Seeking Man's Favor: The Root of Religious Unbelief!

[pfrattali]

"How can you believe, which receive honor one of another?" John 5:44

The whole course of our lives will be upset by failure to put God where He belongs. We exalt ourselves instead of God and the curse follows! Consider the very disturbing question that Jesus asked of men when He was on earth: "How can ye believe, which receive honor of one another, and seek not the honor that comes from God alone?" If I understand this correctly, Christ taught here the alarming doctrine that the desire for honor among men made belief impossible! Is this sin at the root of religious unbelief?
Could it be that those "intellectual difficulties" which men blame for their inability to believe are but smoke screens to conceal the real cause that lies behind them? Was it this greedy desire for honor from man that made men into Pharisees and Pharisees into Deicides?
Is this the secret back of religious self-righteousness and empty worship? I believe it may be.
Men and women who will make the honest once-for-all decision to exalt and honor God and His Christ over all are precious to God above all treasures of earth or sea, for He knows that His honor is safe in such consecrated hands!

By A. W. Tozer

 

[Cliffy]

And then again, it could be that the god of the bible is just unbelievable to discriminating minds. You have a jealous, insecure, vengeful, psychopathic god who will cause you to burn for all eternity if you don't kiss his almighty feet every waking minute of your pathetic life. Sounds far too human and petty a tyrant to me and most others who reject the existence of such a god. I think Mr Tozer is a little simplistic in the head.

 

[TenPenny]

Every Good Boy Deserves Favour.

 

[AndyF]

Christ taught here the alarming doctrine that the desire for honor among men made belief impossible! Is this sin at the root of religious unbelief?

One prime evidence this is true can be found in the common attitude of using the dishonourable conduct of some ministers has an excuse for the avoidance of the Church altogeather.

It affects belief because it rejects Christ which is the Church, and rejects Peter has Christ's appointed corner stone of his foundational Church on the grounds of Peter's imperfection. The attitude constructs a self imposed barrier to their ever attaining the necessary graces that will allow them to move on in their spiritual lives.

Of course the real reason is that this generation sees Church attendance and observances as one more intrusion into the "quality time" with the family, not realizing that God wishes them to live their lives with Him has the focal point, and not one who can be called on only when it is convenient. God has become one more gadget of the times to be used when needed then put aside for next time.

They seek signs of sanction for their conduct through the empirical. If there isn't a catastrophe evident, then they must be on the right track is the mindset.

I see this has very sad. The children do not know the predicament they will eventually find themselves, nor do they benefit now or learn to cultivate a relationship with God. As the days go by they miss the graces and blessings they can receive from the Church. Then one day they will find themselves in a crises that this time the empirical cannot solve, and that will call on them to tap into that reservoir of spiritual hope and trust in the relationship they cultivated all their days and be able to take comfort in that other plain of existence, their Faith.

But self centered parents they had, teachers they didn't, and God finds their little ones lost on His doorstep, and the teachers who were assigned the task are nowhere to be found.

This just one effect of the compounding effect of placing the honor/dishonor of man over honor of God.

Andy

 

[Mowich]

Andy, you are more than free to believe whatever you wish however, what you have just posted in utter and complete nonsense. The goodness in man is not a reflection of faith but a reflection of good parenting. Many honorable people had little to do with organized religion or god.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Of course the real reason is that this generation sees Church attendance and observances as one more intrusion...

The real reason, at least in my case, is that the Church's claims about itself and the nature of things have no credibility. If you know how to think critically, and understand the nature of evidence, and the lamentably many ways the human mind deludes itself into believing things it wants to be true, you'll have an apostasy too. Everyone's a skeptic about every religion but their own. When you truly understand why you reject all those others as false, you'll perceive that yours is also false for the same reasons. There is no legitimate argument you can make against them that doesn't equally apply to yours.

 

[Cliffy]

Andy, you are more than free to believe whatever you wish however, what you have just posted in utter and complete nonsense. The goodness in man is not a reflection of faith but a reflection of good parenting. Many honorable people had little to do with organized religion or god.

Yes, the catholic church has been a stalwart of moral integrity throughout its history, now hasn't it? After 2000 years of corruption and crime, it suddenly becomes a pillar of honesty and goodness. I think not. But Andy and pfflf... whatever his/her name is, are entitled to believe whatever nonsense they choose.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

But Andy and pfflf... whatever his/her name is, are entitled to believe whatever nonsense they choose.

