive house, and twice the taxes that the landed gentry pay. This is called 'two tier' and the renters pay the higher rate on value.
If this matter were corrected and damages assessed to pay refunds to the cheated poor, the bill would be so huge thaT IT WOULD BANKRUPT EVERY MUNICIPALITY IN THE COUNTRY.
FACT OR NOT? And a lot of other questions. Did you know that the average elected municipal counsellor does not know how the system works? That the average mayor will plead ignorance to these matters, and the average citizen does not know either. Why does this sound like a conspiracy theory?
Bright Spark
Posts: 476
Location: Zurich
Location: Zurich
December 28th, 2007, 06:35 PM
DB, you a renter or landed if not gentry? Maybe you are being ripped off by the real conspiracy, the Cadillac Socialist Conspiracy. I know it sounds like a rock band, but think City Council, in the chamber, with a blunt instrument. Now think Doomsday Book. Do you know this historic English book?
DB, you a renter or landed if not gentry? Maybe you are being ripped off by the real conspiracy, the Cadillac Socialist Conspiracy. I know it sounds like a rock band, but think City Council, in the chamber, with a blunt instrument. Now think Doomsday Book. Do you know this historic English book?
Bright Spark
Posts: 476
Location: Zurich
Location: Zurich
December 28th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Warrior_Won, I am living in small town Ontario. I have resided also in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.
The status quo involves not just inaccurate and therefor unfair taxation, but massive deception and miscarriage of justice. It is incredible that this condition is so prevelant in Canada and has persisted for years. The answer to many questions are in Dark Beaver's admission that he is not familiar with the matter. In fact, apartment dwellers are under the general illusion that they pay no property tax and that water is free. They are virtually disenfranchised in this regard, have their name left off the tax roll, receive no bill, no receipt, no notice of assessment and no invitation to appeal. The property owner collects the taxes for the city as an undivided portion of the rent. Needless to say, renters are fast and loose with regard to city budget matters and school board budget matters as well, if they bother to be concerned at all. They don't even know that they are paying the bill, and a higher proportion of it than the mayor or the industrialist or the doctor.
Warrior_Won, I am living in small town Ontario. I have resided also in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.
The status quo involves not just inaccurate and therefor unfair taxation, but massive deception and miscarriage of justice. It is incredible that this condition is so prevelant in Canada and has persisted for years. The answer to many questions are in Dark Beaver's admission that he is not familiar with the matter. In fact, apartment dwellers are under the general illusion that they pay no property tax and that water is free. They are virtually disenfranchised in this regard, have their name left off the tax roll, receive no bill, no receipt, no notice of assessment and no invitation to appeal. The property owner collects the taxes for the city as an undivided portion of the rent. Needless to say, renters are fast and loose with regard to city budget matters and school board budget matters as well, if they bother to be concerned at all. They don't even know that they are paying the bill, and a higher proportion of it than the mayor or the industrialist or the doctor.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,444
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
December 28th, 2007, 06:53 PM
Quoting jimshort19
Landed, and I can't say I remember anything about the book. Educate me please and thankyou.
DB, you a renter or landed if not gentry? Maybe you are being ripped off by the real conspiracy, the Cadillac Socialist Conspiracy. I know it sounds like a rock band, but think City Council, in the chamber, with a blunt instrument. Now think Doomsday Book. Do you know this historic English book?
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,444
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
December 28th, 2007, 06:56 PM
Quoting jimshort19
That's interesting, that's a lot of money ain't it?
Warrior_Won, I am living in small town Ontario. I have resided also in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.
The status quo involves not just inaccurate and therefor unfair taxation, but massive deception and miscarriage of justice. It is incredible that this condition is so prevelant in Canada and has persisted for years. The answer to many questions are in Dark Beaver's admission that he is not familiar with the matter. In fact, apartment dwellers are under the general illusion that they pay no property tax and that water is free. They are virtually disenfranchised in this regard, have their name left off the tax roll, receive no bill, no receipt, no notice of assessment and no invitation to appeal. The property owner collects the taxes for the city as an undivided portion of the rent. Needless to say, renters are fast and loose with regard to city budget matters and school board budget matters as well, if they bother to be concerned at all. They don't even know that they are paying the bill, and a higher proportion of it than the mayor or the industrialist or the doctor.
