Forum members opinion poll

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
I guess there is no getting away from the fact that the Federal Government is short of money. From my view there is two solutions to this...........1. Borrow the money needed and 2. Raise taxes. So if you have an opinion you can simply write "B" for borrow or "T" for tax or "O" for other means.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Raise the taxes and cut the services, that would be my solution. Government must be absolutely ruthless when it comes to balancing the budget, it is short term pain for long term gain.

But that is not the conservative way, the conservative way is to borrow. They don't mind cutting services, especially for the poor. But they are absolutely, irrevocably opposed to tax increases. They would much rather rack up huge deficits and astronomical debt than increase taxes. That is where I disagree with them.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
192
63
Nakusp, BC
Ya! Screw the disabled, elderly and infirm. Screw education and health care. Us healthy citizens are sick of helping the helpless. What is mine is mine. Keep your grubby hands off it. We don't need any free loaders around here!
 

eyesears

New Member
Mar 17, 2010
16
0
1
Ontario
I'd be fine with either although I'd hope for neither. However, I think whatever sacrifice society is forced to make, our Government must as well. Taxing and then giving themselves a raise is not acceptable. Oh, and that includes slush funds for various perks. If it's a tough economic time, then lets see them adjust their budget to bare bones..

EyesEars
 

selin

Electoral Member
Feb 8, 2010
510
6
18
37
Turkey
in my country , we suffer from both B&T but rasing taxes and other choices are more preferable . Borrowing from who? and a country must accept to be slave of that country as well to the day when he pays it.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
Raise the taxes and cut the services, that would be my solution. Government must be absolutely ruthless when it comes to balancing the budget, it is short term pain for long term gain.

But that is not the conservative way, the conservative way is to borrow. They don't mind cutting services, especially for the poor. But they are absolutely, irrevocably opposed to tax increases. They would much rather rack up huge deficits and astronomical debt than increase taxes. That is where I disagree with them.

Interesting you should say that Sir Joseph. I just read an article detailing the way conservative governments act and it is a rather chilling look at the conservative mind. One that is based above all on unenlightened self interest. I have included the article below. It is rather long, but worth a read if you want a glimpse into the callousness of conservative thinking.

Choice
Linda Somerville
Albertans have a philosophical choice to make, a choice between
"every man for himself" and "we're all in this together."
THE ALBERTA CONSERVATIVES, and to an even more extreme degree,
the Wildrose Alliance Party, favour the former approach. If they
believe in government at all, they see its role as purely the protec-
tion of individual rights (but only those of the "severely normal")
and property rights (especially of electrical and energy companies).
They believe in a Darwinian world where the strongest prevail. If
some fall by the wayside in this ruthless competition for a piece
of the economic pie, then charity,not government assistance, is the
answer. They do not question the need for food banks in the richest
province in one of the wealthiest countries on earth and cheerfully
chip in a can of beans or two, and maybe a turkey at Christmas. They
dress up to attend fancy galas to raise money for charity, galas
where they congratulate themselves on their selfless generosity
as they bid tax-deductible dollars on gold-plated vacation packages
or dinner with the premier. Even the long-standing universal drug
plan for seniors is being recast as a means-tested charity for only the
most destitute.

But because people subscribing to this philosophy are often "self-
made men," they have little genuine empathy for those who struggle.
They are especially loath to part with their gains, especially not in
taxes used to effect a redistribution of wealth and opportunity to
those down on their luck. They do not see the flat tax as the greatest
redistribution of wealth in the province's history. ($5 billion a
year) Instead, they complain about public heath care being unsustain-
able and exhort those who consume public services to take responsibil-
ity for themselves. They have no problem with funding going to pri-
vate schools or private nursing homes or private clinics because
these options offer free market "choice" to the well-heeled. They
are a self-righteous lot comfortable in their greed, their exclusivity,
because they have "earned it." Only those large companies too big to
fail should be allowed a sense of entitlement. They call those who
protest "whiners", write them off as "left-wing nuts" or "the usual
suspects" or "special interest groups." Because the conservatives
are motivated chiefly by self-interest, they cannot conceive that
others might believe in the concept of social justice.

