Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905 
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
September 6th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Christianity, in it's view believes that Israel will usher in Armageddon.
That the worlds powers will be hooked like a fish and drawn into battle with Israel.
If our salvation is of the Jews :
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
If then the Jewish folk are to be instrumental in bringing salvation to the ends of the earth, why then would it have a final death wish upon them from the rest of the world?
It seems to me rather to instead reach out to the world in peace and humility.
Does the year 2029 ring a bell with anyone?
What are your thoughts.
If you don't believe in God, your thoughts are still welcomed.
Peace>>>AJ
Christianity, in it's view believes that Israel will usher in Armageddon.
That the worlds powers will be hooked like a fish and drawn into battle with Israel.
If our salvation is of the Jews :
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
If then the Jewish folk are to be instrumental in bringing salvation to the ends of the earth, why then would it have a final death wish upon them from the rest of the world?
It seems to me rather to instead reach out to the world in peace and humility.
Does the year 2029 ring a bell with anyone?
What are your thoughts.
If you don't believe in God, your thoughts are still welcomed.
Peace>>>AJ
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,358 
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
September 6th, 2007, 09:13 PM
The Zionist state of Israel does not descend from the Bible's Judean tribes. Ashkenazim Jews are not of the children of Abraham but are Gentiles so that it cannot be said that these people are destined to bring salvation to humanity.
See Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe.
The Zionist state of Israel does not descend from the Bible's Judean tribes. Ashkenazim Jews are not of the children of Abraham but are Gentiles so that it cannot be said that these people are destined to bring salvation to humanity.
See Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe.
Knows No Bounds
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September 6th, 2007, 09:41 PM
No, Israel is not the ticking time clock for world destruction. Unless of course fundamentalist Christians take power in enough powerful nations and turn it into a self-fulfilling prophecy, believing they're doing god's work. That's one of the real dangers of such evidence-free beliefs: if you believe it's divinely ordained, you aren't going to do anything to prevent it, and may in fact try to hurry it along. It's also one of the more alarming things about Bush and Blair's adventuring in Iraq; they're both very earnest Christians who believe god guides them directly. That's why Bush remains so extraordinarily upbeat and optimistic in the face of all the bad news out of Iraq and sinking out of sight in the polls at home: he believes his role in this was directly handed to him by god, he cannot possibly be wrong. And if you believe stuff like that about yourself, with no test in reality, you won't take any opposition seriously, and may in fact go to considerable lengths to repress it (sound familiar?) because your opponents can't possibly be right, they must be agents of the other side. And the people on the other side also believe they're absolutely right, for essentially the same reasons: god told them to do it, and their opponents must therefore be agents of the devil. They're not kidding when they label the U.S. as The Great Satan.
If you'd put this in International Politics rather than Christian Discussion I'd have answered a good deal differently, but you're clearly coming at this from a religious perspective. That, I believe, as I've explained above, is simply the wrong way to try to understand geopolitics, and is potentially very destructive, essentially because it's too limited a view and does not actually give you any real understanding of it.
Quoting look3467
Yes, that's the year that an asteroid was supposed to strike the earth on the 13th of April, a dreaded Friday the 13th. New calculations now show that it won't.
Does the year 2029 ring a bell with anyone?
No, Israel is not the ticking time clock for world destruction. Unless of course fundamentalist Christians take power in enough powerful nations and turn it into a self-fulfilling prophecy, believing they're doing god's work. That's one of the real dangers of such evidence-free beliefs: if you believe it's divinely ordained, you aren't going to do anything to prevent it, and may in fact try to hurry it along. It's also one of the more alarming things about Bush and Blair's adventuring in Iraq; they're both very earnest Christians who believe god guides them directly. That's why Bush remains so extraordinarily upbeat and optimistic in the face of all the bad news out of Iraq and sinking out of sight in the polls at home: he believes his role in this was directly handed to him by god, he cannot possibly be wrong. And if you believe stuff like that about yourself, with no test in reality, you won't take any opposition seriously, and may in fact go to considerable lengths to repress it (sound familiar?) because your opponents can't possibly be right, they must be agents of the other side. And the people on the other side also believe they're absolutely right, for essentially the same reasons: god told them to do it, and their opponents must therefore be agents of the devil. They're not kidding when they label the U.S. as The Great Satan.
