A Eucatastrophe - Life WIth God

[Motar]

"The advent of Jesus Christ is what sets Christianity apart from other religions. We affirm that Christ is indeed Immanuel, God with us, and that in him the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. He is the image of the invisible God. And with Jesus an entirely different way of relating to God is revealed to us. Rather than stumbling in the darkness between forms of religion that are each a variation of fear and control, through Christ the lights are turned on and our attention is drawn to an entirely different vision - Life With God.

J. R. R. Tolkien, the author of The Lord of the Rings, often employed a story-telling device he called eucatastrophe. A catastrophe is an unexpected evil, but Tolkien added the Greek prefix eu - meaning "good" to express the unexpected appearance of goodness. He defined it as "the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with joy that brings you to tears." It has this effect on us "because it is a sudden glimpse of Truth" in which we "feel a sudden relief as if a major limb out of joint has suddenly snapped back." Repeatedly in his stories the eucatastrophe occurs just as all hope appears to be lost. It is the moment the eagles swooping for the rescue, the riders of Rohan arrive at the battle, or Gandalf the White appears with the breaking of day.

To use Tolkien's language, the coming of Jesus Christ was a eucatastrophe. He is the light that gives us a sudden glimpse of truth. Our humanly devised ways of relating to God that never seem to satisfy are revealed to be out of joint. But in Christ things suddenly snap into place, and the result is joy. His coming also shines a light onto a truth about the cosmos previously hidden from our sight. If you recall, each of the four popular postures has a different way of seeing the universe.

LIFE UNDER GOD sees the world as governed by the capricious will of God.
LIFE OVER GOD places immutable natural laws at the center.
LIFE FROM GOD assumes the world orbits around the self and its desires.
LIFE FOR GOD sees a divine mission at the core of all things."

Jethani, Skye. (2011) With: Reimagining the Way You Relate to God. Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson.

Which worldview best describes yours? How do you think the LIFE WITH GOD perspective might differ from the four common ones?

 

[darkbeaver]

How does Jesus set the modern Christian church apart from the other adherents of the Christ force extant thousands of years before he, Jesus, is purported to have lived? You will never understand the Christ force if you begin the study so late into the subject. That light was known five thousand years before the time of jesus, look for yourself every Bible story is repeated over and over again far back in recorded history.

 

[MHz]

"I got this far before I had this 'thought', Gos as mentioned in Ge:1:1 is the beginning and end as far as what goes on on the earth and in the heavens above from the start until they no longer exist. Chris is the alpha and omega of the Church as defined by the list in Re:20:4. He rules over that group for the last 1,000 yaers before the end comes as connected to God. There is a large difference between somebody who believes in God and somebody who says they are a Christian. (as that includes all Gentiles that ever lived since 33AD) Not all of them can relate something like the two verses below. The OT reference mentions prayer but the words on how to say a prayer is left out of the OT but Jesus gives the details in the NT.

De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

M't:6:5:
And when thou prayest,
thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are:
for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets,
that they may be seen of men.
Verily I say unto you,
They have their reward.
M't:6:6:
But thou,
when thou prayest,
enter into thy closet,
and when thou hast shut thy door,
pray to thy Father which is in secret;
and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
M't:6:7:
But when ye pray,
use not vain repetitions,
as the heathen do:
for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

M't:6:9:
After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.

Etc.

You need both before a prayer said during the last 3 1/2 years will actuall get a person some results that would fulfill the 'seeing is believing part that doubting Thomas was given.

 

[Cliffy]

What is god? Who is god? Whose god and which are you talking about? Is there a god? Do we or can we live without god? Is god separate from the Universe or is god everything? Is there life without god or is god just another name for Life? Is the Christian god the only god or is it just another image of everybody's god? Can a mere mortal comprehend what a god is or is god a human invention? Can anyone really truly say they know god or is it beyond human comprehension? Do Christians have the only handle on god, do they own it or are they just as confused as everybody else?
I could go on questioning in this manner but you get the point. Your question only brings an infinity of more questions. The existence of god or the non-existence of god is an individual belief. There is no one way, right way or wrong way for each individual to relate to the subject. It is all a matter of of how we relate to life. The concept of god is subjective not objective. The only difference between an atheist and a monotheist is the disbelief in one god out of thousands.

 

[Harikrish]

Be careful what you wish for. To know life with God, you can get an idea from what life with Jesus was like.

Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

John 14:9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?


