April 16th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Quoting sanctus
You know, this week I firmly feel He got it wrong, and there should be at least three to four spouses (pick your mix, I don't care, so long as they can clean and run errands!) to run one household. lol.
Yet, Our Lord did teach that a man was to be joined with one woman, and that this was what God intended for us.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558 
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
April 16th, 2007, 06:29 PM
He certainly left no room for options
Matthew 19:4-6 (New King James Version)
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Ephesians 5:30-32 (New King James Version)
30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Mark 10:7-9 (New King James Version)
7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
I can also provide a quick exegesis if you wish.
Quoting BitWhys
and he said explicitly that was the only way?
passages, please.
passages, please.
He certainly left no room for options
Matthew 19:4-6 (New King James Version)
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Ephesians 5:30-32 (New King James Version)
30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Mark 10:7-9 (New King James Version)
7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
I can also provide a quick exegesis if you wish.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
April 16th, 2007, 06:31 PM
You go dude, I'm suitably impressed.
Quoting darkbeaver
"Next a word to you who have great possessions. Weep and wail over the miserable fate descending on you. Your riches have rotted; your fine clothes are moth-eaten; your silver and gold have rusted away, and the very rust will be evidence against you and consume your flesh like fire. You have piled up wealth in an age that is near its close. The wages you never paid to the men who mowed your fields are loud against you, and the outcry of the reapers has reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in wanton luxury, fattening yourselves like cattle and the day for slaughter has come. You have condemned the innocent and murdered him; he offers no resistance."
James
James
You go dude, I'm suitably impressed.
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
April 16th, 2007, 06:31 PM
Thou the question was on divorce, Jesus restated God's intended design.
To vary from that design is upon our own selfs.
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting sanctus
I agree with you Sanctus and this verse give evidence of that: Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Yet, Our Lord did teach that a man was to be joined with one woman, and that this was what God intended for us.
Thou the question was on divorce, Jesus restated God's intended design.
To vary from that design is upon our own selfs.
Peace>>>AJ
Council Member
Posts: 1,926
Location: Northern California
Location: Northern California
April 16th, 2007, 06:34 PM
Peace>>>AJ
Quoting darkbeaver
Speaking of the flesh! The lusts thereof! "Next a word to you who have great possessions. Weep and wail over the miserable fate descending on you. Your riches have rotted; your fine clothes are moth-eaten; your silver and gold have rusted away, and the very rust will be evidence against you and consume your flesh like fire. You have piled up wealth in an age that is near its close. The wages you never paid to the men who mowed your fields are loud against you, and the outcry of the reapers has reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in wanton luxury, fattening yourselves like cattle and the day for slaughter has come. You have condemned the innocent and murdered him; he offers no resistance."
James
James
Peace>>>AJ
House Member
Posts: 2,853
Location: California
Location: California
April 16th, 2007, 06:59 PM
Quoting BitWhys
OK, maybe a stupid question (I'm obviously no religious scholar)... but, if that's what God intended for us all, then how come priests have to stay unmarried? Doesn't that imply that it isn't what he intended for us all?
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh"
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
April 16th, 2007, 07:01 PM
Quoting BitWhys
It isn't speaking in the literal, physical sense. Rather, it suggests an emotional bond. In other words, a man is devoted to his parents until such a time as he takes him a wife. At that point his attention shifts from parents to spouse. Not to suggest also that a man must disregard his parents. Instead, in joining with a woman, he becomes his own household, as it were.
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh"
and that's the only reason a man shall leave his father and mother?
really Sanctus?
and that's the only reason a man shall leave his father and mother?
really Sanctus?
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
April 16th, 2007, 07:04 PM
In fact, both sorts of men serve the Church, married and unmarried, as priests. The norm is celibacy, but not by any means the only way to serve as priest.