The status quo involves not just inaccurate and therefor unfair taxation, but massive deception and miscarriage of justice. It is incredible that this condition is so prevelant in Canada and has persisted for years. The answer to many questions are in Dark Beaver's admission that he is not familiar with the matter. In fact, apartment dwellers are under the general illusion that they pay no property tax and that water is free. They are virtually disenfranchised in this regard, have their name left off the tax roll, receive no bill, no receipt, no notice of assessment and no invitation to appeal. The property owner collects the taxes for the city as an undivided portion of the rent. Needless to say, renters are fast and loose with regard to city budget matters and school board budget matters as well, if they bother to be concerned at all. They don't even know that they are paying the bill, and a higher proportion of it than the mayor or the industrialist or the doctor.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,444
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
December 28th, 2007, 07:02 PM
Quoting warrior_won
No Warrior I don't sit on any body like that. NS How did you get to that question from what I posted?
You sit on Council of some city/town in this vast expanse of corruption and n'er-do-wells? Hmmm, that explains some of your views.
By the way, in which province do you reside? (You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.)
By the way, in which province do you reside? (You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.)
Bright Spark
Posts: 476
Location: Zurich
Location: Zurich
December 28th, 2007, 07:32 PM
"The Domesday Book was commissioned in December 1085 by William the Conqueror, who invaded England in 1066. The first draft was completed in August 1086 and contained records for 13,418 settlements in the English counties south of the rivers Ribble and Tees (the border with Scotland at the time).
Lots of stuff on net.
Because you own your own home, you enjoy the favourable tax rate ('mil' rate). But if your home is cheap you are probably overassessed relative to expensive homes. The tax assessment value is usually inaccurate, tending to assess cheap homes at or near actual market value and expensive homes at less than market value. This leads to the fewest tax appeals. This tilt I've found everywhere that I have looked in Saskatchewan and Ontario. I bet it's nation wide. I'd like to know, but it is almost impossible to pass the information on anyway. The city's smoke screen involves the city solicitor, amateur tribunals, bewildering assessment manuals, and self-serving legislation that prevents recovery of excess taxes paid. After a strict appeal deadline no taxes previously assessed may be appealed whether they were paid or not. This deadline is renewed every year so a one year recovery of overpayment is the most you'll ever get, and for that you need to pay the appeal fees and hire a lawyer and you still don't have half a chance because the city trains the tribunal and no self-respecting lawyer works with this garbage. Get the picture?
"The Domesday Book was commissioned in December 1085 by William the Conqueror, who invaded England in 1066. The first draft was completed in August 1086 and contained records for 13,418 settlements in the English counties south of the rivers Ribble and Tees (the border with Scotland at the time).
Lots of stuff on net.
Because you own your own home, you enjoy the favourable tax rate ('mil' rate). But if your home is cheap you are probably overassessed relative to expensive homes. The tax assessment value is usually inaccurate, tending to assess cheap homes at or near actual market value and expensive homes at less than market value. This leads to the fewest tax appeals. This tilt I've found everywhere that I have looked in Saskatchewan and Ontario. I bet it's nation wide. I'd like to know, but it is almost impossible to pass the information on anyway. The city's smoke screen involves the city solicitor, amateur tribunals, bewildering assessment manuals, and self-serving legislation that prevents recovery of excess taxes paid. After a strict appeal deadline no taxes previously assessed may be appealed whether they were paid or not. This deadline is renewed every year so a one year recovery of overpayment is the most you'll ever get, and for that you need to pay the appeal fees and hire a lawyer and you still don't have half a chance because the city trains the tribunal and no self-respecting lawyer works with this garbage. Get the picture?
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,444
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
December 28th, 2007, 10:13 PM
Yes I get the picture, I'll check it out for my municipality.
Yes I get the picture, I'll check it out for my municipality.
Time Out
Posts: 415
Videos: 3
Videos: 3
December 28th, 2007, 10:40 PM
Quoting darkbeaver
It was your response to jimshort's post that made me think you may be a Municipal politician or some such.
No Warrior I don't sit on any body like that. NS How did you get to that question from what I posted?
Bright Spark
Posts: 476
Location: Zurich
Location: Zurich
December 29th, 2007, 08:56 AM
Dark Beaver, do make the effort. You can get the mill rates from the municipality, and if you ask an embarrassing question, you'll get an answer of some kind.
