Moral Progress or Corruption

[Motar]

"(W)e have ambivalence about whether we are on a trajectory of moral progress or a trajectory of moral corruption. We have some sense that things are always going downhill and that the last generation was better than this generation. We also have a sense that development in economics and science and technology brings moral progress. I don’t think people are as confident about that at this moment. I think there’s a lot of anxiety about our moral condition right now."

(Ruth W. Grant, Professor of Political Science and Philosophy and a senior fellow at the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University.)

Is humanity on a trajectory of moral progress or corruption?
Can you support your opinion with historical examples?
To what do you attribute the moral trajectory?

 

[Zipperfish]

The apparent dichotomy of the beliefs of moral progress and moral corruption are in fact due to a loss of moral unity, in my opinion. Morals--American morals, Canadian morals--used to be more universal. People didn't snicker when Superman said he stood for "Truth, Justice and the American Way."

Moral behaviour, in a largely Christian nation, was inviolable, ancient and codified. What's more, even thinking immorally was a sin, as God could read your thoughts. With the general secularization of society due to technological progress, free thinking, multiculturalsim, educaiton, global village, yadda yadda yadda we have a much more flexible moral arrangement now. It would be wrong to say that morla relatavism is absolute (for instance, as a whole, both the political left and right are outraged by pointless cruelty against helpless victims--something the Romans had no difficulty with whatsoever), we are much more flexible on morals than at any time in the recent past.

This divergence from a previous moral unity creates those that want the comfort and security of the past with those that want the promise of progress for the future.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

"(W)e have ambivalence about whether we are on a trajectory of moral progress or a trajectory of moral corruption. We have some sense that things are always going downhill and that the last generation was better than this generation. We also have a sense that development in economics and science and technology brings moral progress. I don’t think people are as confident about that at this moment. I think there’s a lot of anxiety about our moral condition right now."

(Ruth W. Grant, Professor of Political Science and Philosophy and a senior fellow at the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University.)

Is humanity on a trajectory of moral progress or corruption?
Can you support your opinion with historical examples?
To what do you attribute the moral trajectory?

Corruption, please. It's less damaging than moral progress. Way more fun too.

 

[darkbeaver]

Is humanity on a trajectory of moral progress or corruption?

Morality flows in a sign wave.

Can you support your opinion with historical examples?

Babylon, Carthage, Israel The British Empire all of them experienced that forward wave, of high and low morality.

To what do you attribute the moral trajectory?

Today that would be the addiction to material wealth and power. That is as constant as the wave itself.

 

[Motar]

The apparent dichotomy of the beliefs of moral progress and moral corruption are in fact due to a loss of moral unity....This divergence from a previous moral unity creates those that want the comfort and security of the past with those that want the promise of progress for the future.

By moral unity, Zip, are you alluding to common moral standards or laws?

 

[cj44]

As C.S. Lewis said, "In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. we laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful." At current, I have no historical examples at my fingertips, but I believe there has been an ebb & flo throughout societies/cultures over time. However, now, I believe we are no longer seeing a downhill or uphill direction. Now, we see, as Lewis describes in his book The Abolition of Man (written in 1943) "men without chests". Empathy and sentiment are no longer being taught. Emotion in itself is a judgement and had those boys who were engaging in the "knock -out game" had empathy, the emotion/their heart would have stopped them from even contemplating such a game. This is worse than being on a moral decline. We are becoming evil.

 

[Motar]

As C.S. Lewis said, "In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. we laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful." At current, I have no historical examples at my fingertips, but I believe there has been an ebb & flo throughout societies/cultures over time. However, now, I believe we are no longer seeing a downhill or uphill direction. Now, we see, as Lewis describes in his book The Abolition of Man (written in 1943) "men without chests". Empathy and sentiment are no longer being taught. Emotion in itself is a judgement and had those boys who were engaging in the "knock -out game" had empathy, the emotion/their heart would have stopped them from even contemplating such a game. This is worse than being on a moral decline. We are becoming evil.

Interesting, cj, that you should reference the "knock-out game". This is the very abomination that inspired me to start this discussion. I thought of Paul's words to the Romans when he said, "they invent ways of doing evil."

I agree that societies move through stages of moral progress and corruption. Tytler's Cycle is one model that attempts to map out the moral flow of society within a democracy.
Although I can appreciate the moral ebb and flow of humanity, I think the model should be a helix that is cycling downward rather than a circle that repeats like Tytler's. In other words, as a whole, humanity is in a death spiral, morally speaking.

 

[cj44]

Well Said. Death Spiral.

 

[Sal]

Although I can appreciate the moral ebb and flow of humanity, I think the model should be a helix that is cycling downward rather than a circle that repeats like Tytler's. In other words, as a whole, humanity is in a death spiral, morally speaking.

