Dion's national program brings hope

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Oshawa
June 27, 2008
Richard Gwyn

Ever since he announced his "green shift" carbon tax a week ago, Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion gives the impression of walking, for the first time in his two years in the job, with a spring in his step.
While Prime Minister Stephen Harper has pronounced Dion's plan as "crazy," Canadians themselves don't appear to believe this.
Rather, Canadians seem to be ready to at least consider seriously a plan that would impose heavier taxes on them for the sake of combating climate change but with (depending on income) part or all of this coming back to them in the form of compensating tax cuts.
There may be another reason why Dion's scheme is going over better than all the political commentators anticipated. This is that it's a pan-Canadian program.
To a substantial extent, Canadian politics is no longer about Canadian politics. It's now largely about the politics of the provinces or regions, or about the politics of identity or ethnic groups.
National programs have just about vanished from our agenda. Thus, our national health-care program now consists of 10 provincial health-care programs.
So far as climate change is concerned we were, until Dion's announcement, well on our way to having 10 climate change programs, each designed to suit the interests of each province.
While media commentators have been extraordinarily slow to recognize this, in many respects Canada is no longer a nation-state in the common meaning of the term but is instead an ever more decentralized alliance of 10 provincial states.
What twigged my thoughts on this matter was a recent, and excellent, column in the National Post by Rudyard Griffiths, co-founder of the Dominion Institute.
Griffith's column was mournful and elegiac. Canada's "civic compact" is being dissolved. The federal government has "lost the momentum, if not the moral authority, to create the kinds of national programs and institutions that previous generations saw as essential to our sense of shared nationhood."
Griffiths attributes much of this to Ottawa's response to the particular challenge to Canadian nationhood posed by Quebec. By yielding to just about every Quebec demand for autonomy, it has enabled Quebec to "achieve sovereignty in everything but name."
He's absolutely right. But as Quebec has gone, so just about every province is now going. Today, the federal government functions as little more than a combination of a note-taking secretariat and an automatic teller machine.
Thus, not only does Ottawa now account for the smallest share of national spending by any central government in the world, but almost all of its considerable financial transfers to the provinces are non-conditional. This means they can be spent any which way by any province, in contrast to the U.S. and Australia where almost all such transfers are conditional or can only be spent on agreed objectives in agreed ways.
Even as a symbol of Canada's "shared nationhood," Ottawa is fading away. The new National Portrait Gallery, which will embody so much of national achievement and memory, is to be offered to whichever city will pay the most for it. That's good for the winning city, but why should anyone bother to visit a national capital where there's nothing for them to learn about their country and its history?
Griffiths ends by writing that, "The country is fast approaching a watershed."
I believe we're already near to coming out on that watershed's other side.
Except for one thing. In their at least cautiously approving initial response to Dion's "green shift" program, Canadians may be gearing themselves up to say out loud that they want to live, not in an agglomeration of statelets but in a country, in a national community, in a society of which the whole is larger than the sum of its parts.

http://www.thestar.com/World/Columnist/article/450056

 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
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50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
Personally, I am against any gov't tax existing or to come because gov't itself cannot seem to be able to deal with the money efficiently and/or effectively. IOW, gov't is the worst waster of money there is.
Besides that there is a better way of getting people to do things than by hitting them in the wallet; peer pressure. It does no good to take more money away from people who have little to begin with. That's why we spend so much on welfare and the like.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
I'm less enthused by carbon tax than I was prior to oil spiking $100 a barrel. The market will regulate green at these prices. A costly bureaucracy means nothing at this point.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
99
48
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
Dion's plan is, as Harper claimed, Crazy.

He plans to tax companies for the pollution they cause, which in turn taxes us, in not only our home feul but in our cars.

He claims it'll be balanced out by reductions to how much is taken off on our income tax.

^ Does anybody see how much of a scam this is?

I suppose not, since most here never went through the BST/HST fiasco here in the Maritimes. Allow me to shed some light on that situation and what exactly is happening here:

Back when everybody here was complaining about the GST and PST being placed on many of the products and services we used and bought everyday, the Liberals got this wonderful idea of creating the Blended Sales Tax AKA: Harmonized Sales Tax ~ In which they took the 7% GST and the 11% PST and merged them together and reduced it:

So where some products had a 18% tax increase on them, it went down to 15%. Sounds great right?

