Should liberals leave Catholic Church?

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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www.poetrypoem.com
By Joan Vennochi, Globe Columnist |
THE RED CARDINAL'S hat on its way to Archbishop Sean P. O'Malley sends a clear message to liberal Catholics who still hope the Catholic Church will shift their way: It isn't shifting.
Company men always reap their rewards. Cardinal Bernard Law got a basilica in Rome when the clergy sexual abuse scandal made Boston too inhospitable. O'Malley, another company man, gets elevated to cardinal for doing what the company ordered. O'Malley closed down parishes and is shutting down the vestiges of a liberal agenda in the Boston archdiocese.
Last week, seven members of the board of Catholic Charities of Boston announced their resignations. They were protesting the effort by Massachusetts bishops to prohibit gays from adopting children from their Catholic social service agencies. The seven who quit said the prohibition ''threatens the very essence of our Christian mission."
But the Roman Catholic Church, the institution seeking the prohibition, holds a drastically different view.
Church doctrine states that allowing children to be adopted by same-sex couples ''would actually mean doing violence to these children." Gay adoptions are ''gravely immoral."
If you agree with those principles, you are, according to the Vatican, a Catholic in good standing.
If you don't, you're not.
Liberals raised as Catholics refuse to accept this reality. We think we can be prochoice, pro-gay marriage , pro-gay adoption, and in favor of married and female priests and still call ourselves Catholic. The people who make the rules say we don't meet the criteria.
Every pronouncement from Pope Benedict XVI draws another line between official church doctrine and liberal ideology. When do liberals choose one side or the other?
Sue O'Connell, the copublisher of Bay Windows, New England's largest publication for lesbian and gay readers, believes it's time for liberal Catholics to take a stand -- just like board members did regarding their affiliation with Catholic Charities.
''I know a lot of Catholics, gay and straight," said O'Connell, a lesbian mother of a 5-year-old daughter. ''Everyone continues to go to church and act like their parish is not part of all of this -- the sexual scandal, the association to the Vatican and its stand on gay adoption. Everyone who believes that is in a state of denial."
''It's time to find a new path," she said.
O'Connell said the church is doing the expected -- enforcing its rules.
Catholics who don't agree with church doctrine are doing the unexpected -- sticking around where they are unwelcome, rather than moving on.
The stubborness is rooted in nostalgia, inertia, and arrogance. We cherish some memories, like the lacy white communion dress and the innocence of childhood confessions. Despite spotty attendance, we enjoy the ritual of Sunday Mass. We also believe our views are the enlightened ones and Rome's represent the neanderthal; eventually we will get a pope who understands that.
Liberals view the Catholic Charities controversy in Boston as a watershed moment, signaling a church hierarchy out of touch with ordinary Catholics. But the resignations in Boston, while laudable to fellow liberals, do not ruffle Rome nor Catholics who accept the rules. They are welcome. Just read the online posts to Catholic World News.
The local fervor to prevent gays from adopting children also shows that the sexual abuse scandal did not distract the church from the rules it cares most about. This week, the state attorney general's office scolded the archdiocese for failing to devise a system to keep track of abusive priests.
Conservative Catholics hold the power, not just in Rome but in the United States. When mobilized against abortion and gay marriage, they are a potent political force.
Catholics helped reelect George W. Bush. Survey results released last year by DemocracyCorps, the consulting group headed by James Carville, Stanley Greenberg, and Bob Shrum, showed that Bill Clinton carried the white Catholic vote by 7 points; Al Gore lost the white Catholic vote by 7 points; and John Kerry, a Catholic, lost the Catholic vote by 13 points. That is a 20 point swing, to the advantage of the GOP. It explains why Governor Mitt Romney, a probable Republican presidential candidate, would sympathize with Catholic bishops on the issue of gay adoption.
The church in Rome thinks in centuries, not in news cycles. It isn't budging.
Will liberals in America ever get the message?
Joan Vennochi
 

gopher

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I cannot speak for everyone but the Catholic Church in the Twin Cities and in NYC is the most liberal church anywhere. Therefore, there is no other place for libs to go.
 

Josephine

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2007
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I'm sorry...not meaning to be disrespectful...but the Vatican or Catholic Church needs to educate themselves. They come across completely ignorant on many issues.
To say that allowing gays to adopt is committing violence against the child...is disgusting and irresponsible. They need a serious dose of reality to see what a family is like and the many different types of families...not just the standard Nuclear Family. Not to mention seeing what true family violence is actually about!

I'm glad there are "liberal" catholic churches to at least give the Church some essence of understanding and acceptance of the world and the people around them.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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I'm sorry...not meaning to be disrespectful...but the Vatican or Catholic Church needs to educate themselves. They come across completely ignorant on many issues.
To say that allowing gays to adopt is committing violence against the child...is disgusting and irresponsible. They need a serious dose of reality to see what a family is like and the many different types of families...not just the standard Nuclear Family. Not to mention seeing what true family violence is actually about!

I'm glad there are "liberal" catholic churches to at least give the Church some essence of understanding and acceptance of the world and the people around them.