Quoting tracy
Not a stupid question at all. We are talking two different states of being, one secular and one religious. Through examples from St.Paul and Jesus Himself, the Church discerns that it is best if a priest abstains from marriage so as to devote himself more fully to his vocation. St. Paul actually speaks to this. However, St. Paul also indicated that if a man was unable to contain his lust, it would be best if he was married.
OK, maybe a stupid question (I'm obviously no religious scholar)... but, if that's what God intended for us all, then how come priests have to stay unmarried? Doesn't that imply that it isn't what he intended for us all?
In fact, both sorts of men serve the Church, married and unmarried, as priests. The norm is celibacy, but not by any means the only way to serve as priest.
what green dots?
Posts: 3,157
April 16th, 2007, 07:05 PM
don't spring my traps like that next time. I put up with two pages of predictable crap and you go and screw it up for me.
Quoting tracy
hey!
OK, maybe a stupid question (I'm obviously no religious scholar)... but, if that's what God intended for us all, then how come priests have to stay unmarried?...
don't spring my traps like that next time. I put up with two pages of predictable crap and you go and screw it up for me.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
April 16th, 2007, 07:07 PM
(Smiling large) My friend, you'll have to do better than that to trap ME on the Scriptures...hah hah hah
Quoting BitWhys
hey!
don't spring my traps like that next time. I put up with two pages of predictable crap and you go and screw it up for me.
don't spring my traps like that next time. I put up with two pages of predictable crap and you go and screw it up for me.
(Smiling large) My friend, you'll have to do better than that to trap ME on the Scriptures...hah hah hah
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
April 16th, 2007, 07:09 PM
Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church's practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.
Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.
Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus' kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.
1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.
1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.
1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.
1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”
1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.
1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church's practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).
1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.
2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.
Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.
Isaiah 56:3-7 - the eunuchs who keep God's covenant will have a special place in the kingdom of heaven.
Jer. 16:1-4 - Jeremiah is told by God not to take a wife or have children.
Quoting BitWhys
OK, I'll play....
passage please.
Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church's practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.
Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.
Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus' kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.
1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.
1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.
1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.
1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”
1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.
1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church's practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).
1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.
2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.
Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.
Isaiah 56:3-7 - the eunuchs who keep God's covenant will have a special place in the kingdom of heaven.
Jer. 16:1-4 - Jeremiah is told by God not to take a wife or have children.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
April 16th, 2007, 07:21 PM
Quoting BitWhys
Because you don't wish to see the obvious. There is already a married priesthood. You asked about references to celibacy.
I see nothing in those passages from the gospels that exclude same-sex blessings or married priesthood.
what green dots?
Posts: 3,157
April 16th, 2007, 07:27 PM
no
you were talking about "priest abstains from marriage". you're forgetting about countenance.
Quoting sanctus
mmm
Because you don't wish to see the obvious. There is already a married priesthood. You asked about references to celibacy.
no
you were talking about "priest abstains from marriage". you're forgetting about countenance.
House Member
Posts: 2,853
Location: California
Location: California
April 16th, 2007, 07:27 PM
So the short answer is that we don't have to be married and we aren't dissapointing God by remaining unmarried... unless we want sex, then it has to be in marriage. OK...
Quoting sanctus
Thanks
Not a stupid question at all. We are talking two different states of being, one secular and one religious. Through examples from St.Paul and Jesus Himself, the Church discerns that it is best if a priest abstains from marriage so as to devote himself more fully to his vocation. St. Paul actually speaks to this. However, St. Paul also indicated that if a man was unable to contain his lust, it would be best if he was married.
In fact, both sorts of men serve the Church, married and unmarried, as priests. The norm is celibacy, but not by any means the only way to serve as priest.
In fact, both sorts of men serve the Church, married and unmarried, as priests. The norm is celibacy, but not by any means the only way to serve as priest.
So the short answer is that we don't have to be married and we aren't dissapointing God by remaining unmarried... unless we want sex, then it has to be in marriage. OK...