If you'd put this in International Politics rather than Christian Discussion I'd have answered a good deal differently, but you're clearly coming at this from a religious perspective. That, I believe, as I've explained above, is simply the wrong way to try to understand geopolitics, and is potentially very destructive, essentially because it's too limited a view and does not actually give you any real understanding of it.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
September 6th, 2007, 10:20 PM
China
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Considering that Jesus is still alive when that statement was made, was an indication that He was not privy to that information, due to the fact that the cross would be waiting for Him.
He was given to know only what the Father revealed to him.
Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
Jesus was to suffer without knowing but only trusting in the Father, so the answer is appropriate in that case.
As time got closer to the day of the cross, enough revelation was given Him so as to keep Him on course.
This verse indicates that: Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
From what I have read of your postings, china, though you may not understand things in the bible, you have similar knowledge as I do.
God is not one way to any one individual, but is one way to all individuals.
As for time telling, I am not setting dates.
I am just going by what has already been written as a possible date to look for.
I would have to explain it on another thread.
What I was interested is in seeing what other views are there.
Peace>>>AJ
China
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Considering that Jesus is still alive when that statement was made, was an indication that He was not privy to that information, due to the fact that the cross would be waiting for Him.
He was given to know only what the Father revealed to him.
Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
Jesus was to suffer without knowing but only trusting in the Father, so the answer is appropriate in that case.
As time got closer to the day of the cross, enough revelation was given Him so as to keep Him on course.
This verse indicates that: Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Quote:
I wholeheartedly believe in the whole of the bible, for in there I find life. __you believe the bible or you don't....personally I don't understand the Bible.>>>china
From what I have read of your postings, china, though you may not understand things in the bible, you have similar knowledge as I do.
God is not one way to any one individual, but is one way to all individuals.
As for time telling, I am not setting dates.
I am just going by what has already been written as a possible date to look for.
I would have to explain it on another thread.
What I was interested is in seeing what other views are there.
Peace>>>AJ
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
September 6th, 2007, 10:44 PM
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Jesus then is a descendant of Abraham after Issac and Jacob, now Israel, as detailed in the book of mattew chapter 1.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
The nation of Israel is representative of the different tribes. They are looked at as a whole, not as individual tribes.
Only those tribes who were instrumental in delivering Jesus to the cross are, but are mixed within the whole.
In my opinion.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting gopher
The tribe of Judah is where the name Jews come from, thus the 12 tribes are lump in as Jews. They are descendants of the 12 sons of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel.
The Zionist state of Israel does not descend from the Bible's Judean tribes. Ashkenazim Jews are not of the children of Abraham but are Gentiles so that it cannot be said that these people are destined to bring salvation to humanity.
See Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe.
See Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Jesus then is a descendant of Abraham after Issac and Jacob, now Israel, as detailed in the book of mattew chapter 1.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
The nation of Israel is representative of the different tribes. They are looked at as a whole, not as individual tribes.
Only those tribes who were instrumental in delivering Jesus to the cross are, but are mixed within the whole.
In my opinion.
Peace>>>AJ
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
September 6th, 2007, 11:25 PM
And another thing why there, why not Canada, Mexico or even Cuba?
I mean I have my conclusions on it but later on.
If it’s divinely ordained as believe by Christians, then events happen beyond their control. But if not, then I agree with you, we could control some events, but not all.
If it’s true, then time will tell, if not, then you have a point.
I happen to believe in the source of his steadfastness and why.
I happen to believe that Bush does take his opponents seriously and seeks to prevent terrorism whatever face it happens to have.
Evil calling another evil? Very understandable in light of what is misunderstood.
In the name of God, mankind uses it for its own lusts, thus become evil intent.
I would say, that a Muslim or any other religious belief not tainted by these evil intended individual groups, are as loving and kind as you or I.
So happens, that we all have not learned to get along together yet.
If you'd put this in International Politics rather than Christian Discussion I'd have answered a good deal differently, but you're clearly coming at this from a religious perspective. That, I believe, as I've explained above, is simply the wrong way to try to understand geopolitics, and is potentially very destructive, essentially because it's too limited a view and does not actually give you any real understanding of it.>>>Dexter
I understand what you are saying, but the whole scenario is religiously oriented. Religious friction; of the kind that wars make.
Peace>>>AJ
Quote:
Can that piece of real-estate be so important that a world catastrophe maybe in order? I mean, look at the size of it. No, Israel is not the ticking time clock for world destruction. Unless of course fundamentalist Christians take power in enough powerful nations and turn it into a self-fulfilling prophecy, believing they're doing god's work.>>>Dexter
And another thing why there, why not Canada, Mexico or even Cuba?