The Church is not about to change the doctrines of God to suit liberal minded heretics. It is the task of the individual to conform him or herself to the teachings of the faith, not the other way around.

And regardless of your PC point of view, it disgusts me personally that homosexual people are allowed to adopt children.
 

sanctus

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Oct 27, 2006
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I cannot speak for everyone but the Catholic Church in the Twin Cities and in NYC is the most liberal church anywhere. Therefore, there is no other place for libs to go.

Than the onus is on them to, basically, get with the programme. Why belong to the Church if you don't agree or believe in its teachings?
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Than the onus is on them to, basically, get with the programme. Why belong to the Church if you don't agree or believe in its teachings?
Which is why I wonder how the church has managed to survive. It definitly does NOT seem open to new ideas, to different interpretations or to anyone even QUESTIONING the word of god. I also don't think that it is just liberals who question god and the teachings that man has interpreted. I think many conservative minded folks have concerns or questions or are not comfortable with all of the idealogies.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
The Church is not about to change the doctrines of God to suit liberal minded heretics. It is the task of the individual to conform him or herself to the teachings of the faith, not the other way around.

And regardless of your PC point of view, it disgusts me personally that homosexual people are allowed to adopt children.
It disgusts me that someone like you is teaching morals and values to OTHERS when it is clear that your morals and values have a strong degree of hate within them.I mean, disgusting? Come on...that's a strong word...a hateful word.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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Think Hospital. The hospital is where ill people come to get healed. The church should be there to address all issues and present Gods face in the midst of all of it.

The church doors should be a foot from the gates of hell, to rescue some poor souls headed there in.

Not on a hill, away from the main stream world.
That does not mean that the church can't be just in standing firm on issues, but that the church would in its firmness be compassionate still.

Peace>>>AJ
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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sanctus said:
Than the onus is on them to, basically, get with the programme. Why belong to the Church if you don't agree or believe in its teachings?

That's just it --- they DO believe in what the church teaches. As I have said enough times - if Jesus walked the earth today he would be the biggest lib on earth! He would DEFINITELY be Catholic!!
 

triedit

inimitable
Ive never quite understood how what happens in a person's bedroom has anything to do with a child (unless of course the child is present...) I know some heterosexual couples who clearly violate many other sorts of church doctrines yet they would be allowed to adopt.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
Ive never quite understood how what happens in a person's bedroom has anything to do with a child (unless of course the child is present...) I know some heterosexual couples who clearly violate many other sorts of church doctrines yet they would be allowed to adopt.
True...very true. I think two loving, caring, devoted same sex parents are going to deliver a wonderful upbringing, just as two loving, caring, devoted hetero couples would. I don't see the issue, really.
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
The Church is not about to change the doctrines of God to suit liberal minded heretics. It is the task of the individual to conform him or herself to the teachings of the faith, not the other way around.

And regardless of your PC point of view, it disgusts me personally that homosexual people are allowed to adopt children.
Okay...so, you have stated over and over again that the teachings that you teach are THE way, the ONLY way, the only way to interpret the bible and what god is telling us. Soooo...why does it matter what anyone else says? Your right, right? Unless they go along with you, they are wrong...and, I would assume are destined to a live in the giant barbecue pit known as hell! So, basically, the last laugh will be on you...right? So, what does it matter what others say, think, or do? If they are in the wrong as you see it, they WILL pay the ultimate price. So, why not let people be who they are?
 

jwv

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May 3, 2007
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Okay...so, you have stated over and over again that the teachings that you teach are THE way, the ONLY way, the only way to interpret the bible and what god is telling us. Soooo...why does it matter what anyone else says? Your right, right? Unless they go along with you, they are wrong...and, I would assume are destined to a live in the giant barbecue pit known as hell! So, basically, the last laugh will be on you...right? So, what does it matter what others say, think, or do? If they are in the wrong as you see it, they WILL pay the ultimate price. So, why not let people be who they are?
No, that's not totally what Sanctus is saying. What he is saying, and is the teaching of the Church, is that it contains the fullness of the faith. Why would you belong to a Church if you disagreed with its doctrines? But if you do belong to the Catholic church, it is your task to conform to what the Church teaches.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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``if you do belong to the Catholic church, it is your task to conform to what the Church teaches. ``

Liberals in this region love the Church because it teaches, but more importantly, it largely practices what the Bible teaches. We are all human and all too often we fail to fully conform to proper biblical teaching. But we try!

