And God Gave Them Over ...

Motar
#1
The Election and the Judgment of God

"Nearly 40 years ago, in a famous speech at Harvard University, the great Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said: 'There are meaningful warnings which history gives a threatened or perishing society. Such are, for instance, the decadence of art, or a lack of great statesmen.'

Talk about prophetic!

Folks, I might as well just say it: I am convinced that this election is an indication that God is judging America.

Now claiming to know God’s mind both for what and with what He is bringing judgment is theologically indefensible and only makes us look silly. (You may recall a few notable Christians who stuck their foot in their mouths after 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina). And yet, as Stephen Keillor argued in his book God’s Judgments, it is also theologically indefensible to not acknowledge God’s working in history, including through acts of judgment.

And in this case, I am ready to say, God is judging our country. Why? As my colleague Roberto Rivera often says, 'The five scariest words in the Bible are, ‘…and God gave them over’.

The most common way God judges is with the natural consequences of our choices and behavior. This is especially true in politics, which is mostly downstream from – and a reflection of – the broader culture. In other words, especially in our country, we tend to get the leaders we deserve."
The Election and the Judgment of God (external - login to view)

"Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done." (Romans 1:28 NIV)

In what ways has God given western civilization over? How should the body of Christ respond?
 
gerryh
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

How should the body of Christ respond?



by allowing all the children to die a slow and agonizing death through starvation, like he does in other parts of the world.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#3  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post


In what ways has God given western civilization over?

Cursed us with wealth, peace, and prosperity undreamed of in the vast majority of the world and the entirety of history.

Quote:

How should the body of Christ respond?

I like "murder anybody who doesn't agree with us." It's traditional.
 
MHz
#4
So on the grave it will say, "killed, because it needed doing", and they said time travel wasn't possible.
 
Motar
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Cursed us with wealth, peace, and prosperity undreamed of in the vast majority of the world and the entirety of history. I like "murder anybody who doesn't agree with us." It's traditional.

Agree, TB. Personal entitlement and social aggression are pervasive and entrenched in contemporary western culture.
 
Ludlow
#6
We need ta take this nation back fer gawd. First thang ta do is get rid of those stankin lefties by gawg. Only way ta make
merca great again

amen and hallelureya
 
taxslave
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

The Election and the Judgment of God

"Nearly 40 years ago, in a famous speech at Harvard University, the great Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said: 'There are meaningful warnings which history gives a threatened or perishing society. Such are, for instance, the decadence of art, or a lack of great statesmen.'

Talk about prophetic!

Folks, I might as well just say it: I am convinced that this election is an indication that God is judging America.

Now claiming to know God’s mind both for what and with what He is bringing judgment is theologically indefensible and only makes us look silly. (You may recall a few notable Christians who stuck their foot in their mouths after 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina). And yet, as Stephen Keillor argued in his book God’s Judgments, it is also theologically indefensible to not acknowledge God’s working in history, including through acts of judgment.

And in this case, I am ready to say, God is judging our country. Why? As my colleague Roberto Rivera often says, 'The five scariest words in the Bible are, ‘…and God gave them over’.

The most common way God judges is with the natural consequences of our choices and behavior. This is especially true in politics, which is mostly downstream from – and a reflection of – the broader culture. In other words, especially in our country, we tend to get the leaders we deserve."
The Election and the Judgment of God (external - login to view)

"Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done." (Romans 1:28 NIV)

In what ways has God given western civilization over? How should the body of Christ respond?

Whose god?
 
darkbeaver
+1
#8
Solzhenitsyns last book was not printed in the west, Two Hundred Years together explains some things about some gods.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

Agree, TB. Personal entitlement and social aggression are pervasive and entrenched in contemporary western culture.

I'd love to hear of another culture where the lower half of society has the wealth, freedom, and peace they have in the West.
 
Ludlow
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

Solzhenitsyns last book was not printed in the west, Two Hundred Years together explains some things about some gods.

they're gonna put me in the movies. They're gonna make a big star outa me. Gonna make a film about a mayn that's sad and lonely. And all I gotta do is act naturally.~Ringo
 
darkbeaver
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

I'd love to hear of another culture where the lower half of society has the wealth, freedom, and peace they have in the West.

What kind of culture accepts without question the standardization of a lower half?
 
Motar
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

In what ways has God given western civilization over?

