Global Warming ‘Greatest Scam in History’


TenPenny
#2221
Quote: Originally Posted by Slim ChanceView Post

Is that really a bad thing?

No, no it's not.

Because the more we disrupt the environment on a global scale, the more stable things become, and the easier our life is.
 
AnnaG
#2222
lol I was looking for a cartoon totally unrelated to this thread when I found this and had to laugh:

 
Slim Chance
#2223
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPennyView Post

No, no it's not.

Because the more we disrupt the environment on a global scale, the more stable things become, and the easier our life is.

It sounds like you're under the impression that nothing has ever changed and won't ever change in the future.

.. I have some ad news for on that one.
 
Tonington
#2224
How does it sound like that??? I think it sounds like tongue in cheek...except that the sarcasm isn't subtle, it's plainly visible.
 
GreenFish66
#2225
Who/what controls the weather/Climate ?


Weather control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)

Environmental Warfare: Climate Modification Schemes (external - login to view)

Can We Control the Weather? (external - login to view)

Everything to some degree..Including us to an ever greater extent ..
 
Cobalt_Kid
#2226
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

The pine beetle population surges and wanes and it isn't that subject to cold. If it was that sensitive to cold it would simply move south, not east. IOW, the pine beetle is not a good indicator of global climate.

The major control on pine beetle is very cold weather. They produce natural anti-freeze and need prolonged periods of cold(minus 30 celcius or more to start killing significant numbers). The last winter that had the necessary conditions was more than two decades ago in 1986, I remember it well because I was working outside in the forest industry, it didn't get over -30 for a month and it stayed under -40 for a week.

The beetle is moving south, Ponderosa are being hit hard in southern BC now.
 
ironsides
#2227
If I'm not mistaken, the Pine Beetle moved north into Canada from the U.S., and are continuing to go N. W. E. as the winters get more mild.
 
Spade
#2228
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

If I'm not mistaken, the Pine Beetle moved north into Canada from the U.S., and are continuing to go N. W. E. as the winters get more mild.

You are correct!
 
Cliffy
#2229
I spoke to one ex-forester who said he quit the service because some foresters would carry live pine beetles in film canesters in their pockets and release them in areas contested by environmentalists so they could use the excuse that the area was bug infested and had to be cut. The practice seems to have got away on them.

They would also haul infested logs through the longest route through the bush to spread them even farther. This resulted in the largest clear cut on the planet (at least in the 90s it was) north of Bowron Lake Park in eastern BC.
 
Cobalt_Kid
#2230
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

I spoke to one ex-forester who said he quit the service because some foresters would carry live pine beetles in film canesters in their pockets and release them in areas contested by environmentalists so they could use the excuse that the area was bug infested and had to be cut. The practice seems to have got away on them.

They would also haul infested logs through the longest route through the bush to spread them even farther. This resulted in the largest clear cut on the planet (at least in the 90s it was) north of Bowron Lake Park in eastern BC.

Human activity certainly added to the problem, but from what I understand it's the lack of cold enough temperatures to reach the beetles while they're hibernating under the bark that has led to the explosion in numbers. BC Parks was slow to allow preventative cutting and slash and burn to control numbers but the outbreaks have been very widespread.

Here in Alberta the outbreak centers have been found as far as 150 miles from the BC border which led some people to think it was being done intentionally by vandals but it turns out the beetles were catching updrafts over the Rockies and spreading that way.
 
AnnaG
#2231
Quote: Originally Posted by Cobalt_KidView Post

The major control on pine beetle is very cold weather. They produce natural anti-freeze and need prolonged periods of cold(minus 30 celcius or more to start killing significant numbers). The last winter that had the necessary conditions was more than two decades ago in 1986, I remember it well because I was working outside in the forest industry, it didn't get over -30 for a month and it stayed under -40 for a week.

The beetle is moving south, Ponderosa are being hit hard in southern BC now.

Like I said before, cold isn't a factor. So I'd bet that the factor remaining is food. And that has little to do with climate change in the short term..
 
Walter
#2232
Good question (external - login to view).
 
ironsides
#2233
What does this say about "Global Warming"?