I mean I have my conclusions on it but later on.
Quote:
That's one of the real dangers of such evidence-free beliefs: if you believe it's divinely ordained, you aren't going to do anything to prevent it, and may in fact try to hurry it along.>>>Dexter
If it’s divinely ordained as believe by Christians, then events happen beyond their control. But if not, then I agree with you, we could control some events, but not all.
Quote:
It's also one of the more alarming things about Bush and Blair's adventuring in Iraq; they're both very earnest Christians who believe god guides them directly.>>>Dexter
If it’s true, then time will tell, if not, then you have a point.
Quote:
That's why Bush remains so extraordinarily upbeat and optimistic in the face of all the bad news out of Iraq and sinking out of sight in the polls at home: he believes his role in this was directly handed to him by god, he cannot possibly be wrong.>>>Dexter
I happen to believe in the source of his steadfastness and why.
Quote:
And if you believe stuff like that about yourself, with no test in reality, you won't take any opposition seriously, and may in fact go to considerable lengths to repress it (sound familiar?) because your opponents can't possibly be right, they must be agents of the other side. And the people on the other side also believe they're absolutely right, for essentially the same reasons: god told them to do it, and their opponents must therefore be agents of the devil.>>>Dexter
I happen to believe that Bush does take his opponents seriously and seeks to prevent terrorism whatever face it happens to have.
Quote:
They're not kidding when they label the U.S. as The Great Satan. >>>Dexter
Evil calling another evil? Very understandable in light of what is misunderstood.
In the name of God, mankind uses it for its own lusts, thus become evil intent.
I would say, that a Muslim or any other religious belief not tainted by these evil intended individual groups, are as loving and kind as you or I.
So happens, that we all have not learned to get along together yet.
If you'd put this in International Politics rather than Christian Discussion I'd have answered a good deal differently, but you're clearly coming at this from a religious perspective. That, I believe, as I've explained above, is simply the wrong way to try to understand geopolitics, and is potentially very destructive, essentially because it's too limited a view and does not actually give you any real understanding of it.>>>Dexter
I understand what you are saying, but the whole scenario is religiously oriented. Religious friction; of the kind that wars make.
Peace>>>AJ
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September 7th, 2007, 12:12 AM
Quoting look3467
Yes, it can be, if enough people believe it is. Why there? Because that's the landscape the Bible talks about; the Biblical writers didn't know about Canada, Mexico, or Cuba, or a lot of other places. Can that piece of real-estate be so important that a world catastrophe maybe in order? I mean, look at the size of it.
And another thing why there, why not Canada, Mexico or even Cuba?
I mean I have my conclusions on it but later on.
And another thing why there, why not Canada, Mexico or even Cuba?
I mean I have my conclusions on it but later on.
Quote:
That's the whole point. If you believe you can't control events, you won't try. That's pretty much how the First World War got started, but if you study a little history it's plain that it could easily have been avoided with a little sense and clear thinking at a few critical points. Armageddon could happen the same way, and it'll be our own stupid fault, not anything any deity arranged. Don't you get it? Free will means *we* are responsible. If it’s divinely ordained as believe by Christians, then events happen beyond their control. But if not, then I agree with you, we could control some events, but not all.
Quote:
No, I don't think you do. The scenario is often framed in religious terms, but that's not really what it's about. It's about land, and resources, and power, like it always is. Religion is just a post hoc justification for behaving badly.
I understand what you are saying, but the whole scenario is religiously oriented. Religious friction; of the kind that wars make.
Time Out
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September 7th, 2007, 12:41 AM
Dexter , man you got patience....i mean wow.....
Dexter , man you got patience....i mean wow.....
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
September 8th, 2007, 06:45 PM
Note:If this were a polictical thread, I wouldn't mention God.
That is the whole point precisely. “Free will” was not really free will, because it was installed as part of being alive in the flesh thereby, having no choice in the matter.
But because we are in the flesh, we now have no choice but to exercise free will.
What that means is this; having free will in the flesh is to have the lusts of the world at our finger tips.
Question:, is there anything taken out after we die? I mean, is there something to use in the other world (Supposing there is) that we could use there from here?
The builders of the Pyramids thought so, by burying with the kings articles that supposedly to use in the other life.
So, unless there is a God to curb the human desire, the human desire will dominate, and we know what happens when it does.
The war of the human soul is between two opposites, Good and Evil.
