Rational Faith

[Motar]

In 2007, Dr. Francis S. Collins penned The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, in which he puts forward his argument for the integration of faith and logic. Prior to his book, in a 2004 PBS interview, Collins discussed his conversion from atheism to faith while in medical school as he encountered the suffering of those afflicted with serious illness. 'They had terrible diseases from which they were probably not going to escape, and yet instead of railing at God, they seemed to lean on their faith as a source of great comfort and reassurance.' said Collins. 'They weren't, somehow, perceiving it as the really awful thing that it seemed to me to be. And that was interesting and puzzling and unsettling.'

Collins said his inquiry led him to the realization that he had 'made a decision to reject any faith view of the world without ever really knowing what it was that I had rejected.' 'And that worried me. As a scientist, you’re not supposed to make decisions without the data,' he said. 'It was pretty clear I hadn’t done any data collecting here about what these faiths stood for.'

Collins’s conversion was not instantaneous. He came to his 'faith is rational' conclusion after many painful months of resistance and ambivalence. 'I didn’t want this conclusion. I was very happy with the idea that God didn’t exist, and had no interest in me,' Collins said. 'And yet at the same time, I could not turn away. I had to keep turning those pages. I had to keep trying to understand this. I had to see where it led." NIH Director Francis S. Collins: Faith a Conclusion Arrived at Through Rational Thought

Who is Dr. Francis S. Collins? What is rational faith? How does one integrate reason and belief?

 

[L Gilbert]

Interesting. However, after watching the process a friend went through as he was dying. I can think of a couple questions: why would a loving god allow such a good man to contract HIV (bad blood transfusion after falling through a window and getting a helluva gash in his forearm) and after trying every remedy he could find, why wouldn't he try prayer and stuff just out of sheer desperation? Well, he did contract it and did die, but "God works in mysterious ways, right"? Yeah, mysterious ways such as in anger, jealousy, and a pile of other human traits. It's a god, why wouldn't it have its own traits?

See, stuff like this just raises more questions in my mind, most of which I keep asking those people "in the know" and they all reach for the Bible and all begin this annoying habit of circular reasoning.

 

[cj44]

Who is Dr. Francis S. Collins? What is rational faith? How does one integrate reason and belief?

The doctor looks to be a physician & scientist. Rational faith is belief based on logic and reason. I think the integration happens when experience suggests something more than what is supposedly known.

Gilbert, would you be able to believe in God without having all the answers? Do all our questions have to be answered in order to believe in God and also determine what to believe about him?

 

[El Barto]

Isn't the title an oxymoron?

 

[cj44]

Isn't the title an oxymoron?

Methinks that is not the case. When one encounters God, a new, undeniable evidence presents itself.

 

[Motar]

Interesting. However, after watching the process a friend went through as he was dying. I can think of a couple questions: why would a loving god allow such a good man to contract HIV (bad blood transfusion after falling through a window and getting a helluva gash in his forearm) and after trying every remedy he could find, why wouldn't he try prayer and stuff just out of sheer desperation? Well, he did contract it and did die, but "God works in mysterious ways, right"? Yeah, mysterious ways such as in anger, jealousy, and a pile of other human traits. It's a god, why wouldn't it have its own traits?

See, stuff like this just raises more questions in my mind, most of which I keep asking those people "in the know" and they all reach for the Bible and all begin this annoying habit of circular reasoning.

What is your profession, LG?

 

[gerryh]

Methinks that is not the case. When one encounters God, a new, undeniable evidence presents itself.

Unfortunately, it's not only the atheists that question the reality of that encounter. Other Christians also question it.

 

[L Gilbert]

Gilbert, would you be able to believe in God without having all the answers? Do all our questions have to be answered in order to believe in God and also determine what to believe about him?

Just a handful of answers would cause me to take notice, but I haven't encountered any answers that I couldn't rebut.

Methinks that is not the case. When one encounters God, a new, undeniable evidence presents itself.

I haven't found anyone that has produced evidence. And that includes 2 RCC priests and an Anglican priest.

What is your profession, LG?

Retired from firefighting and now work part time at my hobby of heavy machine operating and repair.

 

[Liberalman]

What came first the Conservative politician or the religious fanatic? Only a scientist knows.

 

[cj44]

Unfortunately, it's not only the atheists that question the reality of that encounter. Other Christians also question it.

As it should be. Heretics and false prophets abound. If someone should declare they flew on the back of an ostrich to Jupiter and there spoke with God, we should all question that individual's testimony.

 

[El Barto]

Any belief that leads to bigotry and fear is irrational

 

[cj44]

Just a handful of answers would cause me to take notice, but I haven't encountered any answers that I couldn't rebut.

I haven't found anyone that has produced evidence. And that includes 2 RCC priests and an Anglican priest.

Retired from firefighting and now work part time at my hobby of heavy machine operating and repair.