Yep, right up until they decide they're entitled to enforce it on those who disagree with them. If they have the secular power to do so, they always do, because of course they're absolutely right, they have divine backing. Power corrupts alright, but power corrupts religion uniquely and horribly.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

"How can you believe, which receive honor one of another?" John 5:44

The whole course of our lives will be upset by failure to put God where He belongs. We exalt ourselves instead of God and the curse follows! Consider the very disturbing question that Jesus asked of men when He was on earth: "How can ye believe, which receive honor of one another, and seek not the honor that comes from God alone?" If I understand this correctly, Christ taught here the alarming doctrine that the desire for honor among men made belief impossible! Is this sin at the root of religious unbelief?
Could it be that those "intellectual difficulties" which men blame for their inability to believe are but smoke screens to conceal the real cause that lies behind them? Was it this greedy desire for honor from man that made men into Pharisees and Pharisees into Deicides?
Re-read the text' Here's what you quoted' ""How can ye believe, which receive honor of one another, and seek not the honor that comes from God alone?" If I understand this correctly, Christ taught here the alarming doctrine that the desire for honor among men made belief impossible! '


All this quote means, is that if ALL YOU DO is look for recognition and honour from other people, then no, you won't receive the kingdom of heaven.
In other words, it's ok to like being recognised for what you do, but to be a good Christian you need to actually do things not for the desire to be recognised but because it is the right thing to do. theirs nothing wrong with 'appreciating appreciation', but when the only reason you do goo works is to get recognition for it? It becomes wrong.
You do go things because it's the right thing to do. If people appreciate it and comment on it, that's ok and a nice thing, but it's not the raison d'etre. Being good doesn't mean you have to wear a hair shirt and flagelate yourself.

 

[Cliffy]

Yep, right up until they decide they're entitled to enforce it on those who disagree with them. If they have the secular power to do so, they always do, because of course they're absolutely right, they have divine backing. Power corrupts alright, but power corrupts religion uniquely and horribly.

Yes, but if I had the power I might consider banning religion.;-)

 

[AnnaG]

Why should we exalt gods? Why should we even pay any attention to them? They pay no attention to us.
If indeed these gods made everything,, then they designed everything. If they did all that they are lousy at it and it is no wonder they did it and then dropped the project like a hot potato and left it to deal with itself.
If they didn't design and build everything and are actually doing things, they're even worse managers than they may be designers and builders.

 

[AndyF]

Dexter Sinister:

The Nature of Evidence

The problem lies in that there are spiritual influences in our reality as well, and we are limited in the tools we have to understand. We can use our intellect and make use of natural reasoning and our limited natural senses to make "sense" of it all, itself limited by the empirical. So we have limits here. Having learned all there is to learn, further advancement can only come through mystical means.

How can we describe how God acts on us in this way.? I see it has a token/merit system of sorts. We strive to use our senses in a proper way so that we can receive the tokens of spiritual knowledge, or evidence, which is a grace. We conform, or give up in trust; we relinquish hold on the things of this world to be graced. We say, "OK, I give up I'll do more for you using the limitations I have here and in hope and trust I can warrant spiritual enlightenment". Augustine says we believe first, then we understand(tokens).

St. John of the Cross metaphors the longing of God to a log placed in a fire. In all it's "senses" it resists change fighting, but the fire with it's burning desire will have none of it has it wishes to become one with the log, as it knows it to be it's natural home of it's inheritance. The fire burns away and slowly it gives up weakening by receiving the tokens of loving heat in it's natural sense, and a change comes about. The log still showing a vestige of it's former self, is now infused with the fire of love and understanding, and it now emanates a dual love of it's parent fire and itself, not caring of it's restricted state of sense, but now........ fully understanding.

The graces we strive for overwhelm us even if we are not in the spiritual state. It calls for us to submit.

Practically, I see this all makes sense when we consider the preparation for our reception. What Divine kingdom would wish to have residents that cannot first trust or believe, or those who expect the King to always take the initiative, especially when they are created servants.? They would bring to it distrust in an environment of trust, disbelief in an environment of belief and all the trappings of a finite world to the infinite.

Everyone's a skeptic about every religion but their own.

That would depend on what is a norm. If having many religions is the norm then I can see the confusion. But one day God sent his Son to establish a true religion. From this point on only one religion is legit. If there is one that is legit then the others cannot be. If one were seeking a religion he would be seeking one established by God, one that is generational Apostolic, one that has the power to actually save, teach and administer sacred sacraments bestowed by God.

Sorry for the length.

Andy

 

[Cliffy]

It is only your belief that god created the catholic church, inspired the bible and that Jesus was the son of god. You believe this without evidence and yet you put down anybody who doesn't fall for this nonsense. Any organization involving humans, run by humans and lorded over by humans is corrupted within minutes of their involvement and the catholic church has had 2000 years of human corruption.

If god is an all wise and knowing god it would not trust its truth to a bunch of men. If you want the truth, go to the source, not to self proclaimed intermediaries. And that is all the church is - self proclaimed. They are not to be trusted with your soiled toilet paper let alone your soul.

 

[AnnaG]

"How can you believe, which receive honor one of another?" John 5:44

Have you got an English translation for that?

The whole course of our lives will be upset by failure to put God where He belongs. We exalt ourselves instead of God and the curse follows!

If gods exist and aren't creations of men, why would we exalt things that ignore us and even kill us?

Consider the very disturbing question that Jesus asked of men when He was on earth: "How can ye believe, which receive honor of one another, and seek not the honor that comes from God alone?"

I'm not up on Biblese, can you do that in English?

If I understand this correctly, Christ taught here the alarming doctrine that the desire for honor among men made belief impossible! Is this sin at the root of religious unbelief?