If you read what Jesus actually said, you might be less surprised how dysfunctional he was. Jesus had total disregard for the family. He never mentioned his earthly father Joseph even once during his entire 30 years. Nor is he seen comforting his distraught parents. Here is a man desperately seeking attention only for himself and displaying deep character flaws.

Here are verses that show Jesus had serious issues. We know he was still unmarried at the age of 30, he was unemployed and surrounded himself with some unsavoury characters like his disciples, where Peter proved to be a compulsive liar denying Jesus not once but three times. The people found Peter and John uneducated illeterates and were astonished Jesus picked them to be his disciples.

But the next few verses suggests he was anti-family, a home breaker of sorts, someone who suffered from deep insecurities and needed to be accepted at any cost, even willing to breakup families by pitting them against each other.

Matthew 10:35 For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

 

[Cliffy]

How do you know Jesus said anything? Were you there at the time? What makes you think the bible is anything other than words written by men? Why is your holy book any better than any other holy book? Why do you think your spiritual experience is more real than someone else's? Do you really think your chances of redemption are better than someone who believes in a different religion? Which translation or interpretation of the bible do you adhere to ? Do you even know the history of who, when, where, why the bible was written? Why do you think you know better than others, what the bible says? Is the bible supposed to be taken litterally or metaphorically and allegorically? Is it an accurate history? Is your interpretation come from studying the words of the whole book or are you just parroting what others have told you it means?

It is a book, not the book. It was written by men who were fallible, just like you and me. If you don't know its origins, your faith is not only blind, it is unwarranted Knowledge that you have not worked for is not wisdom, it is just a bunch of useless information. The bible is a tool that points the way but it is not until you put it down and go out into the world and follow in the direction that it is pointing that you begin to acquire knowledge and is through the experiences of life along that path that you begin you gain wisdom. Until then you rare just farting in the wind.

 

[MHz]

120 years max, then the lease expires and the land of the enemy is your new home, the 'long house'.

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

Ge:6:3:
And the LORD said,
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

De:34:7:
And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died:
his eye was not dim,
nor his natural force abated.

If God caused the things at the tower of Babel to keep people from leaving the earth then 'He' is going to find a way to the 'other things' He has on 'the list'.

 

[damngrumpy]

See in many cases the Bible was still being written decades after the events took place.
The Bible has many chapters that were never included at all. There was a political power
struggle for the control of the Christian Faith and the four survivors of the conflict were
given their respective sections of the Bible Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. They had a lot
of differences that needed reconciliation. The Bible has been written by monks and others
to foster favor with their own positions over the centuries as well.
Pope Gregory is among the worst offenders and he even sold share to get into heaven.
you got a pass into heaven if you bought bricks for the church of Rome.
In addition Mary Magdalene was turned into a prostitute when many believe she was not.
In fact some say she was Jesus' wife can't have that can we.
The Bible is actually more about politics and the time of the Roman Empire than it was
about religion. Oh and Jesus never considered himself a Christian his intent was to reform
the Jewish faith

 

[Motar]

"The advent of Jesus Christ is what sets Christianity apart from other religions. We affirm that Christ is indeed Immanuel, God with us, and that in him the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. He is the image of the invisible God. And with Jesus an entirely different way of relating to God is revealed to us. Rather than stumbling in the darkness between forms of religion that are each a variation of fear and control, through Christ the lights are turned on and our attention is drawn to an entirely different vision - Life With God.

J. R. R. Tolkien, the author of The Lord of the Rings, often employed a story-telling device he called eucatastrophe. A catastrophe is an unexpected evil, but Tolkien added the Greek prefix eu - meaning "good" to express the unexpected appearance of goodness. He defined it as "the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with joy that brings you to tears." It has this effect on us "because it is a sudden glimpse of Truth" in which we "feel a sudden relief as if a major limb out of joint has suddenly snapped back." Repeatedly in his stories the eucatastrophe occurs just as all hope appears to be lost. It is the moment the eagles swooping for the rescue, the riders of Rohan arrive at the battle, or Gandalf the White appears with the breaking of day.

To use Tolkien's language, the coming of Jesus Christ was a eucatastrophe. He is the light that gives us a sudden glimpse of truth. Our humanly devised ways of relating to God that never seem to satisfy are revealed to be out of joint. But in Christ things suddenly snap into place, and the result is joy. His coming also shines a light onto a truth about the cosmos previously hidden from our sight. If you recall, each of the four popular postures has a different way of seeing the universe.

