I'm conflicted about the Bible. Will you discuss it with me?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

Yes, word games. I'm saying I believe theism to be false, which does not necessarily mean I believe atheism to be true (although I do), there are other alternatives, like deism. Your error is in calling it a belief system, which is akin to calling disbelieving in unicorns a belief system. It's not, it's just a rejection of a particular claim, e.g. the claim that unicorns exist, or the claim that there's a supernatural entity that has some interest in us. It may be part of a particular world view, but it's not in itself a system of beliefs, it's a rejection of one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

Greetings everyone. I found this forum through a web search. I'm brand new here. I would describe myself as a "believer", but I'd be reluctant to call myself a "Christian." There are things in the Bible that I cannot help but believe. However, there are also things in the Bible that I simply cannot reconcile.

I would welcome an honest, civil discussion of the Bible in a general sense. I'm not as interested in doctrinal views as I am in general issues of faith and interpretation. If you'd be willing to engage in an open dialogue of this nature, please respond with your comments.

Thank you.

Quote: Originally Posted by In Between Man

This is the wrong place to seek answers about the bible friend. The atheists, false-Christians and pagans only want to lead you down a path to nowhere. Since there is not one contradiction in the bible, you shouldn't have any problem "reconciling" beliefs. If you have a hard time believing for example that hell is a physical place, then it's only because you "don't want" there to be a hell, so it's easier and more convenient to hang onto to the intellectual obstacle "why would God send people to eternal punishment?".

It sounds like God is doing his work of salvation in you, and he's "knocking on the door of your heart". Answer the knock. Repent, trust Jesus for forgiveness, ask him to fill your life, find a full gospel church to attend, read your bible daily and obey it.



It's a belief system. To deny one set of beliefs is to affirm another.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Ya, the false Christians like us evil Catholics, right alley?

Quote: Originally Posted by In Between Man

It's holding the premise of atheism to be objectively true that makes it a belief. But words like "belief" and "faith" are dirty words in atheism because you don't want to admit you have them. Rather it's because of intellectual arrogance that atheists say "it's because of science, logic and reason that we've concluded atheism to be true". You hold your philosophy to be true, but at same time you deny holding it to be true is a belief, when by the very definition that's what a belief is. Talk about playing word games!

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

Well, the confliction continues, and so does the frustration.

I've been through my "atheist" phase. It didn't stick. I've explained why as best I know how. Just no way I can accept that. Nevertheless, I still welcome your thoughts.

I do believe in a creator. I do believe the Bible is more than a compilation of writings. I do believe Christianity transcends all other religions. Life does not begin at birth; why assume that it ends at death.

I've attempted to offer several sample topics that continue to pose a conflict with my reasoning as a "believer." The creation story, the flood, Hell, Christ, and the typical Christian mindset. I have other conflicts, too, but I threw these out there as conversation starters.

Thus far, no one has responded to my specific conflicts. I'm not here to provoke anyone, nor can I be provoked. I won't allow it, because I'm above that. I won't attack anyone here, and I'll ignore your attacks. I'm a thinking man. I do not participate in verbal food fights.

So, once again I am soliciting feedback from any mature, civilized Christian who is willing to read what I've posted, examine my concerns, and respond with a desire to explore the issues in a meaningful way.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

There are a number of reasons why you are conflicted and the ones you mention would indicate that although you believe the bible is special there is too many things in it that are unbelievable. So, has it ever occurred to you to read the bible as metaphor and allegory instead of literal? It was never meant to be taken literally. If you listen to fundamentalists you are bound to get confused because they really don't understand the purpose for it being written the way it is. Taken literally, it is no more than a fairy tale.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

One thing I've noticed all these Bible thumpers have in common is their rigidity, they just keep hammering away at the same thing. Intelligent people consider other's views and fine tune their opinions over time to become better informed and open to learning something.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

Since only a minor percent of mankind is supposed to survive the judgment does that not fit in 'properly' compared to most agreeing on what it said and then losing that faith just before the end so the ratio can be fulfilled. It would seem to be 'kinder' to have most in confusion and increase that number to fit the final prophecised ratio.


