"Afghan Mission" possibly accomplishing nothing

[mabudon]

Since the old topic "what are we doing in Afghanistan" is closed, I had to start a new topic since recent news indicates that we are probably not accomplishing anything.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ndoff-stalls-canadian-dam-project-in-kandahar

The strangest part is that from articles I have read in various sources this week, I get the impression that we are fairly ineffectual, given the control of much of the country is completely in the hands of "our friends" the Karzais. At this point, it honestly looks to me as if we are in the ridiculous position of basically having to stage a coup to overthrow the government we helped install in the first place.

The whole country is a giant cluster-schtup and seriously, anything we could actually do to have any sort of effect would be contrary to almost everything we have been told

How can we possibly effect change when the government is made up of and supported by people who are apparently our enemies??

 

[AnnaG]

I suppose it depends upon which view you take. I can see your view and agree with it. But, I can also think that doing stuff that enables women to stand up from under an extremely oppressive regime is actually doing something. There are probably other views, but that's one I can think of at the moment.

 

[mabudon]

I honestly do not believe any of the talking points about "women freed from oppression, young girls going to school". That kind of thing is cultural change, and is really not the business of other countries to change. I can't think of a perfect example, but I can easily imagine the tables being turned, and some hypothetical country where women are treated much in the same way as under radical Islam deciding that the way women in our country flaunt themselves in an unbecoming way is offensive and must be changed.

If a country with such a view (and again this is purely hypothetical) somehow invaded our country and gave us a whole bunch of new rules about the way it was going to be and forced compliance (at least in public) how quickly would Canadians "wake up and accept" the new ways??

There is no way to change an entire culture short of brutal oppression (see the way we "fixed" our native people in the last century for instance) and if that was truly the focus of our military mission then we should get the hell out now since somebody should have pointed out that it is not the kind of thing you do with military force.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Since the old topic "what are we doing in Afghanistan" is closed, I had to start a new topic since recent news indicates that we are probably not accomplishing anything.

Security standoff stalls Canadian dam project in Kandahar - thestar.com

The strangest part is that from articles I have read in various sources this week, I get the impression that we are fairly ineffectual, given the control of much of the country is completely in the hands of "our friends" the Karzais. At this point, it honestly looks to me as if we are in the ridiculous position of basically having to stage a coup to overthrow the government we helped install in the first place.

The whole country is a giant cluster-schtup and seriously, anything we could actually do to have any sort of effect would be contrary to almost everything we have been told

How can we possibly effect change when the government is made up of and supported by people who are apparently our enemies??

This dam is a showcase for our Libs-Cons establishment to show progress in Afghnistan and it is failing. A good non-ideological project that would show how Canada is doing good works for this benighted land.

The Taliban are no threat to us, just like the PLO, IRA, or Hamas are no threat to us. Al-Qaeda is on the run so we should leave today.

 

[AnnaG]

I honestly do not believe any of the talking points about "women freed from oppression, young girls going to school".

Ah, so the women there are still forced to wear veils, aren't going to school, etc. I see. You believe what you want to. I believe otherwise.

That kind of thing is cultural change, and is really not the business of other countries to change. I can't think of a perfect example, but I can easily imagine the tables being turned, and some hypothetical country where women are treated much in the same way as under radical Islam deciding that the way women in our country flaunt themselves in an unbecoming way is offensive and must be changed.

Nice point but apparently the women that get some education are pretty grateful for it. I can't say we'd see a whole lot of women happy at being ripped of the freedom to education and stuck into a slave's position. So your reverse analogy is a bit funny.

If a country with such a view (and again this is purely hypothetical) somehow invaded our country and gave us a whole bunch of new rules about the way it was going to be and forced compliance (at least in public) how quickly would Canadians "wake up and accept" the new ways??

As I said, I don't think any would. But this would be a direct opposite of what is apparently going on in Afghansitan. They seem to like being educated over there.

There is no way to change an entire culture short of brutal oppression (see the way we "fixed" our native people in the last century for instance) and if that was truly the focus of our military mission then we should get the hell out now since somebody should have pointed out that it is not the kind of thing you do with military force.

Really? You think that an oppressed people would have to be forced to change to something they like rather than recognizing it for themselves? lmao That's funny.
That looks tasty. I should try it. I think I will try it.
or
Someone is forcing me to try that tasty looking dish. lmao

The Taliban are no threat to us, just like the PLO, IRA, or Hamas are no threat to us. Al-Qaeda is on the run so we should leave today.

As long as they are kept to a relatively small size, that's true. If they ever got to be the size of Germany in the 30s they'd make a helluva mess. But, we should leave them alone and see how big they can grow.

Temujin (Ghengis Khan) started out being a child with no followers. Then he grew and a small nomadic tribe followed him. Then a few tribes. Then a few countries. etc etc etc

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

As long as they are kept to a relatively small size, that's true. If they ever got to be the size of Germany in the 30s they'd make a helluva mess. But, we should leave them alone and see how big they can grow.

