Two Witnesses

[Motar]

"And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. They are 'the two olive trees' and the two lampstands, and 'they stand before the Lord of the earth.' If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.' And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.” (Revelation 11:3-14 NIV)

In the interlude between the 6th and 7th trumpets in Revelation chapter 11, two prominent and potent witnesses are appointed.

Why does the action in this account mix past, present and future tenses? Why are there two witnesses and who are they?

 

[Ludlow]

"And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. They are 'the two olive trees' and the two lampstands, and 'they stand before the Lord of the earth.' If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.' And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.” (Revelation 11:3-14 NIV)

In the interlude between the 6th and 7th trumpets in Revelation chapter 11, two prominent and potent witnesses are appointed.

Why does the action in this account mix past, present and future tenses? Why are there two witnesses and who are they?

No one could know that Motar. The writer of Revelation picked that up from the old testament. The symbolism of this isn't known.

 

[Motar]

No one could know that Motar. The writer of Revelation picked that up from the old testament. The symbolism of this isn't known.

Agree, LL. The mix of verb tenses suggests past, present (time of revelation/recording) and future significance and/or fulfillment.

 

[selfsame]

The book of Revelation is ambiguous and very mysterious; so anyone may give his own understanding according to his imagination.

Therefore, I think it is not proper to base one's belief on such ambiguity. This is only my personal opinion.

 

[Ludlow]

The book of Revelation is ambiguous and very mysterious; so anyone may give his own understanding according to his imagination.

Therefore, I think it is not proper to base one's belief on such ambiguity. This is only my personal opinion.

Your personal opinion doesn't mean much in the light of your ignorance Selfsame. Stick to your own book.

 

[Motar]

The book of Revelation is ambiguous and very mysterious; so anyone may give his own understanding according to his imagination.

Therefore, I think it is not proper to base one's belief on such ambiguity. This is only my personal opinion.

The symbolism and timeline(s) of Revelation are indeed subject to varied interpretations and speculations, SS.

What stated purpose(s) does God present in the revelation for the revelation?

 

[darkbeaver]

"And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. They are 'the two olive trees' and the two lampstands, and 'they stand before the Lord of the earth.' If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.' And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.” (Revelation 11:3-14 NIV)

In the interlude between the 6th and 7th trumpets in Revelation chapter 11, two prominent and potent witnesses are appointed.

Why does the action in this account mix past, present and future tenses? Why are there two witnesses and who are they?

Sloppy forgery more than likely.

10. An angel strangled Mohammed with a book (Koran = Revelation). An angel made John the Evangelist eat a book (Revelation). Moses burned his mouth with burning coal.http://www.chronologia.org/en/prorok/index.htm

 

[Motar]

Sloppy forgery more than likely.

"Then I asked the angel, 'What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?' Again I asked him, 'What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?' He replied, 'Do you not know what these are?' 'No, my lord,' I said. 'So he said, 'These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.” (Zechariah 4:11-14 NIV)

 

[selfsame]

Sloppy forgery more than likely.

10. An angel strangled Mohammed with a book (Koran = Revelation). An angel made John the Evangelist eat a book (Revelation). Moses burned his mouth with burning coal.http://www.chronologia.org/en/prorok/index.htm

1- No angel strangled Mohammed, this is only a tradition which is not in the Quran.
Abu abd-Allah criticized this story: he said: it can't be a huge blackness and loud sound and strangling of one who is alone in a cave ... certainly such man would lose his mind.

But the angel spoke to Mohammed through revelation; he heard the revelation, knew it by heart, refused or surprised at the start, then he carried out his task and conveyed the Quran to people.
That's it: no strangling or anything like that.
It is like what Abu abd-Allah heard also by inspiration: when the angel told him: you are the Mahdi, so carry out your duty.
No strangling or anything of this sort.
Abu abd-Allah at the start surprised and objected, but the angel continued telling him until he was convinced.

2- While in my personal opinion, I think the book of Revelation is not authentic.

3- About Moses and the burning his mouth by a coal brand; nothing of that in the Quran, but the tradition told by our parents is not true, as I think ... how can an infant pick a brand before putting it in his mouth ... this is not logical.

In the Quran, God cast loveliness on the infant Moses: every one saw him, would love him .. and this is more logical and acceptable: the child is loved by all people, with his nice shape and innocence, and may be with his childish smiles ..

 

[Ludlow]

1- No angel strangled Mohammed, this is only a tradition which is not in the Quran.
Abu abd-Allah criticized this story: he said: it can't be a huge blackness and loud sound and strangling of one who is alone in a cave ... certainly such man would lose his mind.

But the angel spoke to Mohammed through revelation; he heard the revelation, knew it by heart, refused or surprised at the start, then he carried out his task and conveyed the Quran to people.
That's it: no strangling or anything like that.
It is like what Abu abd-Allah heard also by inspiration: when the angel told him: you are the Mahdi, so carry out your duty.
No strangling or anything of this sort.
Abu abd-Allah at the start surprised and objected, but the angel continued telling him until he was convinced.

2- While in my personal opinion, I think the book of Revelation is not authentic.

3- About Moses and burning his mouth by a coal brand; nothing of that in the Quran, but the tradition told by our parents is not true, as I think ... how can an infant pick a brand before putting it in his mouth ... this is not logical.

In the Quran, God cast loveliness on the infant Moses: every one saw him, would love him .. and this is more logical and acceptable: the child is loved by all people, with his nice shape and innocence, and may be with his childish smiles ..

This thread concerns the Tanakh or old testament of Judaism,,,and the New testament of Christianity. do not infect it with your book. It has nothing to do with your religion.