In opposition to this market-driven approach are the rest of us, who
understand that we cannot go it alone, who see government as the
most efficient and fairest way to fund not only police and fire and
transportation services but also to create a just society, a society
where children are schooled regardless of family income, where
the sick and the elderly and the mentally ill are cared for without
going bankrupt, where the home less are sheltered and where people can
earn a living wage and the dignity that goes along with it. None of
us likes paying taxes, but we recognize that those taxes provide a decent society and are our insurance against the vicissitudes of life, vicissitudes that may afflict our neighbours today but may strike us tomorrow. Even the most
selfish among us must realize that insurance is cheapest when risk is
spread amongst the largest number.

Even the least compassionate must know that government services,
even if funded by higher taxes, are a bargain for us as well as for the
less fortunate. Strong social programs, particularly public medical
care, are even a boon for business. In the United States, for example,
Starbucks and General Motors pay more for health insurance than for
coffee or for steel, respectively. Still, the neo-conservatives in
the States are fighting viciously against President Obama's attempt
at health care reform. A fascinating book by American Thomas Frank,
The Wrecking Crew, spells out the neo-conservative agenda in chilling detail. Frank maintains that misgovernment is not an accident, not the result of a
few bad apples, but a deliberate
policy designed to create a public
cynical about government. Because conservatives do not like govern-
ment, they see effective government as a threat. According to Frank,
conservatives deliberately attack, undermine, and under-fund the civil
service because an effective civil service will deliver good programs,
and the public will thus come to see government as a solution to
their problems, a result that is an anathema to free market conser-
vatives.They demonize public service labour unions as only promoting
their members' self-interest. They outsource and privatize as much as
possible because such activities, though more expensive, not only
funnel monies to their friends (that is, campaign supporters) but also
remove such contractors from public accountability. Although Frank was
writing on his observations about the effect of conservative policies in the United States, it is not difficult to see the parallels in Alberta. He sugests that even the huge financial deficits run up by the Republicans
under Reagan and Bush serve a double purpose: in the short run,
channeling taxpayer money to private contractors; and, in the long
run, ensuring that, even if a more progressive government is elected,
that government will be hamstrung in its efforts to strengthen the
social safety net. Conservatives in Alberta were never more
enthusiastic than when they were slaying the deficit bogeyman. The
few years of surpluses left them floundering. Instead of saving
money for recession times such as the present, they shovelled this
embarrassment of riches out the door as "Ralph-bucks."
Right now, Alberta is at a crossroads. The long-ruling Tories are
feeling threatened, and the most obvious threat comes from the
extreme right, from disaffected conservatives who seem to be
alarmed, not by cuts to social programs, but by what they perceive as
the government's profligate spending. Premier Stelmach appointed
Ted Morton, a fiscal hawk, to cut billions from the budget and to end
Albertans chowing down atthe"all-you-can-eat buffet." Certainly, the
Conservatives have mismanaged the economy, and the recession has
highlighted this mismanagement. But the recession has also provided
those on the right with the excuse to do what, philosophically, they
have wanted to do all along, eviscerate the public services on which
all Albertans rely. It is time for Albertans to stand up and take back
their province from the vested interests that would undermine everything that has been decent about our society. It is time to stop the wrecking crew. A wise African proverb says, "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together."
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
" Albertans have a philosophical choice to make, a choice between
"every man for himself" and "we're all in this together."
THE ALBERTA CONSERVATIVES, and to an even more extreme degree,
the Wildrose Alliance Party, favour the former approach."

You gotta wonder if those jerks every stop to think they may end up in dire straits themselves some day. In fact many of them do.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Thanks for the article, Bar. That really confirms my impression about Alberta, it is a very conservative (small ‘c’ conservative) place. Many Albertans in this forum deny it, but that is the widespread impression.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Ya! Screw the disabled, elderly and infirm. Screw education and health care. Us healthy citizens are sick of helping the helpless. What is mine is mine. Keep your grubby hands off it. We don't need any free loaders around here!

Nobody is talking of screwing these things, Cliffy. However, the pain must be spread around (and there will be plenty of pain, more than enough to go around). I don't mind paying higher taxes. However, I want to see others make sacrifices as well. If I am going to pay a few thousand more every year, I would like to see at least some cuts to most of the programs.

