Nationalism vs. Internationalism

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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I'd like to have a serious discussion about this, because it seems like there is some fear-mongering going on by the right and the left which is spurred by these two ideals. For my part, nationalism is silly and extremely infantile, but I also wouldn't support internationalism that leads to a global fascist state.


Nationalism
involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a political entity defined in national terms, i.e. a nation. Often, it is the belief that an ethnic group has a right to statehood,[1] or that citizenship in a state should be limited to one ethnic group, or that multinationality in a single state should necessarily comprise the right to express and exercise national identity even by minorities.[2]

Nationalism emphasizes collective identity - a 'people' must be autonomous, united, and express a single national culture.[7] However, some nationalists stress individualism as an important part of their own national identity.[8]

Nationalism is inherently divisive because it highlights perceived differences between peoples, emphasizing an individual's identification with their own nation. The idea is also potentially oppressive because it submerges individual identity within a national whole, and gives elites or political leaders potential opportunities to manipulate or control the masses.[42] Much of the early opposition to nationalism was related to its geopolitical ideal of a separate state for every nation. The classic nationalist movements of the 19th century rejected the very existence of the multi-ethnic empires in Europe. Even in that early stage, however, there was an ideological critique of nationalism. That has developed into several forms of anti-nationalism in the western world. The Islamic revival of the 20th century also produced an Islamic critique of the nation-state.

The anti-racist critique of nationalism concentrates on the attitudes to other nations, and especially on the doctrine that the nation-state exists for one national group to the exclusion of others. This view emphasizes the chauvinism and xenophobia that have often resulted from nationalist sentiment. Norman Naimark relates the rise of nationalism to ethnic cleansing and genocide, including the Armenian Genocide, the Nazi Holocaust, the deportation of Chechens and Crimean Tartars under Stalin, the expulsion of Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia at the end of the Second World War, and the ethnic cleansing during the Yugoslav Wars in the 1990s.[47]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism




Internationalism is a political movement which advocates a greater economic and political cooperation among nations for the theoretical benefit of all. Partisans of this movement, such as supporters of the World Federalist Movement, claim that nations should cooperate because their long-term mutual interests are of greater value than their individual short term needs.

Internationalism is most commonly expressed as an appreciation for the diverse cultures in the world, and a desire for world peace. People who express this view believe in not only being a citizen of their respective countries, but of being a citizen of the world. Internationalists feel obliged to assist the world through leadership and charity.

Internationalists also advocate the presence of an international organization, such as the United Nations, and often support a stronger form of a world government.

Contributors to the current version of internationalism include Albert Einstein, who believed in a world government, and classified the follies of nationalism as "an infantile sickness".[1]

The ideal of many internationalists, among them world citizens, is to go a step further towards democratic globalization by creating a world government. However, this idea is opposed and/or thwarted by other internationalists, who believe any World Government body would be inherently too powerful to be trusted, or because they dislike the path taken by supranational entities such as the United Nations or the European Union and fear that a world government inclined towards fascism would emerge from the former. These internationalists are more likely to support a loose world federation in which most power resides with the national governments.


Internationalism (politics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
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Nationalism is infantile and silly? So the Liberal-Nationalists of 1848, who were fighting to overthrow Aristocrats and Bankers, were infantile and silly? Our world simply wouldn't be recognizable if it wasn't for the 1848 Revolutions.
So much for setting the floor for a fair discussion.


Fact of the matter is that no one has been nationalist in a long time. Hiter was a Nationalist for a period when he wished to free Germans of internationalist economic yoke (He was popular for that reason and won Time's man of the year) but then he became an Imperialist in the same category with Joseph Stalin, Germans became too Patriotic and followed him blindly, Patriotism than led to Chauvinism and Chauvinism is the same reason that Hitler invaded Poland and the same reason we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.



A real American Nationalist, not to be mistaken with a flag-patriot idiot, would be upset with the United States. A real nationalist would firstmost care about the American people and therefore would pull the troops back home, restore industry, fix the debt, return the means of subsistence (the American dream) and restore confidence in the nation.

That might sound "silly and infantile" to you, but it's a lot better than being a slave in your Marxist paradise, where all the proletariat have equal means to a Marxian-global means of subsistence of a pot of rice for a day's worth of labour.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Nationalism is infantile and silly? So the Liberal-Nationalists of 1848, who were fighting to overthrow Aristocrats and Bankers, were infantile and silly?
So much for setting the floor for a fair discussion.


Fact of the matter is that no one has been nationalist in a long time. Hiter was a Nationalist for a period when he wished to free Germans of internationalist economic yoke (He was popular for that reason and won Time's man of the year) but then he became an Imperialist in the same category with Joseph Stalin and Chauvinism isn't good for any country and it's the reason we are in Iraq and Afghanistan.


A real American Nationalist, not to be mistaken with a flag-patriot idiot, would be upset with the United States. A real nationalist would firstmost care about the American people and therefore would pull the troops back home, restore industry, fix the debt, return the means of subsistence (the American dream) and restore confidence in the nation.

That might sound "silly and infantile" to you, but it's a lot better than being a slave in your Marxist paradise.

The nationalism back then was used as an anchor because it was the easiest way to motivate people - people who were confined to believe what their state motivated them to believe.