 

[selfsame]

This thread concerns the Tanakh or old testament of Judaism,,,and the New testament of Christianity. do not infect it with your book. It has nothing to do with your religion.

Of course, compliance to you, sheikh of Al-Azhar :lol:

 

[Motar]

An angel made John the Evangelist eat a book (Revelation). Moses burned his mouth with burning coal.

Revelation 11:11 speaks to the content of the consumed book, DB. Isaiah 6:6,7 details the burning coal reference.

 

[darkbeaver]

"Then I asked the angel, 'What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?' Again I asked him, 'What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?' He replied, 'Do you not know what these are?' 'No, my lord,' I said. 'So he said, 'These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.” (Zechariah 4:11-14 NIV)

What do you think they mean "earth"? And what was the golden oil? And when did all this happen?

 

[selfsame]

Revelation 11:11 speaks to the content of the consumed book, DB. Isaiah 6:6,7 details the burning coal reference.

How could an infant of 3 months old pick up a burning coal with his hand or hands then carry it to his mouth?
Try to test this practically, then tell me.

 

[darkbeaver]

Revelation 11:11 speaks to the content of the consumed book, DB. Isaiah 6:6,7 details the burning coal reference.

Thankyou.

How could an infant of 3 months old pick up a burning coal with his hand or hands then carry it to his mouth?
Try to test this practically, then tell me.

He was a fast learner.

 

[selfsame]

Thankyou.

The thanks are to you, darkbeaver :lol:

Thankyou.

He was a fast learner.

Wouldn't the brand burn his hand? how could he carry it?

But in fact, God cast loveliness on the infant Moses: everyone saw him would love him, and be kind to him; so Pharaoh's daughter loved him, the servants loved him and the wife of Pharaoh (I think she was one of the Israelite) she loved him and supplicated Pharaoh to spare him so as they might take him as their son.

Quran 28: 9, which means:
{Said Pharaoh's wife, 'He will be a ‘source of delight and comfort’ to me and you [Pharaoh.] Slay him not; perchance he will profit us, or we will take him for a son.'
And they were not aware [that their destruction would be by his hands.] }

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

============================================================

I noticed also another point in the story of Moses in the Quran:
God told the mother of Moses by revelation, like the revelation to prophets, as for to suckle him, and if she fears for him, she might cast him in an ark or basket ... etc.
So if she does not fear for him, God will keep him with her: God is All-Mighty.

Quran 28: 7, which means:
{And We revealed to Moses’ mother [saying:] "Suckle him a and, when you fear for him b, then cast him into the River [Nile of Egypt.]
And fear not c nor grieve d;
[for surely] We shall [soon] restore him to you, and shall [in the future] make him [one] of [Our] messengers." e }
......................................................

a So she suckled him for three months.

b Lest Pharaoh may kill him. [The word in the aya in Arabic is if or when]

c For him lest he may be drowned.

d For leaving him.

e Therefore, she cast him in the River Nile, an oblong ‘papyrus basket’ coated with tar and pitch.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

 

[Ludlow]

The thanks are to you, darkbeaver :lol:



Wouldn't the brand burn his hand? how could he carry it?

But in fact, God cast loveliness on the infant Moses: everyone saw him would love him, and be kind to him; so Pharaoh's daughter loved him, the servants loved him and the wife of Pharaoh (I think she was one of the Israelite) she loved him and supplicated Pharaoh to spare him so as they might take him as their son.

Quran 28: 9, which means:
{Said Pharaoh's wife, 'He will be a ‘source of delight and comfort’ to me and you [Pharaoh.] Slay him not; perchance he will profit us, or we will take him for a son.'
And they were not aware [that their destruction would be by his hands.] }

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

============================================================

I noticed also another point in the story of Moses in the Quran:
God told the mother of Moses by revelation, like the revelation to prophets, as for to suckle him, and if she fears for him, she might cast him in an ark or basket ... etc.
So if she does not fear for him, God will keep him with her: God is All-Mighty.

Quran 28: 7, which means:
{And We revealed to Moses’ mother [saying:] "Suckle him a and, when you fear for him b, then cast him into the River [Nile of Egypt.]
And fear not c nor grieve d;
[for surely] We shall [soon] restore him to you, and shall [in the future] make him [one] of [Our] messengers." e }
......................................................

a So she suckled him for three months.

b Lest Pharaoh may kill him. [The word in the aya in Arabic is if or when]

c For him lest he may be drowned.

d For leaving him.

e Therefore, she cast him in the River Nile, an oblong ‘papyrus basket’ coated with tar and pitch.

The interpretation is by Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly.

I'll bet if you went to a guitar concerto you'd break out your trombone and start playing. You are so damn retarded and disrespectful and no sense of your surroundings. I truly believe after observing you that your religion should be called the religion of the retards.

 

[Motar]

What do you think they mean "earth"? And what was the golden oil? And when did all this happen?

Material world. Holy Spirit. Ancient Hebrew history - Babylonian captivity. Interesting how history repeats, DB.

How could an infant of 3 months old pick up a burning coal with his hand or hands then carry it to his mouth?
Try to test this practically, then tell me.

I have no explanation for this extra-biblical legend, SS.

 

[selfsame]

I'll bet if you went to a guitar concerto you'd break out your trombone and start playing. You are so damn retarded and disrespectful and no sense of your surroundings. I truly believe after observing you that your religion should be called the religion of the retards.

And what are you with your trivial words!

 

[Ludlow]

And what are you with your trivial words!

I know when to refrain Selfsame. You do not. You think your religion belong everywhere and it damn well doesn't.