LIFE UNDER GOD sees the world as governed by the capricious will of God.
LIFE OVER GOD places immutable natural laws at the center.
LIFE FROM GOD assumes the world orbits around the self and its desires.
LIFE FOR GOD sees a divine mission at the core of all things."

Jethani, Skye. (2011) With: Reimagining the Way You Relate to God. Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson.

Which worldview best describes yours? How do you think the LIFE WITH GOD perspective might differ from the four common ones?

Are there any LOTR fans present? In your opinion, which LOTR character best embodies Christ? Why?

 

[Harikrish]

Get a red letter bible. It highlights the words actually spoken by Jesus. There are a lot of things said about Jesus and many claims made about Jesus appearing to the apostles after his resurrection. Both John and Paul claim Jesus appeared to them in a vision and revealed himself to them. But personal psychological experience such as hearing voices and seeing apparitions cannot be corroborated. They could be delusions or hallucinations suffered by the claimants.

Reading the words actually spoken by Jesus allows a better understanding of the man and what he was suffering from. The medical term 'messiah complex' is one such description of what was causing Jesus's delusions and why his messianic ambition cost him his life.

But does the Bible also help to understand the people who have turned a human tragedy into a religion and the crucifixion of Jesus for blaspheming into a human sacrifice for the atonement of the worlds sins. How did a local event like the crucifixion of Jesus who was tried, convicted and put to death for blasphemy implicate the whole world in his death?

Ironically it was the Jews that created the environment for the Jesus story. They gave us Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, Noah and the great flood. But lost the story of Jesus to the Hellenic Jews who created the early Christian creed that made Jesus a God and not a victim of religious bigotry.

So now we have the choice of a personal God in Jesus. The messianic ambition of Jesus continues to live on and even his return expected in his second coming. It is paradoxically the Gentile converts to Christianity that suffer from such nostalgia whereas the Jews have long buried the past incident of mistaken identity. Their unnecessary crucifixion of Jesus, a man suffering from delusions that might have easily been recognizable today, but religious zealotry concluded otherwise.

It was the Romans that mocked Jesus with the title king of the Jews and crucified him. It was the Romans who later under their Emperor Constantine resurrected Christianity and Jesus and made it the state religion. Was it not said. Render unto Cesar what is Cesar's and render unto God what is Gods.

Mark 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.


Remember it was Jesus that said not to preach to the Gentiles. But the Romans would have none of that and gave the world the human sacrifice they demanded to atone for their sins. So now we have both a barbaric form of torture to punish criminals the crucifixion and a human sacrifice for sinners all combined in one. It is a rather unsophisticated union of two contradictory narratives, but it has caught the fancy of a quarter of the worlds Christian population. Finally there is a religion even Gentiles and pagans can accept and not be Jewish at the same time. How great is that!!!!

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Get a red letter bible.

Can I spend the money on a couple of trashy spy novels instead?

 

[Motar]

How does Jesus set the modern Christian church apart from the other adherents of the Christ force extant thousands of years before he, Jesus, is purported to have lived? You will never understand the Christ force if you begin the study so late into the subject. That light was known five thousand years before the time of jesus, look for yourself every Bible story is repeated over and over again far back in recorded history.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomeit. There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) (John 1:1-15 NIV)

Agree, DB. The eternal, universal and spiritual "Christ force" precedes this material world which he made and incarnated.

"I got this far before I had this 'thought', Gos as mentioned in Ge:1:1 is the beginning and end as far as what goes on on the earth and in the heavens above from the start until they no longer exist. Chris is the alpha and omega of the Church as defined by the list in Re:20:4. He rules over that group for the last 1,000 yaers before the end comes as connected to God. There is a large difference between somebody who believes in God and somebody who says they are a Christian. (as that includes all Gentiles that ever lived since 33AD) Not all of them can relate something like the two verses below. The OT reference mentions prayer but the words on how to say a prayer is left out of the OT but Jesus gives the details in the NT.

You need both before a prayer said during the last 3 1/2 years will actuall get a person some results that would fulfill the 'seeing is believing part that doubting Thomas was given.

Agree, MHz. There is a profound gulf between "know about God" and "know God".