The introduction then of “the God” was to the nation of Israel. The world can take any race out of Israel, but the world can not take Israel out of the world, for they are scattered to the 4 corners of the earth.
But design, they are hated of the world and especially, those who would want to annihilate them from the face of the earth.
So, again, by design, Israel becomes the bone of contention and a witness to the world of having delivered the Messiah to the world.
According to biblical scriptures, there is a 2,000 wait to the nation of Israel for the blinders to drop from their eyes and begin to see that Jesus the one they crucified was truly the Messiah, will become emboldened, by having a change of heart.
Thus, begin to love their enemies as prescribed by the Messiah, and become the healing waters that are going to flow around the world.
There is from what I understand, no Armageddon, for Armageddon was something that Jesus had to contend with and became victorious over for us.
So, the possibility of the 2,000 years being true from the death of Jesus would put it around the year 2029AD.
If that is the case and what I understand the bible to say, then is when peace will begin to prevail amongst the Jews and the Muslims and the rest of all the world religions.
Sounds to good to be true, well, time will tell. No pat answers just speculations based on written words.
That is my story, and I will stick to that unless something better comes along that will honor the scriptures.
Peace>>>AJ
Note:If this were a polictical thread, I wouldn't mention God.
Quote:
Don't you get it? Free will means *we* are responsible>>>Dexter
That is the whole point precisely. “Free will” was not really free will, because it was installed as part of being alive in the flesh thereby, having no choice in the matter.
But because we are in the flesh, we now have no choice but to exercise free will.
What that means is this; having free will in the flesh is to have the lusts of the world at our finger tips.
Question:, is there anything taken out after we die? I mean, is there something to use in the other world (Supposing there is) that we could use there from here?
The builders of the Pyramids thought so, by burying with the kings articles that supposedly to use in the other life.
So, unless there is a God to curb the human desire, the human desire will dominate, and we know what happens when it does.
The war of the human soul is between two opposites, Good and Evil.
The introduction then of “the God” was to the nation of Israel. The world can take any race out of Israel, but the world can not take Israel out of the world, for they are scattered to the 4 corners of the earth.
But design, they are hated of the world and especially, those who would want to annihilate them from the face of the earth.
So, again, by design, Israel becomes the bone of contention and a witness to the world of having delivered the Messiah to the world.
According to biblical scriptures, there is a 2,000 wait to the nation of Israel for the blinders to drop from their eyes and begin to see that Jesus the one they crucified was truly the Messiah, will become emboldened, by having a change of heart.
Thus, begin to love their enemies as prescribed by the Messiah, and become the healing waters that are going to flow around the world.
There is from what I understand, no Armageddon, for Armageddon was something that Jesus had to contend with and became victorious over for us.
So, the possibility of the 2,000 years being true from the death of Jesus would put it around the year 2029AD.
If that is the case and what I understand the bible to say, then is when peace will begin to prevail amongst the Jews and the Muslims and the rest of all the world religions.
Sounds to good to be true, well, time will tell. No pat answers just speculations based on written words.
That is my story, and I will stick to that unless something better comes along that will honor the scriptures.
Peace>>>AJ
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,358
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
September 8th, 2007, 09:23 PM
Only those tribes who were instrumental in delivering Jesus to the cross are, but are mixed within the whole.
And that's the point: Ashkenazim Jews do NOT belong to any of those tribes as they are Gentiles. Therefore, they cannot bring about biblical salvation.
Only those tribes who were instrumental in delivering Jesus to the cross are, but are mixed within the whole.
And that's the point: Ashkenazim Jews do NOT belong to any of those tribes as they are Gentiles. Therefore, they cannot bring about biblical salvation.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
September 8th, 2007, 10:36 PM
The nation of Israel is looked as as a whole, a nation and has been dealt with in the scriptures as such.
The biblical salvation was as if thew nation of Israel were like as the Virgin Mary, and travailed in delivering the Messiah to the world.
When I say Virgin, it means that God held them innocent (Chaste)for the Crucifixion of Jesus, thus by them, the child/man Messiah was both like as fathered and offered as a sacrifice for the salvation of the world. To include all gentiles as well.
There are scriptural references that alludes to that fact, that is, if one believes in the bible.
So, Israel, then is a measure of time events as seen in the bible.
If a person was an unbeliever, but studied the bible, it would be hard for them to see the spiritual significance of things written, simply because there would be no faith in the reality of God being the author of it. behind it all.
Because I know only what is on this side of the fence, it doesn't mean that the other sides knowledge is not as equally correct.