Wrong..... What occured was that not everything here was being taxed with both taxes in the first place, and some products were only 7% or 11%. Now anything that was only 7% or 11% was now 15% on top of what you paid.

It was good for the products that were at 18% and moved them to 15%, but now the Liberals were snatching more money in taxes on more products then they did before, while throwing us a bone on the select few things that were at 18%.

And here they go again, trying to trick people into thinking this is such a great idea and that what we'll pay on fuel taxes etc. will be balanced in our income taxes.

Here's where they d*ck us over:

Not everybody files their income tax, and not everybody gets any money back on their income taxes to begin with (Depending on your situation) but everybody needs to buy gas and to buy products that need fossil fuels to develop or transport them. They will get more money back from us through this carbon BS Tax and on more people then they ever would have through income taxes.

Immigrants and new comers to the country don't have the opportunity to file income taxes to Canada until they get their citizenship...... but the government can still suck money out of them with this carbon tax.

So in a nutshell, what will happen is Dion is trying to trick us into thinking we're going to get this great deal on our income taxes, while grabbing more and more money out of us through our everyday lives.

And I bet you that if one decided to calculate how much money we put into this carbon tax per year individually, that we wouldn't see the same return on our income taxes, and thus, we just got suckered into another useless money grab and we're now losing more money then we did in the past.

I'm not trying to say this in some anti-global warming mind set.... but in the mind set that we're all about to get screwed over financially over something that has no actual substance to it, let alone any foreseeable effect on how better we will live.... when I know we're going to be screwed worse then we are now.

This whole plan of Dions' Smells to High Hell of the HST/BST scam put on us in the maritimes and I sure as hell won't vote for him.... not like I ever was going to.

It seems that the only thing that ever occurs between the people and the government, is that the people will complain something is wrong or is a big problem, then the government gives us some plan that sounds all fancy and nice, only to screw us even more in the end. You ask for lowered taxes, they lower them..... in a way so they can add further taxes on something else to get more taxes from you..... which this is.

The plan is corrupt and nobody in their right mind should follow this plan..... it's stupid, it's two faced, and it can not be trusted.
 

Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
4,968
36
48
Dion's plan is, as Harper claimed, Crazy.

He plans to tax companies for the pollution they cause, which in turn taxes us, in not only our home feul but in our cars.

He claims it'll be balanced out by reductions to how much is taken off on our income tax.

^ Does anybody see how much of a scam this is?

I suppose not, since most here never went through the BST/HST fiasco here in the Maritimes. Allow me to shed some light on that situation and what exactly is happening here:

Back when everybody here was complaining about the GST and PST being placed on many of the products and services we used and bought everyday, the Liberals got this wonderful idea of creating the Blended Sales Tax AKA: Harmonized Sales Tax ~ In which they took the 7% GST and the 11% PST and merged them together and reduced it:

So where some products had a 18% tax increase on them, it went down to 15%. Sounds great right?

Wrong..... What occured was that not everything here was being taxed with both taxes in the first place, and some products were only 7% or 11%. Now anything that was only 7% or 11% was now 15% on top of what you paid.

It was good for the products that were at 18% and moved them to 15%, but now the Liberals were snatching more money in taxes on more products then they did before, while throwing us a bone on the select few things that were at 18%.

And here they go again, trying to trick people into thinking this is such a great idea and that what we'll pay on fuel taxes etc. will be balanced in our income taxes.

Here's where they d*ck us over:

Not everybody files their income tax, and not everybody gets any money back on their income taxes to begin with (Depending on your situation) but everybody needs to buy gas and to buy products that need fossil fuels to develop or transport them. They will get more money back from us through this carbon BS Tax and on more people then they ever would have through income taxes.

Immigrants and new comers to the country don't have the opportunity to file income taxes to Canada until they get their citizenship...... but the government can still suck money out of them with this carbon tax.

So in a nutshell, what will happen is Dion is trying to trick us into thinking we're going to get this great deal on our income taxes, while grabbing more and more money out of us through our everyday lives.

And I bet you that if one decided to calculate how much money we put into this carbon tax per year individually, that we wouldn't see the same return on our income taxes, and thus, we just got suckered into another useless money grab and we're now losing more money then we did in the past.