See in many cases the Bible was still being written decades after the events took place.
The Bible has many chapters that were never included at all. There was a political power
struggle for the control of the Christian Faith and the four survivors of the conflict were
given their respective sections of the Bible Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. They had a lot
of differences that needed reconciliation. The Bible has been written by monks and others
to foster favor with their own positions over the centuries as well.
Pope Gregory is among the worst offenders and he even sold share to get into heaven.
you got a pass into heaven if you bought bricks for the church of Rome.
In addition Mary Magdalene was turned into a prostitute when many believe she was not.
In fact some say she was Jesus' wife can't have that can we.
The Bible is actually more about politics and the time of the Roman Empire than it was
about religion. Oh and Jesus never considered himself a Christian his intent was to reform
the Jewish faith

"The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." (Acts 11:26b NIV)

Agree, dg. Jesus is not a Christian.

 

[Harikrish]

You cannot know God through the Bible. That was God revealing himself to the Jews. No one outside of Israel heard of the God of Abraham, Moses, David or all the prophets in the Bible. The bible is about the local beliefs of the Jews and Jesus was a Jew.

Are the Jews much different from other races? Is there some obvious reason God spent so many centuries with them, oblivious to the rest of the world. Did God have to wait for the printing press to be invented before the Bible could be made available to the rest of the world around 1500's. How is the world implicated in a local event that happened in Judea unannounced to the world....the crucifixion of Jesus or God himself.

 

[MHz]

Agree, MHz. There is a profound gulf between "know about God" and "know God".

It is easier than you expect, Ge:1-3 and Re:20-22 contains the beginning of this world according to God. That isn't much reading but the validity would be a long conversation once you start applying what we know today to Ge:1. It turns out that on page 1 God was giving us a lesson in powers of to based on the exit from the garden and the day of the cross being 4005 years later. I don't care who you are you cannot accidentally do that.
We did get a set of 'keys'. The vision and explanation in Da:7 and Re:14 tells you if the book is meant to be imagination or it is to be taken literally. The verse below gives NT readers authority to scurry around the OT writings and be assured they are as pristine as the NT is.

Lu:24:27:
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

De:4:27:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
De:4:28: And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.
De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Isa:28:9:
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk,
and drawn from the breasts.
Isa:28:10:
For precept must be upon precept,
precept upon precept;
line upon line,
line upon line;
here a little,
and there a little:

Isa:65:11:
But ye are they that forsake the LORD,
that forget my holy mountain,
that prepare a table for that troop,
and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

You can't accidentally have both of these reference the same thing.

 

[Harikrish]

The trials and tribulations of the Jewish people have been many. The enslavement of the Jews by the Egyptians, the destruction of their Temple and country by the Romans, the extermination of the Jews by Nazi Germany. None of this helped to spread Judaism which is the religion of the Jews. The religion God gave Abraham and Moses.

What has been advanced is what Rome decided to make universal and it was based on the order of the Roman Emperor Constantine who decreed a religion suitable for Rome and Christianity was made the state religion around 325 AD. If not for Constantine, Christianity would have remained a small sectarian Jewish religion.

Theses are irrefutable historical fact and not theological speculations.

 

[Twila]

The trials and tribulations of the Jewish people have been many. The enslavement of the Jews by the Egyptians, the destruction of their Temple and country by the Romans, the extermination of the Jews by Nazi Germany. None of this helped to spread Judaism which is the religion of the Jews. The religion God gave Abraham and Moses.

What has been advanced is what Rome decided to make universal and it was based on the order of the Roman Emperor Constantine who decreed a religion suitable for Rome and Christianity was made the state religion around 325 AD. If not for Constantine, Christianity would have remained a small sectarian Jewish religion.

Theses are irrefutable historical fact and not theological speculations.

Can you imagine if Caligula had decided? Wow...

 

[MHz]

You cannot know God through the Bible.

I'm going to not mention that the Torah is part of the Bible, so are the books of the Prophets. What was 'left out' is the thoughts and conclusions of the ones who 'understood' what it meant back then, and what is still preached today by some Jews, the ones who do not take the NT as having as much authority.
The question become one of did God leave some knowledge out of the minds of the 40 Scribes He used (in all). Daniel was certainly shy of understanding all of what he wrote down. Anybody with an e-bible and a copy of the 1611KJV can talk about prophecy and be sure they are using the most accurate version of the ancient texts. Understanding little pieces of information is not a Jewish only trait, nor is putting vast amounts of bits together into something that is easily understood by all that are exposed directly to it.

That was God revealing himself to the Jews.