"Some years ago, my wife, Ruth, was reading the draft of a book I was writing. When she finished a section describing the terrible downward spiral of our nation’s moral standards and the idolatry of worshiping false gods such as technology and sex, she startled me by exclaiming, 'If God doesn’t punish America, He’ll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.'

She was probably thinking of a passage in Ezekiel where God tells why He brought those cities to ruin. 'Now this was the sin of … Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.' (Ezekiel 16:49–50, NIV).

I wonder what Ruth would think of America if she were alive today. In the years since she made that remark, millions of babies have been aborted and our nation seems largely unconcerned. Self-centered indulgence, pride, and a lack of shame over sin are now emblems of the American lifestyle."
https://billygraham.org/story/billy-...s-for-america/ (external - login to view)
 
Tecumsehsbones
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

"Some years ago, my wife, Ruth, was reading the draft of a book I was writing. When she finished a section describing the terrible downward spiral of our nation’s moral standards and the idolatry of worshiping false gods such as technology and sex, she startled me by exclaiming, 'If God doesn’t punish America, He’ll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.'

She was probably thinking of a passage in Ezekiel where God tells why He brought those cities to ruin. 'Now this was the sin of … Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.' (Ezekiel 16:49–50, NIV).

I wonder what Ruth would think of America if she were alive today. In the years since she made that remark, millions of babies have been aborted and our nation seems largely unconcerned. Self-centered indulgence, pride, and a lack of shame over sin are now emblems of the American lifestyle."
https://billygraham.org/story/billy-...s-for-america/ (external - login to view)

At what point was America better? Give me a year, or even a decade.
 
Ludlow
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

"Some years ago, my wife, Ruth, was reading the draft of a book I was writing. When she finished a section describing the terrible downward spiral of our nation’s moral standards and the idolatry of worshiping false gods such as technology and sex, she startled me by exclaiming, 'If God doesn’t punish America, He’ll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.'

She was probably thinking of a passage in Ezekiel where God tells why He brought those cities to ruin. 'Now this was the sin of … Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.' (Ezekiel 16:49–50, NIV).

I wonder what Ruth would think of America if she were alive today. In the years since she made that remark, millions of babies have been aborted and our nation seems largely unconcerned. Self-centered indulgence, pride, and a lack of shame over sin are now emblems of the American lifestyle."
https://billygraham.org/story/billy-...s-for-america/ (external - login to view)

In his young years Mister Graham was troubled with all the contradictions in the bible. Apparently he was able to overlook that and continue on. Something to be ignored I suppose.
 
Cliffy
#15
America worships its TV evangelists. I wonder if they are the false gods he is talking about.
When was America ever moral? When they were slaughtering its indigenous peoples, when raping and beating their slaves, when distributing to natives smallpox infected blankets? When good Christians tossed Jews off of bridges for being Jews? When painting "JEW" in big red letters on their doors? How about rounding up Japanese into internment camps and stealing all their property? Shall I go on?
 
Motar
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

How should the body of Christ respond?

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction."(2 Timothy 3:14-17; 4:1-2 NIV)


Walk and talk Christ.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#17
So, Motar. . .

What, in your opinion, was the time when God sheltered and blessed the West? Before God "gave them over?"
 
Motar
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

So, Motar. . . What, in your opinion, was the time when God sheltered and blessed the West? Before God "gave them over?"

Understand, TB that God's agenda is restoration and it is an ongoing process. Also know that God's program takes into account our response. His "sheltering" and "giving over" occur simultaneously and wax and wane according to God's love and wisdom and our chosen outcomes.

There is no possibility of pinpointing a time of absolute blessing or period of unconditional abandonment in the West by God. He is still working out His agenda and we are still adjusting. Trends however can be identified.

What is your opinion of the spiritual and moral trajectory of the West? the world?
 
Tecumsehsbones
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

Understand, TB that God's agenda is restoration and it is an ongoing process. Also know that God's program takes into account our response. His "sheltering" and "giving over" occur simultaneously and wax and wane according to God's love and wisdom and our chosen outcomes.

There is no possibility of pinpointing a time of absolute blessing or period of unconditional abandonment in the West by God. He is still working out His agenda and we are still adjusting. Trends however can be identified.

What is your opinion of the spiritual and moral trajectory of the West? the world?

