Neocons Blunder In Lybia

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
137
63
Why can't this government just get it's act together? We shouldn't have to rely on other countries to do what our government should have well in hand.

OTTAWA—Canada’s troubled Libyan evacuation plan hit more snags on Friday.

One plane flew out empty. A Foreign Affairs advisory told Canadians not to go to the Tripoli airport, even as a second plane was en route.

There were reports that Canadians were making their own ways out, by air, sea and land. A Foreign Affairs tally of evacuees came close to the number of people who had originally said they wanted out of the unstable country.

When asked by the CBC how many Canadian citizens they had evacuated a Foreign Affairs spokesperson said the “number currently stands at zero.”

“[My understanding is] that all of our citizens have found their own way out, through the good graces of our allies,” the spokesperson told the CBC.

Although the United States pulled out its diplomats and closed its embassy, the Canadians stayed put.

“The embassy in Tripoli continues to offer emergency consular services to Canadians,” a Foreign Affairs spokesman said in an email.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay blamed confusion in Tripoli for the empty plane incident.

“That has to do with co-ordination on the ground, ensuring that people are aware that an exit is available to them,” he said.

“We’re trying to coordinate that through the Department of Foreign Affairs and through other countries.”

Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Canada and its allies are willing to carry each other’s citizens.

“When a plane of ours arrives, obviously, we first board Canadians,” he said. “If we still have room, we board others — and that’s what all countries do. So we are taking out each other’s (evacuees) if we have the possibility of doing so.

“Many of the Canadians had left on an earlier, or earlier, flights.”

He said evacuation efforts will continue.

“We will continue to work to try and get those out who are prepared to leave.”

Even as a second chartered plane was dispatched from Amman, Foreign Affairs was urging Canadians through its website not to try to make it to Tripoli’s overwhelmed airport:

“Canadians who are not already at Tripoli International Airport should not attempt to reach it as the situation at the airport is extremely chaotic.”

Foreign Affairs didn’t responded to an email asking for an explanation of how people were to be evacuated if they are warned away from the airport.

The government insists that getting Canadians to safety remains the priority.

“Our diplomats are working extremely hard to accomplish this and, obviously, coordinating their efforts with their international counterparts,” Harper said.

The airport at Benghazi, an eastern Libyan city which appears to be under rebel control, is closed and the Canadian government is still trying to figure out how to get Canadians out of the region.

Canadians who have escaped so far went out on an American-hired ferry and planes brought in by various allies.

Some had chilling stories. Nova Scotia oil worker Glen Sutherland told his family that armed rebels attacked the oil rig where he was working and set it ablaze.

Sutherland and two co-workers fled into the desert, made their way to Tripoli and then to Malta.

“Glen made it out and is resting but he was completely exhausted when we were talking to him,” his father Gary Sutherland said from his home in Coldbrook, N.S. “I guess he was up for quite a few days.”

Sutherland said his son didn’t provide a lot of detail.

“The challenge remains getting landing slots in Tripoli,” MacKay said.

“We’re working in close collaboration with a number of countries to coordinate either commercial aircraft or the landing of a military aircraft.”

Harper spoke on Thursday with British Prime Minister David Cameron and discussed their mutually “grave concern” about the violence in Libya, the Prime Minister’s Office said in a statement.

“The two prime ministers expressed their grave concern about deeply disturbing actions of the Gadhafi regime in suppressing and attacking its own citizens. They agreed to remain in close touch and to work hand-in-glove, both in terms of helping evacuate their nationals and others from Libya, and in finding ways to promote peace and democracy in that country and the region at large.”

Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon is urging all Canadians to leave the country as it slides toward a civil war pitting citizen protesters and parts of the military against hard-line supporters of Moammar Gadhafi.

Gadhafi urged his partisans to defend the country, while his son Seif al-Islam Gadhafi vowed that the family will “live and die in Libya.”

Cannon said the situation is going downhill.

“The situation in Libya is very quickly changing and continues to become more dangerous.”
 

eh1eh

Blah Blah Blah
Aug 31, 2006
10,749
103
48
Under a Lone Palm
I don't know. If I go to Fucsh1tistan to make big bucks, who the hell am I to start demanding socialist serves from the country I left?
 

eh1eh

Blah Blah Blah
Aug 31, 2006
10,749
103
48
Under a Lone Palm
Yeah....cut to the bone, that is it.

This article says it very well......

Canada can’t play helicopter parent - The Globe and Mail

Can't say I agree fully with that article, but, beyond what our embassies are doing why should we be 'providing'. In Egypt we sent planes but Canadians had to pay the ticket. Sound like a good compromise to me. I'm not for abandoning our people but I don't think 'helicopter' service is what we should be doing either.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Idiots. I travel abroad all the time. The destination country/company pays me. I spend my money and pay taxes in Canada. My international business contributes to Canada's positive trade balance and lifts every Canadians standard of living.

I am subject to the laws and whatever else is going on where I travel. I won't go anywhere Canada has a travel advisory and I expect help from the Canadian government if I find myself in trouble. It doesn't mean they have to bail me out of a just legal system, but they should provide reasonable assistance appropriate to the situation.