This is why Catholic churches are filled with wall-to-wall libs every Sunday!
 

snfu73

disturber of the peace
No, that's not totally what Sanctus is saying. What he is saying, and is the teaching of the Church, is that it contains the fullness of the faith. Why would you belong to a Church if you disagreed with its doctrines? But if you do belong to the Catholic church, it is your task to conform to what the Church teaches.
Conforming to who's vision though? And, if the Catholic Church states that it is the only true church, and if you are not part of it, you are some sort of a heathen destined to hell, then that's a pretty strong incentive to want to STAY in the church. However, if the church is not even OPEN to ANY ideas or thoughts on various interpretations, what the heck is a follower to do? And, what is this saying about the church? I STILL maintain, although Sanctus has argued against this, that the bible is as open to interpretation as much as any book...that anything ever written can and will be interpreted slightly different by each reader. So, what essentially is happening is that the powers that be within the church have decided on what will be taught...have decided the way it is going to be. Well, what makes them right? Is that really what god is trying to say, or is it what the leaders of the church have to say? Therefore, as a Catholic, are you not allowed to read the texts that are provided, come up with different interpretations, and then ask questions and have an open dialogue? The answer appears to be no...to question god...or in acuallity the leaders of the church, seems to be a horrible thing to do. I don't get this, OR see how this is different than a cult! Anyway, basically the message is "shut up, don't ask questions, obey...or there is the door...and with it a one way ticket to hell!". So...what is a follower to do? Especially someone who has grown up in the catholic church, believes that it is the only church, but, then, realizes that, say, they are gay! Suddenly, they are caught between two worlds. So, they search, and they read, and they interpret and they try to gain knowledge and understanding. But, then, to present these ideas to the church? You are instantly shut down, it would appear.

It's just...I don't get it. This idea of an absolute way of thinking...or a carved in stone mentality that seems to go along with the catholic church is scary, odd, and...well, it's just not very realistic if you ask me.

But, in many ways I agree...I don't really understand why ANYONE would stick with the catholic church. If you don't agree with their teachings...sure...don't go. I just can't figure out why anyone would actually agree with their teachings in their entirity, no questions asked, full acceptance and obedience....allowing someone else to dictate the word of god. That's not something that I want to be part of at all, and don't really get why anyone else would subject themselves to that. But, that's just me.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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The Church is not about to change the doctrines of God to suit liberal minded heretics. It is the task of the individual to conform him or herself to the teachings of the faith, not the other way around.

And regardless of your PC point of view, it disgusts me personally that homosexual people are allowed to adopt children.

That's the problem the church has isn't it? They either stay true to their old teachings and become irrelevant since their members don't follow their rules.... Or.... they evolve to remain relevant and then lose their identity. Personally, I see them staying true to their ideas and becoming completely irrelevant. I think that's already happened to a large extent. Catholics mostly live like the rest of us despite what they hear on Sundays. I think the church does some good, but I don't think its influence is stronger than society's in general.

My point of view on gay adoption has nothing to do with "pc" by the way. I think that implies I've been brainwashed into thinking it's ok when I have developed my opinions based on my life experiences just as you probably did. I've seen too many bad straight parents and good gay parents to think the issue of sexuality matters at all. I'm much more concerned with things like their ability to feed, clothe and love the child. I've also seen too many children wait for placement to feel anything but frustration when people want to deny them a home for that reason. I would feel more understanding if they were all lining up to take in foster children, but they aren't.
 
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BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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Than the onus is on them to, basically, get with the programme. Why belong to the Church if you don't agree or believe in its teachings?

That depends on what you think what The Church is actually made of.
 

Josephine

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2007
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The Catholic Church does more damage that it has any concept of. Telling people to not use birth control and whatnot. I'm sorry, but to simply say that those who follow the faith should follow all the rules is ignorant. People in South American and Africa in Canada and the US...all over the freaken world are having premaritial sex...that's a fact. For the Church to then keep their heads stuck in the sand and tell people it's a sin to use birth control...is irresponsible and ignorant.

Times change, and people and our way of thinking need to change with it.

Sanctus...you have preached about love and acceptance and now, you disappoint.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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The Catholic Church does more damage that it has any concept of. Telling people to not use birth control and whatnot. I'm sorry, but to simply say that those who follow the faith should follow all the rules is ignorant. People in South American and Africa in Canada and the US...all over the freaken world are having premaritial sex...that's a fact. For the Church to then keep their heads stuck in the sand and tell people it's a sin to use birth control...is irresponsible and ignorant.

I'll never understand that argument. If people decide the church is wrong about premarital sex, then aren't they moronic to decide it's right about birth control? Choosing to ignore one major doctrine, but follow another, and then blaming the church for the end result, is a weak, weak argument.

Either follow all of the doctrines (ie, monogamous sex), or disobey ALL necessary ones to keep you safe from your folly.
 

Josephine

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2007
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I'll never understand that argument. If people decide the church is wrong about premarital sex, then aren't they moronic to decide it's right about birth control? Choosing to ignore one major doctrine, but follow another, and then blaming the church for the end result, is a weak, weak argument.

Either follow all of the doctrines (ie, monogamous sex), or disobey ALL necessary ones to keep you safe from your folly.


Ok...yeah ideally that sounds good. But that's not how religion works! People pick and choose what to believe and what not to, it's all about interpretation. I have no explination for the behaviour of condoning premarital sex yet not using birth control because it's against the church rules...but it does happen and this is a pretty big issue for many organizations out there trying to education people on using contraceptives. Weak argument...maybe to many of us...but to those following this religion...it's obviously relevant.