Would saying 'freezing rain at higher elevations' cure the water/gravity conflict in that the 'rain at higher elevations' stayed there for 150 days after the rain stopped? How much fine tuning can 24 passages give to the term 'day of the Lord'?

Ge:7:20:
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;
and the mountains were covered.

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

So, once again I am soliciting feedback from any mature, civilized Christian who is willing to read what I've posted, examine my concerns, and respond with a desire to explore the issues in a meaningful way.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Classic example of literalists confusing the issue. The amount of mental gymnastics necessary to justify a literalist belief are astronomical. Mhz is a gold metalist.

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

There's only so much water....

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

There are a number of reasons why you are conflicted and the ones you mention would indicate that although you believe the bible is special there is too many things in it that are unbelievable. So, has it ever occurred to you to read the bible as metaphor and allegory instead of literal? It was never meant to be taken literally. If you listen to fundamentalists you are bound to get confused because they really don't understand the purpose for it being written the way it is. Taken literally, it is no more than a fairy tale.

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

I agree that much of the Bible is picturesque language, but I'm not convinced that all of it is. For instance, an entire linage of people is carefully detailed throughout the Bible. How do we dismiss that? Do we assume the entire lineage is symbolic? And what about all the geography that's mentioned? Even some archeology suggests a literal accuracy regarding many people and places mentioned in the Bible.

I agree that it can't all be literal, but it's hard to assume that it's all symbolic.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

Goldilocks and the Three Bears wasn't all symbolic either.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

Goldilocks and the Three Bears wasn't all symbolic either.

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

I've seen bears!

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

See, this is an example of the frustration. I offered a serious, practical conflict which is difficult to resolve. You simply respond with something about Goldilocks.

It's difficult to find people who have the intellect or the sincerity for a serious discussion. Very frustrating. My search continues.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

Since only a minor percent of mankind is supposed to survive the judgment does that not fit in 'properly' compared to most agreeing on what it said and then losing that faith just before the end so the ratio can be fulfilled. It would seem to be 'kinder' to have most in confusion and increase that number to fit the final prophecised ratio.


Would saying 'freezing rain at higher elevations' cure the water/gravity conflict in that the 'rain at higher elevations' stayed there for 150 days after the rain stopped? How much fine tuning can 24 passages give to the term 'day of the Lord'?

Ge:7:20:
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;
and the mountains were covered.

Quote: Originally Posted by Spade

Why would you expect different, if you fail to address the issues people raise? You simply want confirmation, not intelligent discourse. Your whining is dishonest.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

And I've seen porridge!



Quite often complex problems can be resolved by taking a look at simple comparisons!

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

What issue did I fail to address?

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

The Bible traces human lineage all the way back to Adam. So, are you saying that the lineage was real or symbolic? Can you understand what I'm asking?

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

The Bible traces human lineage all the way back to Adam. So, are you saying that the lineage was real or symbolic? Can you understand what I'm asking?

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

I agree that much of the Bible is picturesque language, but I'm not convinced that all of it is. For instance, an entire linage of people is carefully detailed throughout the Bible. How do we dismiss that? Do we assume the entire lineage is symbolic? And what about all the geography that's mentioned? Even some archeology suggests a literal accuracy regarding many people and places mentioned in the Bible.

I agree that it can't all be literal, but it's hard to assume that it's all symbolic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Conflicted

I agree that much of the Bible is picturesque language, but I'm not convinced that all of it is. For instance, an entire linage of people is carefully detailed throughout the Bible. How do we dismiss that? Do we assume the entire lineage is symbolic? And what about all the geography that's mentioned? Even some archeology suggests a literal accuracy regarding many people and places mentioned in the Bible.

I agree that it can't all be literal, but it's hard to assume that it's all symbolic.

Quote: Originally Posted by MHz

Saying it 'snowed' is enough to confuse you? Could you survive today if it started snowing and 40 days later it was 22ft deep and stayed that way for another 150 days before it started to melt that somebody could survive. Not even if they could prepare for it.