I'm not trying to say this in some anti-global warming mind set.... but in the mind set that we're all about to get screwed over financially over something that has no actual substance to it, let alone any foreseeable effect on how better we will live.... when I know we're going to be screwed worse then we are now.

This whole plan of Dions' Smells to High Hell of the HST/BST scam put on us in the maritimes and I sure as hell won't vote for him.... not like I ever was going to.

It seems that the only thing that ever occurs between the people and the government, is that the people will complain something is wrong or is a big problem, then the government gives us some plan that sounds all fancy and nice, only to screw us even more in the end. You ask for lowered taxes, they lower them..... in a way so they can add further taxes on something else to get more taxes from you..... which this is.

The plan is corrupt and nobody in their right mind should follow this plan..... it's stupid, it's two faced, and it can not be trusted.


Halper is crazy.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
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Saint John, N.B.
The only hope Dion's carbon tax plan brings is to the members of the Conservative Party of Canada..........hope for a Conservative majority government.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
210
63
In the bush near Sudbury
As usual, it's the low income earners who take the shyte-kicking. We have to pay the pump price, but get exempt from tax by virtue of poverty.... Where do I go for the job as PM (or facsimilie)
 
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TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
Of course it's an idiotic plan, but it's the darling of the media. Even though the liberals even stole the name from some respectable business, but that's not important.

Dion might claim it will be 'revenue neutral', but I've heard quite a few claims about, oh, doing away with the GST, stuff like that...
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
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I would trust Dion's plan a lot quicker than I would Harper's. Dion was a college professor. He knows about economics. One thing I can tell you is that Dion would never have run up our debt like Mulroney. Remember Mulroney? He's the guy Harper meets every month. I don't know what they discuss........Maybe they discuss the best knee pads for the Washington trips.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
99
48
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
I would trust Dion's plan a lot quicker than I would Harper's. Dion was a college professor.

I've met plenty of dumb professors in my day, no brownie points in my books yet.

He knows about economics.

So he'd know how to scam and mask it so that it appears clean to the public's untrained eyes? I'd believe it.

The funny thing is that the Liberals did jack-shat with Kyoto, pollution in Canada got even worse under Dion as Environment Minister (Which many are quick to forget about) ~ But now everybody is glowing with joy and glee that he's about to tax our asses to death.

That makes perfect sense.

One thing I can tell you is that Dion would never have run up our debt like Mulroney. Remember Mulroney? He's the guy Harper meets every month. I don't know what they discuss........Maybe they discuss the best knee pads for the Washington trips.

Perhaps.... but at least they have plans, take action and get some results..... name me 5 memorable things the Liberals did in the entire 1990's while they were in power that improved our way of life?

I remember plenty of Military cut backs to the joke of a froce we once had (We had problems even meeting our peacekeeping roles due to lack of funding), don't forget all that sponsorship scandal which was one of the main reasons why the Liberals were tossed out in the first place...... For my area of the country, there was the BST/HST scam they threw on us......

Frig we voted the Liberals out of power for a damn reason, and now just a couple of years later, we have people wanting to vote them back in?

Frig people, stop being so 2 dimensional..... vote for some other parties besides the "Good Cop/Bad Cop" Routine.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,609
99
48
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
I didn't say he taught economics, I said he knew about economics!!

He knows about Economics? Hell, so do I..... I even took a grade 12 high school class on Economics for an entire year..... Wow... I'm Qualified by those standards!

Of course I "Know about" Quantim Physics.... in which I have heard of it.... that doesn't mean I "Know" it.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
He knows about Economics? Hell, so do I..... I even took a grade 12 high school class on Economics for an entire year..... Wow... I'm Qualified by those standards!

Of course I "Know about" Quantim Physics.... in which I have heard of it.... that doesn't mean I "Know" it.

For God's sake!
Stephan Dion has a PHD in sociology. He taught Public administration and political science. Economics play a heavy role in either of those fields.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Dions national program brings hope! For what? Anyone with any sympathys for these suited twats is insane thier only purpose is to suck and blow for the corporations, read the signs, the wealthy get wealthier the the middle gets raped the poor get forgotten. Arrest the wealthy imprison the bankers sieze thier wealth and sterilize thier children. Socialism or death.