Temujin (Ghengis Khan) started out being a child with no followers. Then he grew and a small nomadic tribe followed him. Then a few tribes. Then a few countries. etc etc etc

The Taliban cannot likely get too powerful, the people of Afghnanistan are very divided and have big countries nearby like India, Pakistan, Russia and Iran that covet their land. They worry very little about Canada.

 

[AnnaG]

The Taliban cannot likely get too powerful, the people of Afghnanistan are very divided and have big countries nearby like India, Pakistan, Russia and Iran that covet their land. They worry very little about Canada.

uhuh People didn't think Hitler was much of a threat either. Let the Taliban take over Afghanistan and they start letting Pakistan, Iran, etc. in. Next thing you know the Taliban has a lot of allies. What if they managed to unite the entire Muslim world?
Either way, I think it is obvious that we've helped and are helping the Afghans in some ways.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

uhuh Let the Taliban take over Afghanistan and they start letting Pakistan, Iran, etc. in. Next thing you know the Taliban has a lot of allies. What if they managed to unite the entire Muslim world?

The chane of that happening is the same as all of us winning the lottery this week. Zero.

Before 9/11, Afghanistan was in the middle of a two decade long civil war. The Taliban did not control the whole country. The coalition used the Pashtons in the north of the country to "defeat" the Taliban and kick them out of Kabul. The country is just splintered all over by language, race, culture, and religion if you can believe it.

Iran has been a fairly coherent country for over a thousand years and are neither Arab nor Afghan. They aren't joining another country anytime soon.

 

[mabudon]

"What if they managed to unite the whole Muslim world"??
Seriously that would be a hell of a lot better than the fractious mess "we" have to "deal with" now. IF such a thing came to pass, the selective meddling coming from all directions would probably slow down, and you wouldn't have outsiders playing silly games pitting one country against another. The US would be hard pressed to pull their idiotic bully routine against the enemy du jour. Israel would look a lot less useful.

I don't see the problem- but then I call BS on the "us versus them" and "they hate our freedoms" crap anyways, I am too smart for that childish nonsense.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

"What if they managed to unite the whole Muslim world"??
Seriously that would be a hell of a lot better than the fractious mess "we" have to "deal with" now. IF such a thing came to pass, the selective meddling coming from all directions would probably slow down, and you wouldn't have outsiders playing silly games pitting one country against another. The US would be hard pressed to pull their idiotic bully routine against the enemy du jour. Israel would look a lot less useful.

I don't see the problem- but then I call BS on the "us versus them" and "they hate our freedoms" crap anyways, I am too smart for that childish nonsense.

They will never unite, they will always be a fractious mess, but we can ignore much of it.

A short invasion in Afghan was okay, ten years is not. It draws us into a place we have no clue about and have no vital interests there. It was al-Qaeda, NOT the Taliban who did 9/11. The Taliban are as harmless to us as the IRA, PLO, or Hamas. They have not attacked us and will not. Afghanistan is as dangerous to us as Thailand. Not at all.

 

[Johnnny]

Like ive said before we got a whole wack of them but the place isnt going to change, its like a vietnam we are apart of....And after it went from finding osama to rebuilding, things just seemed to take a dive from there

 

[AnnaG]

The chane of that happening is the same as all of us winning the lottery this week. Zero.

*shrugs* It's an opinion. "chane"? lol

Before 9/11, Afghanistan was in the middle of a two decade long civil war. The Taliban did not control the whole country. The coalition used the Pashtons in the north of the country to "defeat" the Taliban and kick them out of Kabul. The country is just splintered all over by language, race, culture, and religion if you can believe it.

hhhmmm A history lesson. Like there are so few of them:

Afghanistan history - Google Search

Iran has been a fairly coherent country for over a thousand years and are neither Arab nor Afghan. They aren't joining another country anytime soon.

Coherent? You mean no-one understood them before 1000 years ago?

Iran allies with China to face the United States [Voltaire]

President of Iran woos allies in Latin America - Telegraph

CNSNews.com - Islamic and Leftist Allies Defend Iran?s Human Rights Record at U.N. Gathering

"What if they managed to unite the whole Muslim world"??
Seriously that would be a hell of a lot better than the fractious mess "we" have to "deal with" now. IF such a thing came to pass, the selective meddling coming from all directions would probably slow down, and you wouldn't have outsiders playing silly games pitting one country against another. The US would be hard pressed to pull their idiotic bully routine against the enemy du jour. Israel would look a lot less useful.

*shrugs*

I don't see the problem- but then I call BS on the "us versus them" and "they hate our freedoms" crap anyways, I am too smart for that childish nonsense.

uhuh Too smart to believe any of this stuff:
Taliban women - Google Search

They will never unite, they will always be a fractious mess, but we can ignore much of it.

Opinion.

A short invasion in Afghan was okay, ten years is not.

What would be the point in a short stint there as opposed to not going there at all?

It draws us into a place we have no clue about and have no vital interests there. It was al-Qaeda, NOT the Taliban who did 9/11. The Taliban are as harmless to us as the IRA, PLO, or Hamas. They have not attacked us and will not.

Opinion.

Afghanistan is as dangerous to us as Thailand. Not at all.