Indeed, I will support tax increases only if spending is decreased, if the overall budget this year is smaller than that last year. I want to see projections of significantly lower budget deficit (disappearing totally in a few years), only then will I agree to pay more taxes.

Unfortunately, Harper has done none of these things. He has increased spending every year he has been in office, he has cut taxes, and he has racked up huge deficits. He has done exactly opposite of what I would like to see happen. I would like to see sensible steps taken towards balancing the budget.
 
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SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
in my country , we suffer from both B&T but rasing taxes and other choices are more preferable . Borrowing from who? and a country must accept to be slave of that country as well to the day when he pays it.

Borrowing from its own citizens, and from China.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
in my country , we suffer from both B&T but rasing taxes and other choices are more preferable . Borrowing from who? and a country must accept to be slave of that country as well to the day when he pays it.

Well that's just it- with the world recession you have to wonder who has the extra money to lend to all the other countries in dire straits. Of course it's all just money on paper anyway- probably not much to back it up. I guess sh*t will hit the fan when they call in the loans.
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
397
8
18
Cambridge, Ontario
Ya! Screw the disabled, elderly and infirm. Screw education and health care. Us healthy citizens are sick of helping the helpless. What is mine is mine. Keep your grubby hands off it. We don't need any free loaders around here!

If we want to be able to provide those things in 10 years - we will need to raise taxes and cut unnecessary expenses now. Which would include staff reductions at the civil service and government (I'm talking reducing the # of MPs, senators and MLAs), and cutting staff (civil service). And I'm not talking just at the federal level, but also the provincial level.

If nothing is done - in 10 years we simply will not be able to afford health care, CPP, OAS - whether you paid into all your life or not. The remaining tax base will be too small to support it at acceptable levels.

Borrowing just delays the problem - it doesn't solve it.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
If we want to be able to provide those things in 10 years - we will need to raise taxes and cut unnecessary expenses now. Which would include staff reductions at the civil service and government (I'm talking reducing the # of MPs, senators and MLAs), and cutting staff (civil service). And I'm not talking just at the federal level, but also the provincial level.

If nothing is done - in 10 years we simply will not be able to afford health care, CPP, OAS - whether you paid into all your life or not. The remaining tax base will be too small to support it at acceptable levels.

Borrowing just delays the problem - it doesn't solve it.

I think you have it pegged. Throw out the old trough in Ottawa and build another one about 1/3 the size. Just one thing that makes you sick is these guys per diem allowances when travelling. Who else in the world gets to spend $25- $30 on breakfast. Makes you want to puke.
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
73
48
Winnipeg
"If we want to be able to provide those things in 10 years - we will need to raise taxes and cut unnecessary expenses now. Which would include staff reductions at the civil service and government (I'm talking reducing the # of MPs, senators and MLAs), and cutting staff (civil service). And I'm not talking just at the federal level, but also the provincial level."

Let me repeat JLM: pegger, you got it pagged!

Why would our country with 10% of population of our Southern neighbour need a House just slightly smaller than theirs? Why would our country need a Senate (adding insult to injury - unelected and nothing more than a collection of ass-kissers - for a longer term) be even larger than theirs?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
"If we want to be able to provide those things in 10 years - we will need to raise taxes and cut unnecessary expenses now. Which would include staff reductions at the civil service and government (I'm talking reducing the # of MPs, senators and MLAs), and cutting staff (civil service). And I'm not talking just at the federal level, but also the provincial level."

Let me repeat JLM: pegger, you got it pagged!

Why would our country with 10% of population of our Southern neighbour need a House just slightly smaller than theirs? Why would our country need a Senate (adding insult to injury - unelected and nothing more than a collection of ass-kissers - for a longer term) be even larger than theirs?

Y.J. - Are you suggesting dismantling an "old boys" club? :smile::smile:
I think you've been taking those I.Q. pills again.........:lol::lol:
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
73
48
Winnipeg
"Y.J. - Are you suggesting dismantling an "old boys" club?
I think you've been taking those I.Q. pills again........."

JLM, please learn to stop while you are ahead.

You have this silly habit of ruining your sensible first sentence with a totally idiotic second sentence

We've through this before. Can't you learn?
 
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