NEW DELHI – For nearly 30 years, India and Bangladesh have argued over control of a tiny rock island in the Bay of Bengal. Now rising sea levels have resolved the dispute for them: the island's gone.
New Moore Island in the Sunderbans has been completely submerged, said oceanographer Sugata Hazra, a professor at Jadavpur University in Calcutta. Its disappearance has been confirmed by satellite imagery and sea patrols, he said.
"What these two countries could not achieve from years of talking, has been resolved by global warming," said Hazra.

Disputed isle in Bay of Bengal disappears into sea - Yahoo! News (external - login to view)

 
Cobalt_Kid
#2234
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Like I said before, cold isn't a factor. So I'd bet that the factor remaining is food. And that has little to do with climate change in the short term..

Cold has been the historical control, the beetles produce natural glycols(anti-freeze) and hibernate under the pine bark to survive the winter. If you get cold enough weather early/late in the season that can cause significant dieoff, once the beetles are established in their hibernation it takes very cold temperatures for long periods to kill large numbers, conditions we don't see anymore in western Canada due to climate change.
 
AnnaG
#2235
Quote: Originally Posted by Cobalt_KidView Post

Cold has been the historical control, the beetles produce natural glycols(anti-freeze) and hibernate under the pine bark to survive the winter. If you get cold enough weather early/late in the season that can cause significant dieoff, once the beetles are established in their hibernation it takes very cold temperatures for long periods to kill large numbers, conditions we don't see anymore in western Canada due to climate change.

Yup. So like I said, cold isn't a factor. What is left that controls the beetle is either lack of food or fire. The beetle population is moving outward from its normal habitat because of food. It has nothing to do with warm climate. Before warming climates, the beetle survived cold winters by not being where the winters were cold enough to kill them. That means they were farther south.
 
Cobalt_Kid
#2236
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Yup. So like I said, cold isn't a factor. What is left that controls the beetle is either lack of food or fire. The beetle population is moving outward from its normal habitat because of food. It has nothing to do with warm climate. Before warming climates, the beetle survived cold winters by not being where the winters were cold enough to kill them. That means they were farther south.

The beetles were there, they were just there in much more limited numbers, some years saw beetle outbreaks but severe winters would cause massive diebacks. The beetles produce the glycol anit-freeze because they are adapted for a cold climate, their numbers have taken off because the natural control of very cold winters are a thing of the past, even a few days of -40 celcius isn't going to do the trick.
 
AnnaG
#2237
Quote: Originally Posted by Cobalt_KidView Post

The beetles were there, they were just there in much more limited numbers, some years saw beetle outbreaks but severe winters would cause massive diebacks. The beetles produce the glycol anit-freeze because they are adapted for a cold climate, their numbers have taken off because the natural control of very cold winters are a thing of the past, even a few days of -40 celcius isn't going to do the trick.

You've said that before a few times. Look, all I am saying is that the beetle is not a reliable indicator of climate change. There's been population explosions before and the beetle is not limited to northern BC and never has been.
 
Cobalt_Kid
#2238
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

You've said that before a few times. Look, all I am saying is that the beetle is not a reliable indicator of climate change. There's been population explosions before and the beetle is not limited to northern BC and never has been.

The beetle outbreak is a reliable indicator of the local changes in climate in BC in the last several decades due to overall climate change. The massive outbreaks which cover much of the province now would not be occuring if not for recent warmer winters which do not provide the necessary controls on the beetle numbers. There are no predators or other natural factors which control the beetles at this time, like you said their numbers are only going to die back when the pine(food) is all gone.

Certainly there has been population explosions before, but not on the scale we're seeing now since there's been records kept. The natural habitate of BC(and eventually all of the Northwest) is being significantly altered by the uncontrolled spread of the beetle, this isn't a limited outbreak.

And the beetle isn't native to Alberta, it's coming over the Rockies from the west due to the massive numbers of beetles present on BC side of the continental divide.
Last edited by Cobalt_Kid; Mar 25th, 2010 at 12:22 PM..
 
AnnaG
#2239
Quote: Originally Posted by Cobalt_KidView Post

The beetle outbreak is a reliable indicator of the local changes in climate in BC in the last several decades due to overall climate change. The massive outbreaks which cover much of the province now would not be occuring if not for recent warmer winters which do not provide the necessary controls on the beetle numbers. There are no predators or other natural factors which control the beetles at this time, like you said their numbers are only going to die back when the pine(food) is all gone.