Moses was the one who got the Torah in oral form and that was the standard until it was put into print during the exile into Babylon. Daniel and his 3 friends with guidance from angels. Time from when Adam until the 10 Commandments was based on 1,000 being one day. With the 10 Commandments a day became 24 hours and the 120 years from Ge:6 was applied to all who would be ruled by the 10 Commandments. They apply until the day the 7thy trumps sounds. On that day many will come out of the graves as in Eze:37 and Job:14. They come into a land that is riled by the same laws that existed for Adam and those are found in Re:21 and they are for am immortal sinless people which is what the whole House of Israel and the Church will be during the 1,000 years. The examination of the list in Re:20:4 explains how that works.

No one outside of Israel heard of the God of Abraham, Moses, David or all the prophets in the Bible.

True, Ne b was right with god by the time he died, Gentiles from 33AD have the same right and the same option and it is just as effective when used.

Da:4:37:
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth,
and his ways judgment:
and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

The bible is about the local beliefs of the Jews and Jesus was a Jew.

I'll concede that the Bible was written by Jewish Scribes, as such anybody brought to believe in that same God, the one true God, is a 'child' of theirs and as such should be treated like a brother by all Jews. I don't see that happening, nor is the usury based on the brother aspect being there. A wrong that should be rightened.

Are the Jews much different from other races?

No they go the land of the enemy, same as all people.

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

M't:2:16:
Then Herod,
when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth,
and sent forth,
and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem,
and in all the coasts thereof,
from two years old and under,
according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
M't:2:17:
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet,
saying,
M't:2:18:
In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation,
and weeping,
and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
and would not be comforted,
because they are not.

Jer:31:15:
Thus saith the LORD;
A voice was heard in Ramah,
lamentation,
and bitter weeping;
Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children,
because they were not.
Jer:31:16:
Thus saith the LORD;
Refrain thy voice from weeping,
and thine eyes from tears:
for thy work shall be rewarded,
saith the LORD;
and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Jer:31:17:
And there is hope in thine end,
saith the LORD,
that thy children shall come again to their own border.

Is there some obvious reason God spent so many centuries with them, oblivious to the rest of the world.

The scattering in 70 was to give them time to tell the Gentiles about God, taking the temple down was so it couldn't be used in the tent verse from Daniel:11. The abomination in that chapter is a false throne, same thing the image is in in Re:13. Points like that aren't readily accepted by the Jews I have chatted with.

Did God have to wait for the printing press to be invented before the Bible could be made available to the rest of the world around 1500's.

It would have been done faster if time out for printing money was removed. lol

How is the world implicated in a local event that happened in Judea unannounced to the world....the crucifixion of Jesus or God himself.

That was the completion of the bruise to the heel from Ge:3:15, the other bruise is 'different' and it is the Gentiles that are under 'pressure'. That's fine, you can't finish the race without that becoming reality.

Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:
and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.


Jer:25:32:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.

 

[Motar]

You cannot know God through the Bible. That was God revealing himself to the Jews. No one outside of Israel heard of the God of Abraham, Moses, David or all the prophets in the Bible. The bible is about the local beliefs of the Jews and Jesus was a Jew. Are the Jews much different from other races? Is there some obvious reason God spent so many centuries with them, oblivious to the rest of the world. Did God have to wait for the printing press to be invented before the Bible could be made available to the rest of the world around 1500's. How is the world implicated in a local event that happened in Judea unannounced to the world....the crucifixion of Jesus or God himself.

The Bible is one method of self-revelation by God. Creation, Israel, archaeology, source texts, Jesus Christ and the Church are others. "Knowing about God" and "knowing God" are two different things:

"So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him ... 'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:16,39-40 NIV)

 

[Harikrish]

The Bible is one method of self-revelation by God. Creation, Israel, archaeology, source texts, Jesus Christ and the Church are others. "Knowing about God" and "knowing God" are two different things:

"So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him ... 'You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:16,39-40 NIV)

Should science be considered another method of self-revelation by God? Scientists have abandoned the search for evidence leading to the exodus after a century of archeological expeditions. Scientists are convince Noah's flood was not a global event but a local one.


From the Apologetic Press.

More Americans are moving toward an interpretation of the Bible as a book of fables, history, and moral precepts. ...Attempts at demythologizing the Bible that have been ongoing in the academy for years seem to be moving more and more from the classroom to the pews.... As recently as 1963, two persons in three viewed the Bible as the actual word of God, to be taken literally, word for word. Today, only one person in three still holds to that interpretation (1999, p. 36).

 

[Motar]

Should science be considered another method of self-revelation by God?

Absolutely.