I agree and money is the root of all evil. If we do not change our capitalistic nature quickly, we in the west are heading down a very very bad road.

 

[Motar]

I agree and money is the root of all evil. If we do not change our capitalistic nature quickly, we in the west are heading down a very very bad road.

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil..." (1 Timothy 6:10a NIV)

 

[Liberalman]

"(W)e have ambivalence about whether we are on a trajectory of moral progress or a trajectory of moral corruption. We have some sense that things are always going downhill and that the last generation was better than this generation. We also have a sense that development in economics and science and technology brings moral progress. I don’t think people are as confident about that at this moment. I think there’s a lot of anxiety about our moral condition right now."

(Ruth W. Grant, Professor of Political Science and Philosophy and a senior fellow at the Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University.)

Is humanity on a trajectory of moral progress or corruption?
Can you support your opinion with historical examples?
To what do you attribute the moral trajectory?

Duke University did studies on ESP and the paranormal while on LSD so can anyone trust a report or any prof from that university?

 

[Motar]

I am reminded of Nebuchadnezzar's dream:

“Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:31-35 NIV)

And Daniel's interpretation:

"Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay." (Daniel 2:37-43 NIV)

Each succeeding kingdom is depicted as inferior in substance and consequently less stable in nature. This depicts the history of human civilization, which is cycling downwards spiritually and morally.

 

[cj44]

I agree and money is the root of all evil. If we do not change our capitalistic nature quickly, we in the west are heading down a very very bad road.

Sal! So, rather trust private citizens - of the people, by the people, for the people - you would rather hand your freedom & way of life over to the state. Have we learned nothing from history. I would hope that people would stop condemning capitalism. I'll keep my freedom and capitailistic ways. I do hope you are not suggesting trusting in the state. Holy Cow! ....of the state, by the state, for the state????? Really??????? Sure, we can trust the state. Give them all the control. Good Grief!
Still like the blue squiggly.

 

[Motar]

Duke University did studies on ESP and the paranormal while on LSD so can anyone trust a report or any prof from that university?

Lib, isn't this an "ad hominem" argument you're making?

 

[Zipperfish]

By moral unity, Zip, are you alluding to common moral standards or laws?

Yes. Society was much less multicultural, so mores were overwhelmingly Christian. I'm not saying that that was good or bad, just that it was common.

 

[Liberalman]

Lib, isn't this an "ad hominem" argument you're making?

no way

 

[Motar]

Yes. Society was much less multicultural, so mores were overwhelmingly Christian. I'm not saying that that was good or bad, just that it was common.

I agree, Zip. In terms of moral trajectory, society today is definitely moving in a post-Christian direction.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Interesting, cj, that you should reference the "knock-out game". This is the very abomination that inspired me to start this discussion. I thought of Paul's words to the Romans when he said, "they invent ways of doing evil."

I agree that societies move through stages of moral progress and corruption. Tytler's Cycle is one model that attempts to map out the moral flow of society within a democracy.
Although I can appreciate the moral ebb and flow of humanity, I think the model should be a helix that is cycling downward rather than a circle that repeats like Tytler's. In other words, as a whole, humanity is in a death spiral, morally speaking.

At what point in the past do you think humanity was more moral than it is now?

 

[Sal]

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil..." (1 Timothy 6:10a NIV)

it is what people will do to others in order to acquire it that causes problems.

Sal! So, rather trust private citizens - of the people, by the people, for the people - you would rather hand your freedom & way of life over to the state. Have we learned nothing from history. I would hope that people would stop condemning capitalism. I'll keep my freedom and capitailistic ways. I do hope you are not suggesting trusting in the state. Holy Cow! ....of the state, by the state, for the state????? Really??????? Sure, we can trust the state. Give them all the control. Good Grief!
Still like the blue squiggly.

LOL that blue squiggly is interesting isn't it?

Private citizens are not corporations cj... you seem to have developed a whole philosophy and attributed it to me. A tad disengenous no? Big leaps and assumptions and conclusions. In fact you seem more certain of what I think than I am.

Wow this site is leaning so far right these days it's tipping...lol. You are maybe the second or third person around here who seems to think that the way the world is currently functioning economically is the only answer. Capitalism is the only answer even though it is destroying the middle class, it is the only way to do things or we will end up like communist China. cj think out of the box man... think BIG, use your intelligence that god has given you.

There is a child of 15 now at the Perimeter Institute in my city. His advice is to stop learning and start thinking. Quite brilliant don't you think? Stop sucking in what you are being told, and have been taught and think out of the box. I like that idea. Kids like him are gonna save the world. Kids like him they are gifts.

I am not suggesting anything. I merely examining the terrible mess we are in and wondering how the world will right itself...for it will as it always does.

 

[Motar]

At what point in the past do you think humanity was more moral than it is now?

Every point, Tbones.