I think, on average, we are dead-bang where we where. . . pick your time. We have resolved some of the macro cruelties like slavery and genocide and unfreedom of women and non-whites, and gone far in the area of not forbidding that which does not affect anyone but the actor, but at the same time we have engendered a more disconnected, less compassionate society, where tens of millions are denied a place to stand and people to be with, and even the basic necessities of life.

Among my ancestral people, the idea of a chief eating while a child starved wouldn't just be illegal or immoral, it would be unthinkable, and if anyone were to propose such a thing, he'd be regarded as dangerously insane. But "the West" regarded us as subhuman. Makes you wonder, don't it?

It is clear to me from the text you quoted that Mr. Graham thinks that permitting abortion is grounds for God abandoning the west, and that slavery and genocide were not grounds. So you'll forgive me if I don't think much of Mr. Graham's god.
 
DaSleeper
#20
I tend to buy from well established firms......
So buying into religion from nutbars on the internet, such as Megahurtz, Motar,Selfshame,frenchpatriot, or Cliffy would be counterproductive.
Why said nutbars try to sell their version of spirituality on the internet is ridiculous,
A person has to be deranged to be converted by anything on the internet, as is shown by terrorists converts....
Last edited by DaSleeper; Aug 15th, 2016 at 12:50 PM..
 
Motar
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

I think, on average, we are dead-bang where we where. . . pick your time. We have resolved some of the macro cruelties like slavery and genocide and unfreedom of women and non-whites, and gone far in the area of not forbidding that which does not affect anyone but the actor, but at the same time we have engendered a more disconnected, less compassionate society, where tens of millions are denied a place to stand and people to be with, and even the basic necessities of life.

Among my ancestral people, the idea of a chief eating while a child starved wouldn't just be illegal or immoral, it would be unthinkable, and if anyone were to propose such a thing, he'd be regarded as dangerously insane. But "the West" regarded us as subhuman. Makes you wonder, don't it?

It is clear to me from the text you quoted that Mr. Graham thinks that permitting abortion is grounds for God abandoning the west, and that slavery and genocide were not grounds. So you'll forgive me if I don't think much of Mr. Graham's god.

Appreciate your thoughts, TB.

Mr. Graham's views on abortion as grounds for judgment are likely rooted in Bible context:

"God prohibited Israel from child sacrifice in general and Molech worship in particular. Leviticus 20:2-5 states, 'Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek."

What does the Bible say about child sacrifice? (external - login to view)
 
darkbeaver
#22
What was Israel? What is Israel? hahahahahahahah
 
Motar
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

What was Israel? What is Israel? hahahahahahahah

There it is, TB. Gravity suspended ... by giddiness : )
 
Tecumsehsbones
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

There it is, TB. Gravity suspended ... by giddiness : )

Gotta get me some of that giddiness. Maybe we can use it to launch rockets.
 
gerryh
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

wax and wane according to God's love and wisdom and our chosen outcomes.

There is no possibility of pinpointing a time of absolute blessing or period of unconditional abandonment in the West by God. He is still working out His agenda and we are still adjusting. Trends however can be identified.



So, from this I take it that God loves us more or less depending? That there are times when he will abandon us? Is that right?
 
Tecumsehsbones
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

So, from this I take it that God loves us more or less depending? That there are times when he will abandon us? Is that right?

If you fall short of your murdered gays quota, god's gonna take his ball, and his bat, and go home.
 
darkbeaver
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

There it is, TB. Gravity suspended ... by giddiness : )

It's a question. Answer it.

Quote: Originally Posted by MotarView Post

There it is, TB. Gravity suspended ... by giddiness : )

Gravity is easy to suspend.
 
gerryh
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

If you fall short of your murdered gays quota, god's gonna take his ball, and his bat, and go home.



It is almost sounding that way, or at least take his ball and bat and go home, however, I'd like to see motar answer this. In plain english, please.
 
MHz
#29
The park the game was played in is also His so He doesn't have to 'go home' He is already at home.
 
Motar
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

So, from this I take it that God loves us more or less depending? That there are times when he will abandon us? Is that right?

God's love and abandonment judgment are on display in the atoning sacrifice of his Son:

"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) (Matthew 27:46 NIV)
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?" (Psalm 22:1 NIV)

God loves us and demonstrates His love for us in Jesus so that we never have to experience His abandonment.
 

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