Glibert - I don't think you will find a person that is able to produce the evidence. Rather, it is God who produces the evidence in an individual's heart. I know that sounds like a lot of sap. I don't think spiritual evidence resembles physical evidence or the laws of nature.

Any belief that leads to bigotry and fear is irrational

No argument there, El Barto.

 

[gerryh]

As it should be. Heretics and false prophets abound. If someone should declare they flew on the back of an ostrich to Jupiter and there spoke with God, we should all question that individual's testimony.

Agreed, with the Bible being full of them, and the weak minded lapping it up like sweet mothers milk.

 

[lone wolf]

It's not lapping it up that gets me. It's they who interpret for their own purposes then brand folk who get something else from the same passages as heretics who make farce of Faith.

 

[L Gilbert]

Glibert - I don't think you will find a person that is able to produce the evidence. Rather, it is God who produces the evidence in an individual's heart. I know that sounds like a lot of sap. I don't think spiritual evidence resembles physical evidence or the laws of nature.

So it follows unnatural laws or no laws at all; the laws of imagination. I really do see the need for faith in order to believe in this god because there is a complete lack of natural evidence and only an iffy bit of unnatural evidence. My understanding of evidence doesn't allow for the latter, however. Evidence in my opinion should be unbiased, objective, demonstrable, repeatable, and not contradictory to known laws of the universe.

 

[Nuggler]

Interesting. However, after watching the process a friend went through as he was dying. I can think of a couple questions: why would a loving god allow such a good man to contract HIV (bad blood transfusion after falling through a window and getting a helluva gash in his forearm) and after trying every remedy he could find, why wouldn't he try prayer and stuff just out of sheer desperation? Well, he did contract it and did die, but "God works in mysterious ways, right"? Yeah, mysterious ways such as in anger, jealousy, and a pile of other human traits. It's a god, why wouldn't it have its own traits?

See, stuff like this just raises more questions in my mind, most of which I keep asking those people "in the know" and they all reach for the Bible and all begin this annoying habit of circular reasoning.

...................And chest beating. really annoying.



Sorry bout your friend, LG. Bullshyte baffles brains, but only if they want to be baffled.


the optimal answer is always" can't question the word of god". As if anyone had an inside track into the realm of mystical beings.

 

[Motar]

Interesting. However, after watching the process a friend went through as he was dying. I can think of a couple questions: why would a loving god allow such a good man to contract HIV (bad blood transfusion after falling through a window and getting a helluva gash in his forearm) and after trying every remedy he could find, why wouldn't he try prayer and stuff just out of sheer desperation? Well, he did contract it and did die, but "God works in mysterious ways, right"? Yeah, mysterious ways such as in anger, jealousy, and a pile of other human traits. It's a god, why wouldn't it have its own traits? See, stuff like this just raises more questions in my mind, most of which I keep asking those people "in the know" and they all reach for the Bible and all begin this annoying habit of circular reasoning.

To micro-paraphrase your question as a statement, LG, "There can be no God since people die from terminal illnesses." Is that right? So, does it follow then that there can be no firefighters since people perish in fires?

 

[L Gilbert]

To micro-paraphrase your question as a statement, LG, "There can be no God since people die from terminal illnesses." Is that right? So, does it follow then that there can be no firefighters since people perish in fires?

Not quite. Paraphrasing what I said is that this loving god allows such misery in diseases and horrible death and yet the faithful use that as evidence. It doesn't fly. On the other hand, firefighters also save lives, and there is a preponderance of evidence supporting that.

 

[Motar]

Not quite. Paraphrasing what I said is that this loving god allows such misery in diseases and horrible death and yet the faithful use that as evidence. It doesn't fly. On the other hand, firefighters also save lives, and there is a preponderance of evidence supporting that.

The three classic logical God objections:
1) God is nonexistent
2) God is incompetent
3) God is uncaring

You seem to be leaning towards the "God is uncaring" objection, LG, questioning God's goodness. (This position assumes that God exists and is capable of intervening in misery and horror, but chooses to do nothing). The assumption is that God is evil or immoral.

Allowing that firefighters do exist, can they be incompetent (not know what to do or how to do it) and/or immoral (not willing to do it )?

 

[L Gilbert]

The three classic logical God objections:
1) God is nonexistent
2) God is incompetent
3) God is uncaring

You seem to be leaning towards the "God is uncaring" objection, LG, questioning God's goodness. (This position assumes that God exists and is capable of intervening in misery and horror, but chooses to do nothing). The assumption is that God is evil or immoral.

All 3 objections actually, plus the objection that according to the book and its proponents, this god has human traits such as immaturity, temperamental, maliciousness, is knowable, yet unknowable. In a word, the objection is that the existence is irrational.
A thought just popped up; are there verses in the OT showing anything other than nasty actions via this god?

Allowing that firefighters do exist, can they be incompetent (not know what to do or how to do it) and/or immoral (not willing to do it )?

Of course, but they were given other jobs if they were unable to perform a particular task or else they followed orders, even if they disliked their assignment.