Certainly there has been population explosions before, but not on the scale we're seeing now since there's been records kept. The natural habitate of BC(and eventually all of the Northwest) is being significantly altered by the uncontrolled spread of the beetle, this isn't a limited outbreak.

And the beetle isn't native to Alberta, it's coming over the Rockies from the west due to the massive numbers of beetles present on BC side of the continental divide.

Can you show a corelation between climate and beetle population?
 
Cobalt_Kid
#2240
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Can you show a corelation between climate and beetle population?

Like I said, severe prolonged cold weather is the major control on beetle populations. There's a direct link between the massive growth in beetle population, their extent and the milder winters of the last couple of decades.

Growing up in Prince George and Williams Lake BC and having several foresters in my family I can assure you the beetles have been a concern for years and what has happened hasn't come as a surprise to me or many, I've been hearing about this growing crisis since the early 1980s.
 
Extrafire
#2241
Quote: Originally Posted by Cobalt_KidView Post

The major control on pine beetle is very cold weather. They produce natural anti-freeze and need prolonged periods of cold(minus 30 celcius or more to start killing significant numbers). The last winter that had the necessary conditions was more than two decades ago in 1986, I remember it well because I was working outside in the forest industry, it didn't get over -30 for a month and it stayed under -40 for a week.

The beetle is moving south, Ponderosa are being hit hard in southern BC now.

This is nonsense. The major control on pine beetle is food supply. When their food is abundant and available they multiply accordingly. The existance of pine trees is the abundant part, but that isn't enough in itself, there also has to be a considerable amount of weak trees in order to get populations up to critical mass in order to get the kind of infestation we're currently experiencing. The older the trees, the more vulnerable. That's the available part. 100 years ago we only had 1/4 the number of mature pine trees as now. We've been fighting them off for 40 years with declining success as outbreaks became more and more frequent as the years progressed and the trees became weaker. When the current outbreak started in Tweedsmuir Park, the (environmentalist supported) NDP governemnt refused to let any action be taken against them, no matter how much the forest companies, loggers, BC Forest Service pleaded and begged and warned of what could (and did) happen if left unchecked.

If cold was the main control on beetles, then they would have long ago destroyed the pine stands in the southern parts of the province where it never gets that cold. Pine beetles are found wherever pine trees are found, whether in the south or north, and scientists tell us that this has been the case for 60 million years.

I also recall the cold conditions of the winter of 1985-86. The killing cold snap occured in October when temperatures dropped to -36 before the beetles had time to form their anti-freeze and before enough snow had accumulated to insulate them (they retreat to the base of the tree to overwinter). That cold snap killed off the spruce bark beetles that were infesting the forests east of Prince George but the pine beetles emerged relatively unscathed. We were still fighting them off the next year.
 
Extrafire
#2242
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

If I'm not mistaken, the Pine Beetle moved north into Canada from the U.S., and are continuing to go N. W. E. as the winters get more mild.

You are mistaken. They've always been here.
 
Extrafire
#2243
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

I spoke to one ex-forester who said he quit the service because some foresters would carry live pine beetles in film canesters in their pockets and release them in areas contested by environmentalists so they could use the excuse that the area was bug infested and had to be cut. The practice seems to have got away on them.

They would also haul infested logs through the longest route through the bush to spread them even farther. This resulted in the largest clear cut on the planet (at least in the 90s it was) north of Bowron Lake Park in eastern BC.

More nonsense! Where do you guys get this stuff? The amount of beetles in a film canister wouldn't be enough to kill one tree, and besides which, they only live outside the bark for a very short period of time when they're flying to find new trees to lay their eggs in. Release them at any other time and they'd just die. In fact, take them out of a tree before their time and they'd die.

Haul logs on the longest route to infect other trees? Who invents that nonsense? As for the Bowron infestation, that was started in an area of spruce blowdown (a large area of trees knocked over by a strong wind storm) in Bowron Lakes Park, far, far away from any logging road. The trees, lying down with some of their roots still in the ground, just barely alive, were very weak and vulnerable to beetle attack. The beetles reached critical mass and spread out. The Bowron clearcut (nowhere near the largest clearcut on the planet, let alone BC) was the result of logging to utilize the dead and dying trees before they deteriorated and to (hopefully) stop the spread of the spruce bark beetle by removing infested trees.
Last edited by Extrafire; Mar 27th, 2010 at 12:42 AM..
 