I suppose if all the people he (if he existed at all) ever met were narcissists, he could leap to that assumption. The thing is not all people are narcissists. In case you haven't noticed, there are some awfully wonderful people around that believe in different gods, no gods at all, and people like me who believe gods are irrelevant. Being good people does not hinge on being a faithful worshipper of something which may not even exist.

Could it be that those "intellectual difficulties" which men blame for their inability to believe are but smoke screens to conceal the real cause that lies behind them? Was it this greedy desire for honor from man that made men into Pharisees and Pharisees into Deicides?

Possibly. So if some are like that does that mean everyone should get rid of their honor? How can one not follow the goodness inate in us if we are not honorable? That is another example of this silly religion's insistence that humans not be human. I guess we are supposed to be sheep; non-thinking, emotionless followers just eating, sleeping, and spewing kids. (ooops the kid thing is a goat deal. I meant lambs). Sorry, but I won't graze around being some predator's idea of dinner.

Is this the secret back of religious self-righteousness and empty worship? I believe it may be.

For some people, undoubtedly. But not all unbelievers are the same.

Men and women who will make the honest once-for-all decision to exalt and honor God and His Christ over all are precious to God above all treasures of earth or sea, for He knows that His honor is safe in such consecrated hands!

By A. W. Tozer

And what if those that honor these gods but dishonor other humans? Wouldn't there be even more crime than before? I think a person's honor keeps them from doing things against other people. Take that honor away from them and you take away the inhibition to do nasty things to other people.

Why in the hell would anything design us with all these human attributres if we weren't supposed to use them? Right, there is no sense in it.

 

[AnnaG]

And then again, it could be that the god of the bible is just unbelievable to discriminating minds. You have a jealous, insecure, vengeful, psychopathic god who will cause you to burn for all eternity if you don't kiss his almighty feet every waking minute of your pathetic life. Sounds far too human and petty a tyrant to me and most others who reject the existence of such a god. I think Mr Tozer is a little simplistic in the head.

That, too. Apparently this god of the Christians has never led by example. It's do as I say, not as I do with this god. The penultimate hypocrite.

 

[AnnaG]

Every Good Boy Deserves Favour.

How very musical of you.

 

[AnnaG]

One prime evidence this is true can be found in the common attitude of using the dishonourable conduct of some ministers has an excuse for the avoidance of the Church altogeather.

It affects belief because it rejects Christ which is the Church, and rejects Peter has Christ's appointed corner stone of his foundational Church on the grounds of Peter's imperfection. The attitude constructs a self imposed barrier to their ever attaining the necessary graces that will allow them to move on in their spiritual lives.

Of course the real reason is that this generation sees Church attendance and observances as one more intrusion into the "quality time" with the family, not realizing that God wishes them to live their lives with Him has the focal point, and not one who can be called on only when it is convenient. God has become one more gadget of the times to be used when needed then put aside for next time.

They seek signs of sanction for their conduct through the empirical. If there isn't a catastrophe evident, then they must be on the right track is the mindset.

I see this has very sad. The children do not know the predicament they will eventually find themselves, nor do they benefit now or learn to cultivate a relationship with God. As the days go by they miss the graces and blessings they can receive from the Church. Then one day they will find themselves in a crises that this time the empirical cannot solve, and that will call on them to tap into that reservoir of spiritual hope and trust in the relationship they cultivated all their days and be able to take comfort in that other plain of existence, their Faith.

But self centered parents they had, teachers they didn't, and God finds their little ones lost on His doorstep, and the teachers who were assigned the task are nowhere to be found.

This just one effect of the compounding effect of placing the honor/dishonor of man over honor of God.

Andy

Yeah. The vanity of this god is simply overwhelmingly astounding. And so the faithful followers follow suit (but perhaps not to the same degree).

 

[AnnaG]

All this quote means, is that if ALL YOU DO is look for recognition and honour from other people, then no, you won't receive the kingdom of heaven.
In other words, it's ok to like being recognised for what you do, but to be a good Christian you need to actually do things not for the desire to be recognised but because it is the right thing to do. theirs nothing wrong with 'appreciating appreciation', but when the only reason you do goo works is to get recognition for it? It becomes wrong.
You do go things because it's the right thing to do. If people appreciate it and comment on it, that's ok and a nice thing, but it's not the raison d'etre. Being good doesn't mean you have to wear a hair shirt and flagelate yourself.

Really good point, DHW.

 

[Cliffy]

That, too. Apparently this god of the Christians has never led by example. It's do as I say, not as I do with this god. The penultimate hypocrite.

One must wonder why people would want to believe in this petty tyrant. Are they all that masochistic?

 

[MHz]

That, too. Apparently this god of the Christians has never led by example. It's do as I say, not as I do with this god. The penultimate hypocrite.

Did God eat from the tree of knowledge? No so He was leading by example.

Really good point, DHW.

Gee why didn't God think of that, oh wait, He did.

Jas:2:14:
What doth it profit,
my brethren,
though a man say he hath faith,
and have not works?
can faith save him?
Jas:2:15:
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
Jas:2:16:
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Jas:2:17:
Even so faith,
if it hath not works,
is dead, being alone.
Jas:2:18:
Yea,
a man may say,
Thou hast faith,
and I have works:
shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.