That is infantile. Not stupid or ignorant.

As time passes, people are coming to the global realization (both meanings intended) that these liberal movements shouldn't be advertised with the tags 'In Britain' or 'In Canada'.
 

coldstream

on dbl secret probation
Oct 19, 2005
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This description of nationalism is in fact the description of another force that has actuated malevolent forces throughout history and that is TRIBALISM. The Nazis, the xenophobic and ethnic cleansing of the genocides of the last century, are all tribal, not national in character.

They are marked by conflict, by disregard for borders and by territorial expansionism, by racial profiling or membership by 'blood' and almost always by aspirations to empire and enlavement of other peoples. In fact the rise of Globalism is very much associated, the other side of the coin, of tribalism since it seeks to diminish all sense of national communities as a sovereign, integrated economic and moral constituencies, the only force that can contain tribalism.

Internationalism is in fact in control of the world through Global supranational agencies now (WTO, IMF, World Bank, UN, and especially especially an interrelated Global investment organism).. and it is leading to inevitable collapse of the system of sovereign nation states and a convulsive world wide economic collapse, and, World War, far more devastating than we have seen before.

This loss of stable borders and moral community is where your benign Internationalism and its running dogs are leading us. The new world leadership, as with all tribal cultures, is run by cliques of despots, intent on aggrandizement and conquest.
 
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mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Not at all. Patriotism merely means love of one's country. Nothing more, nothing less. A such, a patriot may also be a universal patriot in that he loves mankind.

Well if a patriot loves mankind, he should love mankind - not just his country. It's a bit of a paradox to love only your country, even if it is your country that develops the ideal to love mankind.

Your description of nationalism is in fact the description of another force that has actuated malevolent forces throughout history and that is TRIBALISM. The Nazis, the xenophobic and ethnic cleansing of the genocides of the last century, are all tribal, not national in character.

They are marked by conflict, by disregard for borders and territorial expansionism, by racial profiling of membership and almost always aspire to empire and enlaving other peoples. In fact the rise of Globalism is very much associated, the other side of the coin, of tribalism since it seeks to diminish all sense of national communities as a sovereign economic and moral constituent, the only force that can contain tribalism.

I've never heard that version of tribalism before - but it definitely seems more like nationalism than internationalism. Expansionist Nationalism is basically taking the ideals of one nation and spreading them - or forcing them rather - onto the entire population. Internationalism, by contrast, allows each nation to remain sovereign by ensuring one nation cannot hold power over any of the others.

It's pretty much the same idea as interdependence. The nation becomes more than 'self-sufficient' and is able to aid others if need be. It's the difference between just earning your keep and being powerful enough to help others. This can prevent you from being lazy and stupid.


And with respect to 'tribalism' - I just found this:

A child is born dependent and is celebrated, in an independent society, when they can say "I can do it for myself." However a tribal child is encouraged to grow beyond independence into interdependence, so they can say "I can do it for others". Truly successful tribes and organizations are by their nature inherently interdependent, whose elder leadership's multi-generational visioning skills are guiding and evolving diverse competing interests into completing interests, for the benefit of all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdependence

There is no way that that sounds anything like what you've described internationalism to be.

But you touched on a key aspect - the important thing here is the sovereignty of a nation. If the nation's sovereignty does not cause any harm to others, then there is nothing wrong with them being sovereign. The moment it causes harm to others - through war, propaganda, deceit - then their nationalism begins to damage the rest of the world.
 
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BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
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Isn't patriotism a form of nationalism?

Not the way I define.

Patriotism is love for one's country and people according to the Baals dictionary.

Nationalism is the belief in the superiority of one's country and people according to Baals dictionary.

Internationalism is a form of humor according to Baals dictionary. The Chinese won't let Internationalism happen.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Well if a patriot loves mankind, he should love mankind - not just his country. It's a bit of a paradox to love only your country, even if it is your country that develops the ideal to love mankind.

There's nothing in definition of patriotism limiting itself to one's own country. If I say I love this or that person, it does not necessarily mean I don't love others. In like manner, to say I'm a patriot (i.e. that I love my country) does not necessarily imply that I hate other countries. In fact, patriotism is a prerequisite for love of mankind. After all, how can you pretend to love mankind if you don't love your country? How can you pretend to love your country if you don't love your family? how can you pretend to love your family if you don't love yourself?

I think the reason patriotism has become such a taboo word for some is that they are confusing it with nationalism, which is something else entirely. I consider myself a patriot, yes, but certainly not a nationalist.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Not the way I define.

Patriotism is love for one's country and people according to the Baals dictionary.

Nationalism is the belief in the superiority of one's country and people according to Baals dictionary.

Internationalism is a form of humor according to Baals dictionary. The Chinese won't let Internationalism happen.
The Internationalists created the ROC.
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
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Baal's defintion of nationalism is in fact Chauvinism; the term as it was before it was taken by Feminists to describe men in general but it is possible to have a Chauvinist state without nationalism - especially ethnic nationalism.

Otherwise a Chauvinist state without nationalism would be a good description of Revolutionary France, the Civil War Soviet Union and to some extent the United States during the height of the Cold War, where the "American Way" was considered the best in the world and everything else was inferior.