I agree that Afghanistan is no threat to us.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

*shrugs* It's an opinion. "chane"? lol

hhhmmm A history lesson. Like there are so few of them:

Afghanistan history - Google Search

Coherent? You mean no-one understood them before 1000 years ago?

Iran allies with China to face the United States [Voltaire]

President of Iran woos allies in Latin America - Telegraph

CNSNews.com - Islamic and Leftist Allies Defend Iran?s Human Rights Record at U.N. Gathering

*shrugs*

uhuh Too smart to believe any of this stuff:
Taliban women - Google Search

Opinion.

What would be the point in a short stint there as opposed to not going there at all? Opinion. I agree that Afghanistan is no threat to us.

These sections make it tough to respond.

I mean Iran has been a coherent country like China been.

I heard on the radio the host talking about we've been in Afghanistan too long and how the problem is the Taliban. It's not the Taliban, it's al-Qaeda, a distinction with a big difference. Perhaps now the Taliban are our enemy, since we've been wrecking their country for a decade, I would understand it. Time to give them some presents and leave.

 

[ironsides]

"Before he sends another U.S. soldier off to die or be maimed in Afghanistan, President-elect Obama needs to deliver the blunt message to the leaders of Pakistan and Afghanistan that we will no longer tolerate their complicity in the deaths of Americans and our allies, a slaughter that began on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, and continues to this day. Obama will soon own this aimless war if he does not somehow change that dynamic."

Read more: The Aimless War: Why Are We in Afghanistan? - TIME
​

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

"Before he sends another U.S. soldier off to die or be maimed in Afghanistan, President-elect Obama needs to deliver the blunt message to the leaders of Pakistan and Afghanistan that we will no longer tolerate their complicity in the deaths of Americans and our allies, a slaughter that began on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, and continues to this day. Obama will soon own this aimless war if he does not somehow change that dynamic." ​

Read more: The Aimless War: Why Are We in Afghanistan? - TIME​

Good article. The war is about money and drugs. And religion for the rubes.

I remember watching CNN a while back when a spy killed ten CIA agents, and CNN called them employees"!!!! What a joke.

Canada is there to test weapons and show how we can be an American flunky. And feed the military-industrial complex.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Here it says many Canadian soldiers are dying in Afghanistan not actually fighting but from roadside bombs. And they die from roadside bombs because the Canadian military can't afford helicopters to ferry soldiers around the country.

A deadly month, a deadly legacy in Afghanistan - The Globe and Mail

As British politicians are now acknowledging, sending ill-equipped troops to wage war is a recipe for disaster. In Afghanistan, the lack of helicopters has made soldiers extremely vulnerable to roadside bombs – the Taliban weapon of choice – which have accounted for about two of every three NATO deaths in July.
Britain's 9,000 troops in Helmand have 23 helicopters for transport; Canada only recently acquired this capability. Although the Canadian toll in July has not been as grim – only five soldiers have been killed – our casualty rate is still the highest among the allies. And, when surging U.S. troops turn their attention to Kandahar as they've been doing this month in Helmand, things could get a lot worse.

 

[gopher]

'possibly accomplishing nothing'


BLAME OBAMA!!!

 

[wulfie68]

I could almost agree that the Taliban isn't a threat except for the fact that allowed a group to shelter and train inside their borders, a group that has no compunction about exporting their brand of murder. In our justice system, the Taliban was an accessory to the crime Al-Qaeda committed, an offense nearly as severe as the actual offense.

If a country with such a view (and again this is purely hypothetical) somehow invaded our country and gave us a whole bunch of new rules about the way it was going to be and forced compliance (at least in public) how quickly would Canadians "wake up and accept" the new ways??

You don't get it: thats exactly what Al-Qaeda is trying to do. Their successes have been sporadic but that doesn't change their intent... which means they do need to be stepped on as hard as we can.

As for Afghanistan itself, the only way it will ever emerge from the mire is if we continue to rebuild the country, in spite of the efforts of the Taliban. Canadians feel like we're getting the short end of things because our troops are in the thick of it, with the Americans and the Brits, not just in the safer regions like most of the European NATO countries, and in that sense we are. That doesn't mean the best course of action is to abandon all the efforts made to this point.

 

[ironsides]

Good article. The war is about money and drugs. And religion for the rubes.

I remember watching CNN a while back when a spy killed ten CIA agents, and CNN called them employees"!!!! What a joke.

Canada is there to test weapons and show how we can be an American flunky. And feed the military-industrial complex.

I just quoted a article from Time Magazine, in no way do I support it with the exception that President Obama and the UN could have had this mighty battle they keep saying is coming a month ago. I think the Taliban have been given enough warning that we are coming to annihilate them. They do seem impressed and are killing enough of us to make that clear. I say turn the troops loose and let them end this politicians will only drag it on.

Just a little reminder of what it is all about.

[PPT]
911_Jour-1.pps

 

[mabudon]

Wulfie and ironsides, did you even read the article I linked in the first post? The "Taliban" are apparently not much of a problem compared to our "good friends", the stupid afghan fake-government we helped install