But please do this, get a peek at sales and tax assessments of homes in your municipality. The problem is chronic enough to be seen with only a few examples. Find a 'starter' home or 'handy man's' special for $100,000, and a 'luxury' home or 'executive' for $500,000. Samples from the top and the bottom of your municipality that have sold within the last 12 months and within 6 months of each other. This is current and comparable market data.
Devide the tax bill by the sale price. The resulting decimal may be multiplied byn 100 to get a percentage, or 1000 to get the effective (real) mill rate. Notice that the poor man's house is taxed more thaan the wealthy in every example that you pick.
In order to compare apartments with houses, you need an apartment building sale. Divide the sale price and the tax bill by the number of apartments and you'll have the average value and tax bill per apartment. Then compare the effective mill rate on the apartment to the luxury home.
You will have proved the matter. No private enterprise could hold out fairness and equity and accuracy while defrauding the public in this way without the police pressing charges, but the police work for the city. Get the picture? Neither does CMHC or the housing ministry care. This is the largest scam in Canada.
So what are we going to do about it?
Dark Beaver, do make the effort. You can get the mill rates from the municipality, and if you ask an embarrassing question, you'll get an answer of some kind.
But please do this, get a peek at sales and tax assessments of homes in your municipality. The problem is chronic enough to be seen with only a few examples. Find a 'starter' home or 'handy man's' special for $100,000, and a 'luxury' home or 'executive' for $500,000. Samples from the top and the bottom of your municipality that have sold within the last 12 months and within 6 months of each other. This is current and comparable market data.
Devide the tax bill by the sale price. The resulting decimal may be multiplied byn 100 to get a percentage, or 1000 to get the effective (real) mill rate. Notice that the poor man's house is taxed more thaan the wealthy in every example that you pick.
In order to compare apartments with houses, you need an apartment building sale. Divide the sale price and the tax bill by the number of apartments and you'll have the average value and tax bill per apartment. Then compare the effective mill rate on the apartment to the luxury home.
You will have proved the matter. No private enterprise could hold out fairness and equity and accuracy while defrauding the public in this way without the police pressing charges, but the police work for the city. Get the picture? Neither does CMHC or the housing ministry care. This is the largest scam in Canada.
So what are we going to do about it?
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,444
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
December 29th, 2007, 09:14 AM
Quoting jimshort19
Goodmorning Jim.
Dark Beaver, do make the effort. You can get the mill rates from the municipality, and if you ask an embarrassing question, you'll get an answer of some kind.
But please do this, get a peek at sales and tax assessments of homes in your municipality. The problem is chronic enough to be seen with only a few examples. Find a 'starter' home or 'handy man's' special for $100,000, and a 'luxury' home or 'executive' for $500,000. Samples from the top and the bottom of your municipality that have sold within the last 12 months and within 6 months of each other. This is current and comparable market data.
Devide the tax bill by the sale price. The resulting decimal may be multiplied byn 100 to get a percentage, or 1000 to get the effective (real) mill rate. Notice that the poor man's house is taxed more thaan the wealthy in every example that you pick.
In order to compare apartments with houses, you need an apartment building sale. Divide the sale price and the tax bill by the number of apartments and you'll have the average value and tax bill per apartment. Then compare the effective mill rate on the apartment to the luxury home.
You will have proved the matter. No private enterprise could hold out fairness and equity and accuracy while defrauding the public in this way without the police pressing charges, but the police work for the city. Get the picture? Neither does CMHC or the housing ministry care. This is the largest scam in Canada.
So what are we going to do about it?
But please do this, get a peek at sales and tax assessments of homes in your municipality. The problem is chronic enough to be seen with only a few examples. Find a 'starter' home or 'handy man's' special for $100,000, and a 'luxury' home or 'executive' for $500,000. Samples from the top and the bottom of your municipality that have sold within the last 12 months and within 6 months of each other. This is current and comparable market data.
Devide the tax bill by the sale price. The resulting decimal may be multiplied byn 100 to get a percentage, or 1000 to get the effective (real) mill rate. Notice that the poor man's house is taxed more thaan the wealthy in every example that you pick.