This isn't the first time the Canadian foreign service has failed Canadians. Something is wrong with the system, from the PM down... In this case, it wasn't even lack of money or resources. As Canada sent jets to Tripoli and at least one returned empty as Canadians escaped with the assistance of other governments. Our response has been abysmal and embarrassing.
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
2,014
24
38
Calgary, AB
I don't know. If I go to Fucsh1tistan to make big bucks, who the hell am I to start demanding socialist serves from the country I left?

Well, considering most of those Canadians who work in the oil patch in Libya actually come home and live in Canada on their days off... you know, paying propery and various sales taxes, as well as limited income taxes (most of their income is earned abroad, but some is taxable as well as what they earn at home such as interest and capital gains on investments), I don't see why people are more hostile to these people than they were to dual passport holders who don't reside in the country at all but claim Canadian citizenship rights when the crap hits the fan in their chosen homes. Many of these men and women are on a 28 day rotation: they work 28 days at X_location, and on their 28 days off they travel home, to be with their families here in Cannuckistan. Its no different from people working in remote camps in the north...except their wages are paid by companies outside the country. In essence these workers are bringing more money into the country, by working abroad and living here, so let's discourage this as much as possible :roll:

As to the Op-Ed piece from the Globe and Mail, I agree that a large degree of responsibility does rest on the shoulder of the individual, and in the case of those working abroad, their employers, but governmental service is something that is supposed to be available to all citizens, otherwise why bother with the Foreign Affairs dept? We may not have the resource base of the US but we also don't have the same population of ex-pats to look after.

Now getting all upset about the way the gov't is handling this is OK to an extent, especially when there is waste in the form of unnecessary flights, but given past performances in these types of scenarios I am willing to cut the hierarchy a bit of a break. In these crisis situations, information doesn't always move as quickly as it needs to and sometimes events outpace reactions. I also remember they were also the ones who were responsible for getting thousands of people out of Lebannon a couple years ago... even though some evacuees were displeased with the level of accomodation on the trip out, instead of just being thankful to escape the violence. If the confusion resulted in loss of life, I might not be so forgiving but thus far it has been relatively harmless. Yes some people in the F.A. dept need a good kick in the can, and some contingency plans need updating, but thats as far as it needs to go, IMO.
 

jwmcq625

Nominee Member
Sep 14, 2007
95
1
8
Canadians in Libya and other volatile countries around the world are there by choice, and they should not expect the taxpayer's of Canada to fund their escape plans when they get into difficulties.
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
140
63
Backwater, Ontario.
:-( Some of you fuc kers make me sick. No one's asking for a helicopter for each and every citizen caught in Lybia.

IF Cannucks HAD made it to the airport, and flew out, you'd be cheering from the freakin rooftops.

Since it didn't happen-----------well fukkem.........no one asked them to go there. They're responsible for their own safety. Blah blah blah blah.........little wee us shouldn't be at all responsible for Canadian citizens.............more corporate tax cuts............yay.......that's the ticket.........and be sure to collect the taxes from the estates of any citizens who go killed while working out of country.........to the last drop.............suck suck suck..............dirty, underachieving con bastards.

Truth is Mackay is a dunce, and all the cons are way over their collective heads when it comes to world affairs. If I'm stuck in some shi thole which happens to blow up while I'm working on an oil rig (eg) why shouldn't I expect help from Canada?? I suppose embassies et al are only there to extract money from the host country...........suck suck suck.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
192
63
Nakusp, BC
:-( Some of you fuc kers make me sick. No one's asking for a helicopter for each and every citizen caught in Lybia.

IF Cannucks HAD made it to the airport, and flew out, you'd be cheering from the freakin rooftops.

Since it didn't happen-----------well fukkem.........no one asked them to go there. They're responsible for their own safety. Blah blah blah blah.........little wee us shouldn't be at all responsible for Canadian citizens.............more corporate tax cuts............yay.......that's the ticket.........and be sure to collect the taxes from the estates of any citizens who go killed while working out of country.........to the last drop.............suck suck suck..............dirty, underachieving con bastards.

Truth is Mackay is a dunce, and all the cons are way over their collective heads when it comes to world affairs. If I'm stuck in some shi thole which happens to blow up while I'm working on an oil rig (eg) why shouldn't I expect help from Canada?? I suppose embassies et al are only there to extract money from the host country...........suck suck suck.
Geezuz Nugs, I hope you didn't pop a blood vessel. I mean, I can see where your coming from, and how frustrating it is to have to see our country reduced to US ass wipe under Harper, but it really isn't worth blowing a gasket over dude. Maybe you should switch to decaf for a few days. Would miss you if you should fall off the forum because of a few ass hats.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
99
48
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
Can't say I agree fully with that article, but, beyond what our embassies are doing why should we be 'providing'. In Egypt we sent planes but Canadians had to pay the ticket. Sound like a good compromise to me. I'm not for abandoning our people but I don't think 'helicopter' service is what we should be doing either.

It's not like our citizens in those countries could predict what was going to happen or that they knew a violent revolution was about to start the very next day.