What makes me to love and respect the other side, is what my sides God instructs me to believe.
Judging from the message given to me by the Messiah, as a gentile, throught the written word, the bible, I am at peace with the other sides beliefs based on the accomplishments of the messiah, Jesus Christ.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting gopher
Are Ashkenazim Jews- Jews or are they gentiles. A Gentile is not a Jew, but can have Jewish blood mix. Only those tribes who were instrumental in delivering Jesus to the cross are, but are mixed within the whole.
And that's the point: Ashkenazim Jews do NOT belong to any of those tribes as they are Gentiles. Therefore, they cannot bring about biblical salvation.
And that's the point: Ashkenazim Jews do NOT belong to any of those tribes as they are Gentiles. Therefore, they cannot bring about biblical salvation.
The nation of Israel is looked as as a whole, a nation and has been dealt with in the scriptures as such.
The biblical salvation was as if thew nation of Israel were like as the Virgin Mary, and travailed in delivering the Messiah to the world.
When I say Virgin, it means that God held them innocent (Chaste)for the Crucifixion of Jesus, thus by them, the child/man Messiah was both like as fathered and offered as a sacrifice for the salvation of the world. To include all gentiles as well.
There are scriptural references that alludes to that fact, that is, if one believes in the bible.
So, Israel, then is a measure of time events as seen in the bible.
If a person was an unbeliever, but studied the bible, it would be hard for them to see the spiritual significance of things written, simply because there would be no faith in the reality of God being the author of it. behind it all.
Because I know only what is on this side of the fence, it doesn't mean that the other sides knowledge is not as equally correct.
What makes me to love and respect the other side, is what my sides God instructs me to believe.
Judging from the message given to me by the Messiah, as a gentile, throught the written word, the bible, I am at peace with the other sides beliefs based on the accomplishments of the messiah, Jesus Christ.
Peace>>>AJ
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,905
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
September 8th, 2007, 10:51 PM
The lusts of the flesh are a normal thing for the flesh, it was designed that way. But to glutton over them, is what becomes the point of contention with God.
The whole purpose of having these lusts is for us to learn to govern them responsibly.
It's if I had a billion dollars, and I didn't responsibly spend it, but used it to excite all my human desires, then, that's where the problems began to manifest themselves.
You heard the story about the rich man, where it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle before a rich man can enter heaven?
What is indicated here is about what the desires of the flesh "can" produce if left to it's own without a counter from God.
And you are absolutely right about the religious zealots. In the word "zeal" lies the motive for that behavior, and that is greed for power and or money.
Which corrupts, being that the unchecked desires of the flesh have become superior to that which is counter to it, Good.
One can not get away from the human psyche having two sides that war against each other. There can be no fence straddling, it's either one or the other.
God says, I would rather you be hot or cold, but not lukewarm, for then the intent of the heart could be known.
That reminds me of the saying that I heard about what the early Indians said about a crazy man, "leave him alone, for we don't know what he is cable of doing". Hard to read.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting triedit
Jesus died for the Gentiles as well!
Personally I believe there is nothing wrong with feeding the "lusts of the flesh" so long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
But then, I'm neither a christian nor a Jew.
Religion doesn't cause war. Zealots cause war. And there are zealots of all faiths.
But then, I'm neither a christian nor a Jew.
Religion doesn't cause war. Zealots cause war. And there are zealots of all faiths.
The lusts of the flesh are a normal thing for the flesh, it was designed that way. But to glutton over them, is what becomes the point of contention with God.
The whole purpose of having these lusts is for us to learn to govern them responsibly.
It's if I had a billion dollars, and I didn't responsibly spend it, but used it to excite all my human desires, then, that's where the problems began to manifest themselves.
You heard the story about the rich man, where it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle before a rich man can enter heaven?
What is indicated here is about what the desires of the flesh "can" produce if left to it's own without a counter from God.
And you are absolutely right about the religious zealots. In the word "zeal" lies the motive for that behavior, and that is greed for power and or money.
Which corrupts, being that the unchecked desires of the flesh have become superior to that which is counter to it, Good.
One can not get away from the human psyche having two sides that war against each other. There can be no fence straddling, it's either one or the other.
God says, I would rather you be hot or cold, but not lukewarm, for then the intent of the heart could be known.
That reminds me of the saying that I heard about what the early Indians said about a crazy man, "leave him alone, for we don't know what he is cable of doing". Hard to read.
Peace>>>AJ