In order to compare apartments with houses, you need an apartment building sale. Divide the sale price and the tax bill by the number of apartments and you'll have the average value and tax bill per apartment. Then compare the effective mill rate on the apartment to the luxury home.
You will have proved the matter. No private enterprise could hold out fairness and equity and accuracy while defrauding the public in this way without the police pressing charges, but the police work for the city. Get the picture? Neither does CMHC or the housing ministry care. This is the largest scam in Canada.
So what are we going to do about it?
Bright Spark
Posts: 476
Location: Zurich
Location: Zurich
December 29th, 2007, 09:52 AM
Good morning Sir! As you can see, nobody is interested, so wonder no longer why this situation really exists.
I met a man in Calgary, Dr. Martin Bic. He was a whiz with compters and statistics. He got the municcipal database for Regina and comared thousands of properties, made scores of graphs, wrote lots of arithmeticky gobbledegook, but the absolute degree and prevelance of this phenomenon I found so striking, so astounding, that I could scarcely believe it. Dr. Bic had no more luck telling the story than I have had. Municipal taxation is so murky and boring that nothing can be done. Maybe a class action lawsuit?
The doubletalk of equity pours from the lips of the city solicitor into the ear of the incompetent appeal tribunal like wine to the drunkard, and the case of the modest is lost.
Get this, I've done tax appeals in four cities and two provinces:
Dark Beaver's day before the appeal tribunal, presenting the case of Joe Jamaica, comparing Joe's cheap apartment to that of the Mayor of Toronto:
The city solicitor will look at your evidence and say, "you cannot compare the house in Rosedale with the apartment on Spadina! These properties are in no way comparable. The assessment manual, which must be followed (it's the law) stipulates that like must be compared to like. In fact, all of the apartments are similary and therefore equitably assessed according to regulated, proven and approved proceedures.
You lose.
Good morning Sir! As you can see, nobody is interested, so wonder no longer why this situation really exists.
I met a man in Calgary, Dr. Martin Bic. He was a whiz with compters and statistics. He got the municcipal database for Regina and comared thousands of properties, made scores of graphs, wrote lots of arithmeticky gobbledegook, but the absolute degree and prevelance of this phenomenon I found so striking, so astounding, that I could scarcely believe it. Dr. Bic had no more luck telling the story than I have had. Municipal taxation is so murky and boring that nothing can be done. Maybe a class action lawsuit?
The doubletalk of equity pours from the lips of the city solicitor into the ear of the incompetent appeal tribunal like wine to the drunkard, and the case of the modest is lost.
Get this, I've done tax appeals in four cities and two provinces:
Dark Beaver's day before the appeal tribunal, presenting the case of Joe Jamaica, comparing Joe's cheap apartment to that of the Mayor of Toronto:
The city solicitor will look at your evidence and say, "you cannot compare the house in Rosedale with the apartment on Spadina! These properties are in no way comparable. The assessment manual, which must be followed (it's the law) stipulates that like must be compared to like. In fact, all of the apartments are similary and therefore equitably assessed according to regulated, proven and approved proceedures.
You lose.
Bright Spark
Posts: 476
Location: Zurich
Location: Zurich
December 29th, 2007, 10:27 AM
Kreskin, "How are municipal services rates applied to that equation? Does it cost more to provide municipal water to a more expensive home than a less expensive home?"
Billed services, i.e. water (includes sewer) and hydro, are billed at the same rates. Does that answer?
The water services from the street (main) are installed by the builder and sold with the home. The city authorizes the hookup, but doesn't go so far as to come out and turn on the supply valve, usually sitting flush in the driveway or on the front lawn. The supply valve is not provided by the city, but the whole installation must meet regulatory standards, and those standards are the same for all properties.
The reason for the tax tilt is not expense based.
Kreskin, "How are municipal services rates applied to that equation? Does it cost more to provide municipal water to a more expensive home than a less expensive home?"
Billed services, i.e. water (includes sewer) and hydro, are billed at the same rates. Does that answer?
The water services from the street (main) are installed by the builder and sold with the home. The city authorizes the hookup, but doesn't go so far as to come out and turn on the supply valve, usually sitting flush in the driveway or on the front lawn. The supply valve is not provided by the city, but the whole installation must meet regulatory standards, and those standards are the same for all properties.
The reason for the tax tilt is not expense based.