The above makes about as much sense as being stuck inside your house while it's burning to the ground and the fire department comes along..... but doesn't bring out the ladder or start hosing down the flames until you toss them your wallet.

Now before anybody points out that the fire department have to do their job of putting out the fire and trying to save your ass..... our government is supposed to do the same thing towards protecting its citizens..... otherwise why the hell do we have the government in the first place?

Say you decided to go to Egypt as a tourist to go see the pyramids or the nile..... you paid for your ticket there and return, but because of the uprising, your commercial flight cancels its trip back to pick you up and now your own country won't let you board the plane to come back home unless you pay them for a ticket.

You already spent your money on a ticket and they didn't show.... chances are, the average middle class joe who saved up for the trip doesn't have that extra money to spend on a third ticket...... so now they're stuck there and left to fend for themselves.

If it was someone who's lived in Egypt for years and hasn't returned to Canada for a long time, then no, I'd expect them to pay (it's not a black and white scenario)..... just as if I ended up living here in Australia for 10 years or more, called it home and started a life here, I wouldn't expect the Canadian government to bail me out and bring me home if something happened here..... but for those who were there for a planned short stay, visiting family or friends, or being a tourist..... they clearly had the intentions of returning home to Canada and thus, during a crisis, I'd expect my tax dollars to help them out to come home.
 
Last edited:

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,232
11,365
113
Low Earth Orbit
:-( Some of you fuc kers make me sick. No one's asking for a helicopter for each and every citizen caught in Lybia.

IF Cannucks HAD made it to the airport, and flew out, you'd be cheering from the freakin rooftops.

Since it didn't happen-----------well fukkem.........no one asked them to go there. They're responsible for their own safety. Blah blah blah blah.........little wee us shouldn't be at all responsible for Canadian citizens.............more corporate tax cuts............yay.......that's the ticket.........and be sure to collect the taxes from the estates of any citizens who go killed while working out of country.........to the last drop.............suck suck suck..............dirty, underachieving con bastards.

Truth is Mackay is a dunce, and all the cons are way over their collective heads when it comes to world affairs. If I'm stuck in some shi thole which happens to blow up while I'm working on an oil rig (eg) why shouldn't I expect help from Canada?? I suppose embassies et al are only there to extract money from the host country...........suck suck suck.

Canadian Oil and Gas Trade Mission to Libya

Strange how they were right on target for getting in before the mess.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
This is embarassing:

Trapped Albertans have few options for Libya escape

Canada’s rescue plan doesn’t even include clear directions to the port.

That’s what two stranded Alberta men have discovered, having found their way to Tripoli’s airport, only to learn Canada is no longer rescuing citizens — though a pair of Turkish ferries just might.

“We’re stuck in the airport tonight because we can’t go outside, and in the morning, we’re going to see if we can’t get on those ferries,” said Taber resident Rick Souther, speaking on his mobile phone from Tripoli.

“Basically, the British government, American government and Canadian government have left and we’re stuck here.

“We’re going to try and get out however we can.”

Souther and Calgarian Arif Pervez have spent the past week or so hiding with helpful villagers in the desert...

Trapped Albertans have few options for Libya escape | Michael Platt | Columnists | News | Calgary Sun

The 134-meter (440-foot) patrol frigate carrying 225 sailors and a Sea King helicopter on deck is expected to meet up as early as next week

Maybe the Canadians should join the Egyptians on the Tunisian border where they might be rescued by the Americans...
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,232
11,365
113
Low Earth Orbit
This is embarassing:

Trapped Albertans have few options for Libya escape

Canada’s rescue plan doesn’t even include clear directions to the port.

That’s what two stranded Alberta men have discovered, having found their way to Tripoli’s airport, only to learn Canada is no longer rescuing citizens — though a pair of Turkish ferries just might.

“We’re stuck in the airport tonight because we can’t go outside, and in the morning, we’re going to see if we can’t get on those ferries,” said Taber resident Rick Souther, speaking on his mobile phone from Tripoli.

“Basically, the British government, American government and Canadian government have left and we’re stuck here.

“We’re going to try and get out however we can.”

Souther and Calgarian Arif Pervez have spent the past week or so hiding with helpful villagers in the desert...

Trapped Albertans have few options for Libya escape | Michael Platt | Columnists | News | Calgary Sun
It was the Feds who sent them there and they are responsible for getting them out. http://www.international.gc.ca/commerce_missions/libya-libye/participants.aspx?lang=eng
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
In theory the Feds are responsible, but in reality, they delegated their responsibility to help Canadians stuck in Libya to a tiny village in the desert.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,232
11,365
113
Low Earth Orbit
Well then it looks like the Oil Delegation they sent before the uprising is there to stay permanent. How ****ing convenient is that?
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
11,330
539
113
59
Alberta
Prior to this blundering government, we would have had to ask our neighbors for a ride just to get our troops on the ground because we lacked the air lift and logistics due to Liberal cutbacks to our military.

Perhaps its time the Liberals and their followers stopped trying to exploit the present situation in Libya and focused on straightening out their impudent leadership and lack of vision.

Or do they want to stay in opposition indefinitely?