Extrafire
#2244
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

[...]

Before warming climates, the beetle survived cold winters by not being where the winters were cold enough to kill them. That means they were farther south.

Nope. The beetles have always been in the north. In fact, large infestations have occured much more often in the northern part of the province than the south. They survived cold winters by moving to the base of the tree for the winter where the snow would protect them from severe cold, and by developing their anti-freeze. They survived the -46C (50 below) of 1991 just fine.
 
Extrafire
#2245
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

There's a shocker. Leave it to someone who will analyze the results, and not publish under the rigors of review. Anyways, what I cited is direct evidence which refutes your claims. If you don't wish to examine it for yourself, then there's not much more to discuss..

What you cited is studies whose conclusions conflict with reality. If that's the best you can do, then yes indeed, there's not much more to discuss.

Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

Well if the warming the septics are expecting isn't physically based on reality, we shouldn't expect their drivel to materialize.

You seem a bit confused. It isn't the skeptics that are expecting warming, it's the alarmists who are pushing the panic button over miniscule warming that contradicts the hypothesis that human emissions are responsible for dangerous global warming.

Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

As to the rest, the sceptics are wrong. If they thought the warming should occur exponentially, then they have a great deal of learning to accomplish. Hint: forcing for carbon dioxide is logarithmic under the current atmospheric dynamics. Funny how they ignore that when it suits their purposes ehh?

Yes, logarithmically as opposed to liniarly. Very similar to exponentially. They don't ignore that at all. Rather it's the alarmists who do.

Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

This hypothesis you refer to, can you show where this expectation is derived from, or is that just your strawman? Because the physics involved permit no such prediction, providing no grounds for such a hypothesis.

Entirely predictable...

Hey, don't ask me, it's the alarmists who came up with it.
 
Extrafire
#2246
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

Oh yes Extra, I almost forgot. Please provide some scholarly material for the three times the surface warming in the tropics figure. Also, please explain how this is different than what would be expected if it were not greenhouse gases, say increased solar.

I will actually read any scholarly material you present. I don't require bloggers to do my critical thinking for me.

What, you're disputing that if CO2 was causing the warming it would heat up the troposphere above the tropics faster? I recall you once tried to dispute the Medieval Climate Optimum as a defense for your position.

Pathetic, as usual.
 
Extrafire
#2247
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

No warming?

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies (external - login to view)
I am sure that studies from the Yukon, NWT, Nunavut, and Russia would concur.

Evidence for warming of Atlantic water in the Southern Canadian Basin of the Arctic Ocean: Results from the Larsen‐93 Expedition (external - login to view)
I am sure this section of the Atlantic isn't the only one that has warmed.

I was right ....
"OS51B-1045" in fm06 (external - login to view)

I'm wondering what your point is.
 
Extrafire
#2248
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

We are spending to much time on is this global warming or not, fact it sea water temperatures are rising. What can or are we going to do if all these predictions of doom to pan out. and if so how to survive it. For example, how many homes in the northern part of North America, Europe,and Asia are now equipped with air conditioners. If not, it is something to start thinking about.What are we going to do about water distribution? Avoiding the conflicts that will occur in Europe and Asia over food and water. There are a lot of things we can do to insure survival, and not many if any to prevent global change from happening.

2005 was a bad year globally for heat waves. Just something to think about.

I think you should look at history. In times past, warm periods (considerably warmer than now) were times of abundance and advancement for the human race. Cold periods were times of starvation, pestilance, retraction and population decline of up to 40%. We should be looking forward with anticipation to warming, with dread to cooling.
 
Extrafire
#2249
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Actually, if it were me, I'd rather just get more expert opinion and more data and recheck everything. If the scientists on one side of an argument fudge, that doesn't make the other side honest.

Also works in the reverse mode when doubters attack the characters of the climate scientists.

And all scientists should be second-guessed.

No, it should trigger distrust of all scientists.

etc

etc

etc

Basically if one side screws up, it doesn't mean the other side is better.

I don't disagree. But I will maintain that when one side has that many black marks, an investigation is warranted at the least.

(PS - Nice forsythia in your avatar. Spring is here!)
 
Extrafire
#2250
deleted screwed up post
 
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